Declaring Realisation Prematurely

[Bindi]

You asked me I thought Buddha was deluded regarding his path, I said not at all. Then I posted his words on what he recommend on what people should actually do regarding pursuing the path of enlightenment.

 

Paraphrasing the above text, he said that one should...

 

1. Meditate

2. Follow the Dharma

3. Let go of desire

 

And, that it is you who must make the effort to do so (no master can do it for you). When you do, you realize that existence is really just an illusion and will be free of sorrow. He calls this the shining way of brightness and clarity.

 

 

 

Wouldn’t letting go of desire be the goal of meditation and following the Dharma according to your quote?

 

“But if you meditate 

And follow the dharma 

You will free yourself from desire.”

 

Is ‘freeing oneself from desire’ a transcendental truth to be realised?

 

What about seeing that things are impermanent, and understanding that existence is illusion? These seem pretty transcendental to me.

[Jeff]

Wouldn’t letting go of desire be the goal of meditation and following the Dharma according to your quote?

 

“But if you meditate And follow the dharma 

You will free yourself from desire.”

 

Is ‘freeing oneself from desire’ a transcendental truth to be realised?

 

What about seeing that things are impermanent, and understanding that existence is illusion? These seem pretty transcendental to me.

Meditating in this context is really more like residing or abiding. Not a doing with a intended goal.

 

But, if you think that seeing things are impermanent and understanding that existence is a transcendental goal, I certainly have no problem with that.

[Bindi]

Meditating in this context is really more like residing or abiding. Not a doing with a intended goal.

 

But, if you think that seeing things are impermanent and understanding that existence is a transcendental goal, I certainly have no problem with that.

 

 

I asked “Wouldn’t letting go of desire be the goal of meditation and following the Dharma”

 

... and following the Dharma... is this also residing, and not a doing with an intended goal?

Edited December 15, 2016 by Bindi

[dwai]

It would us good to read the Ashtavakra Gita. 

[Everything]

When buddha says let go of desire, he is talking about letting go of resistance, which basically means a clouded desire not pure desire. Pure desire is simply that which is wanted. Like, I enjoy to drink water when I am thirsty. Pure desire. Unclouded. Clouded resistance added to desire would be like "I cannot poor my own water cause I am afraid god will punish me if I drink too much clean water or perhaps I will become a toilet if I shower too much, HELP!" That is the thing he is talking about that we should let go of. Not pure desire. The translation is completely wrong. Cause there exists no desire to let go of desire, it's simply retarded to say that in english.

Pure desire is you simply want to feel good and you deserve to feel good as it is natural to feel good and the moment you wanna try and let go of being content with contentment that's when you hurt yourself and that is when people go jumping off buildings and that's when fireman come to clean up the red mess its disgusting and dont think it helps your souls progress very much although I don't think its that big of a deal either so dont make it a big deal cause desire is simply natural and normal. Buddha is not a person who intends for everyone to "just let go of desire and just go to hell cause who gives a fuck anyway."

Rather he wants people to let go of resistance towards the knowledge of being in paradise.

Where you use the wordt desire, buddha is talking about the struggle the holding on to what causes pain. He tells us to let go of that. Not desire... desire causes no pain. It is the resistance that causes pain. The thought of "I cannot have that." The thought of "I am not worthy." These things are what causes the pain. Not the desire itself. The desire itself simply lets you know what you want. What thought feels good or better to you. That's it! Pure desire, pure innocence. Pure nature. Pure life. You cannot let go of that which you are. Infact, if you literally let go of everything, pure desire is all that remains. It is your pure core vibration, which is powerful and very attractive. The reason all that you desire, you currently do not experience, is because you are either 1 holding it away consciously or not, or 2 you are holding on to that which doesn't belong to you consciously or not. Let go of that which doesn't belong to you, which isn't OF YOU. So simply let go of everything you can let go of and you will remain and that is paradise as is your nature. As is who you are as your life is intended by you and You capital Y bigger YOU than soul.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Everything

[Jeff]

I asked “Wouldn’t letting go of desire be the goal of meditation and following the Dharma”

 

... and following the Dharma... is this also residing, and not a doing with an intended goal?

In this context, maybe think of Dharma as like the natural order of the universe. It is sort of like saying, go with the natural flow. To me, the quoted verse is very "Taoist" (one of the reasons I posted it).

[Bindi]

It would us good to read the Ashtavakra Gita. 

 

 

Thanks Dwai, I did read some of the Ashtavakra Gita, and I find various descriptions of it as ‘radical non dualism’ and ‘radical unity of Universal Consciousness’ to be quite apt. At its most radical are verses such as:

 

“You are really unbound and action-less, self-illuminating and spotless already. The cause of your bondage is that you are still resorting to stilling the mind.”

 

“You are not bound by anything. What does a pure person like you need to renounce? Putting the complex organism to rest, you can go to your rest.”

 

I personally tend to look at the other side of the equation, as I focus almost exclusively on the ‘causes of my bondage’ and trying to unravel these causes.

[dwai]

 

Thanks Dwai, I did read some of the Ashtavakra Gita, and I find various descriptions of it as ‘radical non dualism’ and ‘radical unity of Universal Consciousness’ to be quite apt. At its most radical are verses such as:

 

“You are really unbound and action-less, self-illuminating and spotless already. The cause of your bondage is that you are still resorting to stilling the mind.”

 

“You are not bound by anything. What does a pure person like you need to renounce? Putting the complex organism to rest, you can go to your rest.”

 

I personally tend to look at the other side of the equation, as I focus almost exclusively on the ‘causes of my bondage’ and trying to unravel these causes.

 

 

These are factual statements. They seem radical because the ego mind still is lodged in the center-stage of our apparent being-ness

[Bindi]

In this context, maybe think of Dharma as like the natural order of the universe. It is sort of like saying, go with the natural flow. To me, the quoted verse is very "Taoist" (one of the reasons I posted it).

 

 

Yet stories of Buddha’s enlightenment tend to focus more on his determination than going with the flow, and this is more the determination that I had in mind initially.

 

“There he remained, emphasizing a meditation called “space-like concentration on the Dharmakaya” in which he focused single-pointedly on the ultimate nature of all phenomena [for six years.]”

 

“He seated himself beneath the Bodhi Tree in the meditation posture and vowed not to rise from meditation until he had attained perfect enlightenment. With this determination he entered the space-like concentration on the Dharmakaya.”

 

http://www.aboutbuddha.org/english/life-of-buddha-4.htm/

[3bob]

the saying, "going with the flow" needs to be qualified.  For instance if you are leaf being blown every which by the wind that is one type of going with the flow... but if you have an indomitable will directed by Spirit you are then not a leaf blown about by the wind or by the ways of the world - thus to "return" you go against the flow that is commonly spoken of.

[Jeff]

Yet stories of Buddha’s enlightenment tend to focus more on his determination than going with the flow, and this is more the determination that I had in mind initially.

 

“There he remained, emphasizing a meditation called “space-like concentration on the Dharmakaya” in which he focused single-pointedly on the ultimate nature of all phenomena [for six years.]”

 

“He seated himself beneath the Bodhi Tree in the meditation posture and vowed not to rise from meditation until he had attained perfect enlightenment. With this determination he entered the space-like concentration on the Dharmakaya.”

 

http://www.aboutbuddha.org/english/life-of-buddha-4.htm/

Sounds like a nice story about Buddha. I just tend to prefer sutra that is attributed to the direct sayings of Buddha.

 

Is you point around his "determination" or his "space-like concentration"?

[thelerner]

Premature declaration can be a serious problem.  Especially for the recipients.  Much of the time it can cured by slowing down.  Deep breathing.  Taking ones time.  Less rushing and thrusting about. 

 

Realisation is about the journey not the destination

or so my wife tells me. 

[Bindi]

Sounds like a nice story about Buddha. I just tend to prefer sutra that is attributed to the direct sayings of Buddha.

 

Is you point around his "determination" or his "space-like concentration"?

 

 

Determination:

Please, Ananda, strive for the true goal, be committed to the true goal, dwell heedful, ardent, & resolute for the sake of the true goal - Maha-Parinibbana Sutta

​The fourth Paramita:

4. The Perfection of Effort and Enthusiastic Perseverance (Virya Paramita)

This paramita is the enlightened quality of energy, vigour, vitality, endurance, diligence, enthusiasm, continuous, persistent effort. In order to practice the first three paramitas of generosity, virtuous conduct, and patience in the face of difficulties, we need this paramita of effort and perseverance. Persistent effort makes the previous paramitas increase and become even more powerful influences in our life. The essence of this paramita of effort is the courage, energy, and endurance to continuously practice the Dharma and pursue the supreme goal of enlightenment for the highest good of all beings. From a feeling of deep compassion for the suffering of all sentient beings, we are urged to unfailing, persistent, and joyous effort. We use our body, speech, and mind to work ceaselessly and untiringly for the benefit of others, with no expectations for personal recognition or reward. We are always ready to serve others to the best of our ability. With right effort, devoted energy, and the power of sustained application, we practice the Dharma without getting sidetracked by anything or failing under the influence of laziness. Without developing Virya Paramita, we can become easily disillusioned and drop our practice when we meet with adverse conditions. The word virya means persistence and perseverance in the face of disillusionment, energetically striving to attain the supreme goal of enlightenment.

 

When we cultivate this type of diligence and perseverance we have a strong and healthy mind. We practice with persistent effort and enthusiasm because we realise the tremendous value and benefit of our Dharma practice. Firmly establishing ourselves in this paramita, we also develop self-reliance, and this becomes one of our most prominent characteristics. With right effort and enthusiastic perseverance, we regard failure as simply another step toward success, danger as an inspiration for courage, and affliction as another opportunity to practice wisdom and compassion. To develop strength of character, self-reliance, and the next paramita of concentration, is not an easy achievement, thus we need enthusiastic perseverance on the path.

http://dharmamind.net/teachings/the-6-parimitas/

[Bindi]

These are factual statements. They seem radical because the ego mind still is lodged in the center-stage of our apparent being-ness

 

 

If  “the ego mind still is lodged in the center-stage of our apparent being-ness...” then wouldn’t it be correct to say we are still apparently bound by ego?

[neti neti]

Yes, spiritual pride can lead to numberless errors. But what of striving to attain that which we imagine the indescribable to be? Shackled by expectation, the mind writhes in its fostering of "Unsatisfied"...unmet desires mistaken for necessity.

 

We are already that which we seek, indeed. Effort grows up into effortlessness. Illusion persists until, at last, the end of the drama bears witness to its own ruse. Only then is the impermanence of our many pseudo-selves revealed.

 

"Do not think you will necessarily be aware of your own enlightenment." -Dogen

Edited December 17, 2016 by neti neti

[Jeff]

...

Effort grows up into effortlessness. Illusion persists until, at last, the end of the drama bears witness to its own ruse.

...

 

Well said.

[Jeff]

Determination:

Please, Ananda, strive for the true goal, be committed to the true goal, dwell heedful, ardent, & resolute for the sake of the true goal - Maha-Parinibbana Sutta

​The fourth Paramita:

4. The Perfection of Effort and Enthusiastic Perseverance (Virya Paramita) [/size]

This paramita is the enlightened quality of energy, vigour, vitality, endurance, diligence, enthusiasm, continuous, persistent effort. In order to practice the first three paramitas of generosity, virtuous conduct, and patience in the face of difficulties, we need this paramita of effort and perseverance. Persistent effort makes the previous paramitas increase and become even more powerful influences in our life. The essence of this paramita of effort is the courage, energy, and endurance to continuously practice the Dharma and pursue the supreme goal of enlightenment for the highest good of all beings. From a feeling of deep compassion for the suffering of all sentient beings, we are urged to unfailing, persistent, and joyous effort. We use our body, speech, and mind to work ceaselessly and untiringly for the benefit of others, with no expectations for personal recognition or reward. We are always ready to serve others to the best of our ability. With right effort, devoted energy, and the power of sustained application, we practice the Dharma without getting sidetracked by anything or failing under the influence of laziness. Without developing Virya Paramita, we can become easily disillusioned and drop our practice when we meet with adverse conditions. The word virya means persistence and perseverance in the face of disillusionment, energetically striving to attain the supreme goal of enlightenment.[/size]

 

When we cultivate this type of diligence and perseverance we have a strong and healthy mind. We practice with persistent effort and enthusiasm because we realise the tremendous value and benefit of our Dharma practice. Firmly establishing ourselves in this paramita, we also develop self-reliance, and this becomes one of our most prominent characteristics. With right effort and enthusiastic perseverance, we regard failure as simply another step toward success, danger as an inspiration for courage, and affliction as another opportunity to practice wisdom and compassion. To develop strength of character, self-reliance, and the next paramita of concentration, is not an easy achievement, thus we need enthusiastic perseverance on the path.[/size]

http://dharmamind.net/teachings/the-6-parimitas/[/size][/size]

From your same link... Moving beyond individual desires, goals and self...

 

6. The Perfection of Wisdom (Prajna Paramita)

 

This paramita is the enlightened quality of transcendental wisdom, insight, and the perfection of understanding. The essence of this paramita is the supreme wisdom, the highest understanding that living beings can attain – beyond words and completely free from the limitation of mere ideas, concepts, or intellectual knowledge. Beyond the limited confines of intellectual and conceptual states of mind, we experience the awakened heart-mind of wisdom and compassion – prajna paramita. Prajna paramita is the supreme wisdom (prajna) that knows emptiness (shunyata) and the interconnectedness of all things. This flawless wisdom eliminates all false and distorted views of the absolute. We see the essential nature of reality with utmost clarity; our perception goes beyond the illusive and deceptive veils of material existence. With the perfection of wisdom, we develop the ability to recognise the truth behind the temporary display of all appearances. Prajna paramita is a result of contemplation, meditation, and rightly understanding the nature of reality. Ultimately, the full realisation of prajna paramita is that we are not simply a separate self trying to do good. Rather, virtuously serving the welfare of all beings is simply a natural expression of the awakening heart. We realise that the one serving, the one being served, and the compassionate action of service, are all the same totality – there is no separate ego or self to be found in any of these. With this supreme wisdom, we go beyond acceptance and rejection, hope and fear, dualistic thoughts, and ego-clinging. We completely dissolve all these notions, realising everything as a transparent display of the primordial truth. If our ego is attached even to the disciplines of these paramitas, this is incorrect perception and we are merely going from one extreme to another. In order to free ourselves from these extremes, we must release our ego attachment and dissolve all dualistic concepts with the insight of supreme wisdom. This wisdom transforms the other five paramitas into their transcendental state as well. Only the illumination of supreme wisdom makes this possible.

[dwai]

If “the ego mind still is lodged in the center-stage of our apparent being-ness...” then wouldn’t it be correct to say we are still apparently bound by ego?

Of course

[Bindi]

From your same link... Moving beyond individual desires, goals and self...

 

6. The Perfection of Wisdom (Prajna Paramita)

 

This paramita is the enlightened quality of transcendental wisdom, insight, and the perfection of understanding. The essence of this paramita is the supreme wisdom, the highest understanding that living beings can attain – beyond words and completely free from the limitation of mere ideas, concepts, or intellectual knowledge. Beyond the limited confines of intellectual and conceptual states of mind, we experience the awakened heart-mind of wisdom and compassion – prajna paramita. Prajna paramita is the supreme wisdom (prajna) that knows emptiness (shunyata) and the interconnectedness of all things. This flawless wisdom eliminates all false and distorted views of the absolute. We see the essential nature of reality with utmost clarity; our perception goes beyond the illusive and deceptive veils of material existence. With the perfection of wisdom, we develop the ability to recognise the truth behind the temporary display of all appearances. Prajna paramita is a result of contemplation, meditation, and rightly understanding the nature of reality. Ultimately, the full realisation of prajna paramita is that we are not simply a separate self trying to do good. Rather, virtuously serving the welfare of all beings is simply a natural expression of the awakening heart. We realise that the one serving, the one being served, and the compassionate action of service, are all the same totality – there is no separate ego or self to be found in any of these. With this supreme wisdom, we go beyond acceptance and rejection, hope and fear, dualistic thoughts, and ego-clinging. We completely dissolve all these notions, realising everything as a transparent display of the primordial truth. If our ego is attached even to the disciplines of these paramitas, this is incorrect perception and we are merely going from one extreme to another. In order to free ourselves from these extremes, we must release our ego attachment and dissolve all dualistic concepts with the insight of supreme wisdom. This wisdom transforms the other five paramitas into their transcendental state as well. Only the illumination of supreme wisdom makes this possible.

 

"This paramita is the enlightened quality of transcendental wisdom, insight, and the perfection of understanding... [which allows us to] go beyond dualistic thoughts and ego-clinging... and transforms the other five paramitas."

 

Isn't this really the path to the transcendental truth, which you disavowed previously when you said:

 

I think there is similar danger when one says that there is some cosmic or transcendental truth to be realized in the first place...

Edited December 17, 2016 by Bindi

[3bob]

Hello Bindi, That last post reminds me of a certain realization, namely that Truth in the deepest sense is so rock solidly simple, unified, unassuming, quintessentially pure, at peace and "without further ado" - that it mostly escapes us being that we tend to overlay it with various complexities.

[Jeff]

"This paramita is the enlightened quality of transcendental wisdom, insight, and the perfection of understanding... [which allows us to] go beyond dualistic thoughts and ego-clinging... and transforms the other five paramitas."

 

Isn't this really the path to the transcendental truth, which you disavowed previously when you said:

 

No, it really isn't from my point of view. The issue is that such a "transcendental truth" is of the mind. And, what we are attempting to describe is beyond the mind. Hopefully, these words on the things to be observed from "Dakini Teachings" by Padmasamhava highlight the point...

 

7. Realize that sentient beings, from the moment they are experienced, do not possess any true existence and therefore that samsara is the primordial purity of nonarising and does not have to be abandoned.

8. Realize that everything experienced as kayas and wisdoms is contained within your mind and therefore that buddhahood is beyond being accomplished.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Jeff

[3bob]

imo it's not really doable to mix up the primary tenets of traditional Buddhism (for instance no Atman) and Hinduism (Atman) which are counter to each other - so at some point a person would have to choose one teaching or the other - which doesn't mean that respect for both is not shown.

Edited December 17, 2016 by 3bob

[Bindi]

No, it really isn't from my point of view. The issue is that such a "transcendental truth" is of the mind. And, what we are attempting to describe is beyond the mind. Hopefully, these words on the things to be observed from "Dakini Teachings" by Padmasamhava highlight the point...

 

7. Realize that sentient beings, from the moment they are experienced, do not possess any true existence and therefore that samsara is the primordial purity of nonarising and does not have to be abandoned.

8. Realize that everything experienced as kayas and wisdoms is contained within your mind and therefore that buddhahood is beyond being accomplished.

 

As far as I understand it, the sixth paramita allows one to go beyond dualistic thoughts and ego-clinging, where everything is realised as a transparent display of primordial truth beyond the 'mind'.

 

Maybe we could stick to the sutras that are attributed to the direct sayings of (Shakyamuni) Buddha as you suggested earlier, having a quick look at some of the book Dakini Teachings I found one view can be contradicted by an alternative view sometimes within the one paragraph, and with such a broad perspective anything could be quoted to prove just about anything. I certainly found a lot of material in it that outright disagrees with your quote above.   

Edited December 17, 2016 by Bindi

[Bindi]

Of course

 

If it's correct to say we are still apparently bound by ego, how are you understanding “You are not bound by anything. What does a pure person like you need to renounce?"

[3bob]

who is a "pure person like you", being that there is only one Self?