The ear of the ear, eye of the eye, mind of the mind, speech of the speech and life of the life

[dwai]

Har Har Mahadev! <3 ShivayaShiva

 

I. “By whom commanded and directed does the mind go towards its objects? Commanded by whom does the life-force, the first (cause), move? At whose will do men utter speech? What power directs the eye and the ear?”

 

Thus the disciple approached the Master and inquired concerning the cause of life and human activity. Having a sincere longing for Truth he desired to know who really sees and hears, who actuates the apparent physical man. He perceived all about him the phenomenal world, the existence of which he could prove by his senses; but he sought to know the invisible causal world, of which he was now only vaguely conscious. Is mind all-pervading and all-powerful, or is it impelled by some other force, he asked. Who sends forth the vital energy, without which nothing can exist? The teacher replies:

 

II. “It is the ear of the ear, the mind of the mind, the speech of the speech, the life of the life, the eye of the eye. The wise, freed (from the senses and from mortal desires), after leaving this world, become immortal.”

 

An ordinary man hears, sees, thinks, but he is satisfied to know only as much as can be known through the senses; he does not analyze and try to find that which stands behind the ear or eye or mind. He is completely identified with his external nature. His conception does not go beyond the little circle of his bodily life, which concerns the outer man only. He has no consciousness of that which enables his senses and organs to perform their tasks.

 

There is a vast difference between the manifested form and That which is manifested through the form. When we know That, we shall not die with the body. One who clings to the senses and to things that are ephemeral, must die many deaths, but that man who knows the eye of the eye, the ear of the ear, having severed himself from his physical nature, becomes immortal. Immortality is attained when man transcends his apparent nature and finds that subtle, eternal and inexhaustible essence which is within him.

 

~ Kena Upanishad with commentary by Swami Paramananda

[Prasanna]

Hari Om,

 

These two verses are the first two mantras in the Kenopanishad. Let us first see the background of the question. A spiritual aspirant or an advanced spiritual seeker who is at the verge of Self Realization asks this to the enlightened spiritual master. That spiritual aspirant or seeker has put the question to know about what actually drives our perceptions, actions, thinking, feelings and life perse. For such a seeker who has put in all the efforts to know the truth, this question is raised only out of humility to confirm the truth of his findings through prior reflection, contemplation and meditation. From the question itself the master recognizes the level of spiritual evolution or spiritual growth of the seeker and promptly gives the answer that can instantly take the questioning seeker to Self Realization (enlightenment). The spiritual seeker is asking about the Truth behind our experiences in life. The Sanskrit term 'Deva' implies the force or the functioning principle that is behind life and our life experiences.

 

Let us now proceed to the answer. This answer which says that it is the Ear of the ear, Mind of the mind, Speech of the speech, Prana of the prana: it is the Eye of the eye and thus detatching from his mortal material aspects of body, mind, intellect and ego, the spiritual seeker attains immortality. As explained by our fellow member dwai, those who lead a worldly life or extroverted life of sensuality, materialism, selfishness, egoistic and desire ridden life, die moment after moment with each different experience. While the enlightened crosses the identification with their material aspects namely body, mind intellect and ego and achieves the transcendent state of God consciousness called self Realization which is beyond the cycle of birth and death. Immortality is achieved by transcending the limited experiences of the life called actions, perceptions, thinking and feeling experienced in the waking dream and deep sleep states, upon achieving oneness with the very subtlest enlivening principle within the core of our personality called God or Supreme Self. Spiritual practices of Karma, Bhakthi and Gnana Yogas help in getting rid of egoism and desires of the mind enabling the individual to freely and easily meditate on the Supreme Self or Brahman or God and ultimately achieve Self Realization. 

 

As opposed to the most commonly practiced worldly life of extroversion wherein the individual seeks to know the Reality through the experiences of body, mind, intellect and ego, the spiritual aspirant tries introversion to the seek the truth and Realities of life. In introversion, the spiritual aspirant progresses step step by step to gradually transcend the grosser material layers of food sheath, Vital air / breath sheath, mental sheath. intellectual sheath and the final bliss sheath to finally achieve identification or oneness with the subtlest enlivening principle called the Supreme Self or Brahman or God. This is Self Realization. 

 

[dwai]

Beautifully explained by Swami Sarvapriyananda!

 

[3bob]

Prasanna, Lets not forget that all the Swamis, Monks, Yogis, Sages, Saints, Satgurus, and etc. were once like those that you apparently do not approve of.

 

Btw. If there were not householders none of the above would have ever been born in the first place to purposely acquire ego, karma and ignorance - learn from those, then work them out, and finally have the veils lifted and return to Source or Self- realization. 

[Prasanna]

Prasanna, Lets not forget that all the Swamis, Monks, Yogis, Sages, Saints, Satgurus, and etc. were once like those that you apparently do not approve of.

 

Btw. If there were not householders none of the above would have ever been born in the first place to purposely acquire ego, karma and ignorance - learn from those, then work them out, and finally have the veils lifted and return to Source or Self- realization. 

I am sorry if I have given you a wrong impression about any aspect of the world. The first think that the spiritual pursuit teaches is humility, not the arrogance that I know everything. We are talking about a conscious transformation from a worldly living to a transcended living with a disinterested interest in life. Life is all about progressively working for our perfection of the personality. Life is about working for our individual evolution with consistency of purpose. I personally do not approve of unrighteousness, nothing else.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Prasanna

[3bob]

Prasanna, Ok,

btw. in post 5 you used, "life" descriptions twice...did you mean to use another word besides life to make a comparison?

 

Also being that is there no Shiva without Shakti how would you further describe a "disinterested interest" per the omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient?

[Brian]

Prasanna, Ok,

btw. in post 5 you used, "life" descriptions twice...did you mean to use another word besides life to make a comparison?

 

Also being that is there no Shiva without Shakti how would you further describe a "disinterested interest" per the omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient?

I think those two sentences could be rewritten as one:

 

"Life is all about progressively working for our perfection of the personality, working for our individual evolution with consistency of purpose."

[3bob]

Brian,  Well maybe but personality is not essence...

[Prasanna]

Prasanna, Ok,

btw. in post 5 you used, "life" descriptions twice...did you mean to use another word besides life to make a comparison?

 

Also being that is there no Shiva without Shakti how would you further describe a "disinterested interest" per the omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient?

 

 

Brian,  Well maybe but personality is not essence...

Can you explain yourself in a better way so that I too can understand what you are trying to ask me? In Vedanta we talk about the state of Self Realization which is what the scriptures pronounce as the ultimate purpose of life. Now you are bringing terms like Shiva and Shakthi to which I am not very much familiar with. Shiva or Shakthi are all just different manifestations of the supreme Brahman. There is Lord Vishnu too whom you have not mentioned here, why? Disinterested interest in the affairs of the world due to Self Realization is an effect of growing over one's own desires of the Mind and ego. Reduction of desires of the mind and reduction is a sign of spiritual growth. Sakshi Bhava or the "being a Witness to the affairs of the world without least involvement" can be an explanation for the term disinterested interest which is what the spiritual seekers strive to achieve in their spiritual pursuit.

[3bob]

The term "disinterested interest" might need further discussion being that imo it sounds rather neutral in an apathetic kind of way, then again I think I get your drift.... for instance one could say something like, "roaring silence" or quote the words, "unstruck sound" as pointing to certain meanings.  We also have in one example of scripture the Chandogya Upanishad for consideration wherein it speaks of all that springs from Brahman or Atman with such not being just neutral or apathetic in any way!

 

As for Shiva or Siva, it is also a term used by many to mean Brahman, thus not just a derived manifestation or aspect of Brahman although that too comes into play.  Btw, if you are an Indian living in south India (or most anywhere in India) I'm somewhat surprised that you are not very familiar with Saivite teachings or its major schools, be that as it may it's besides the OP.

(and myself also not knowing much about a lot of other schools)

[Prasanna]

The term "disinterested interest" might need further discussion being that imo it sounds rather neutral in an apathetic kind of way, then again I think I get your drift.... for instance one could say something like, "roaring silence" or quote the words, "unstruck sound" as pointing to certain meanings.  We also have in one example of scripture the Chandogya Upanishad for consideration wherein it speaks of all that springs from Brahman or Atman with such not being just neutral or apathetic in any way!

 

As for Shiva or Siva, it is also a term used by many to mean Brahman, thus not just a derived manifestation or aspect of Brahman although that too comes into play.  Btw, if you are an Indian living in south India (or most anywhere in India) I'm somewhat surprised that you are not very familiar with Saivite teachings or its major schools, be that as it may it's besides the OP.

(and myself also not knowing much about a lot of other schools)

I am from south india and I am born a Vaishnavite. Yet I know about Saivism to the extent any normal Hindu would know, not beyond that. In my tradition, it is not Shiva which is the supreme Brahman, but Vishnu or Lord Narayana who is the absolute Truth. It is very funny that you are arguing about manifestations of the almighty Brahman from whom the tritnity namely, Brahma (The creator), Vishnu (The maintainer) and Shiva (The destroyer) have all sprung from. This is the basic of Hinduism.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Prasanna

[3bob]

....umm, didn't you just make the same "funny" argument using a different name?

 

Btw, how would you describe what any "normal Hindu" knows about the Saivite teachings? (being that there are hundreds of millions+ of Saivite faith) 

[dwai]

....umm, didn't you just make the same "funny" argument using a different name?

 

Btw, how would you describe what any "normal Hindu" knows about the Saivite teachings? (being that there are hundreds of millions+ of Saivite faith) 

 

I know where Prasanna is coming from. In India, there are no major issues wrt Saivism "vs" Vaishnavism "vs" Shaktism in the popular sense. We worship all deities, we celebrate all festivals. Depending on the part of India, one deity might be primary for the population than another. For instance, in Maharashtra (a Western state), Ganesh is the primary deity. In Karnataka (a southern state that I grew up in), there is a even distribution of Vaishnavites and Shaivites (Lingayats etc). In the Eastern state of Bengal where my roots are, Durga and Kali are the primary deities.

 

Yet, the fabric of Hindu culture is such that these deities form an extended family. Shiva and Parvati (Durga/Kali) are husband and wife, whose kids are Ganesh, Karthik, Lakshmi and Saraswati. Saraswati's husband is Brahma (the creator), Lakshmi's husband is Vishnu (the preserver). There are many cultural nuances that non-Indian Hindus can't understand (because they have not lived Hinduism the way us Indian-Hindus have and do).

[3bob]

Well said Dwai, (and not funny in a condescending way)

[Prasanna]

I know where Prasanna is coming from. In India, there are no major issues wrt Saivism "vs" Vaishnavism "vs" Shaktism in the popular sense. We worship all deities, we celebrate all festivals. Depending on the part of India, one deity might be primary for the population than another. For instance, in Maharashtra (a Western state), Ganesh is the primary deity. In Karnataka (a southern state that I grew up in), there is a even distribution of Vaishnavites and Shaivites (Lingayats etc). In the Eastern state of Bengal where my roots are, Durga and Kali are the primary deities.

 

Yet, the fabric of Hindu culture is such that these deities form an extended family. Shiva and Parvati (Durga/Kali) are husband and wife, whose kids are Ganesh, Karthik, Lakshmi and Saraswati. Saraswati's husband is Brahma (the creator), Lakshmi's husband is Vishnu (the preserver). There are many cultural nuances that non-Indian Hindus can't understand (because they have not lived Hinduism the way us Indian-Hindus have and do).

One more thing I would like to add is that Vishnu and Shakthi are brother and sister. Vishnu gives the hand of Parvathi (Shakthi) to Shiva in marriage bond. Now I think it should be clear how all the deities are related. Brahma (The creator) sprang from the navel of Lord Vishnu.

[Prasanna]

....umm, didn't you just make the same "funny" argument using a different name?

 

Btw, how would you describe what any "normal Hindu" knows about the Saivite teachings? (being that there are hundreds of millions+ of Saivite faith) 

When I explain spirituality I don't bring in the religious aspect like Shiva or Vishnu like you have done. I try to maintain a neutral stance and talk in generic terms like God, so that it doesn't affect the sensitivity of the other person. FYI you started that thing about Saivism, not me.

[3bob]

Prasanna,  This is the Hindu sub-forum, as listed.  (not the general forum where one might not want to get to heavy into religion like you mentioned,  although that does happen there all the time)  Thus no one should really be surprised or offended in a Hindu forum if any of its Gods or principles related to same are brought up, for there is no way to side step around the fact that Hinduism or Sanatana Dharma is directly linked to its Gods and so many other in depth aspects of Vedic based religion.  (including per the Upanishads!) - I sure don't need to tell you that but I'm bringing it up as a reminder; btw. like Dwai's post which explained an important part of Hinduism and its culture   

 

Anyway, I don't have and imo no one else should have a problem with, "that thing" also known by some as, Shiva the "Lord of Yoga" being brought up in a Hindu forum.

Edited March 4, 2017 by 3bob

[dwai]

Anyway, I don't have and imo no one else should have a problem with, "that thing" also known by some as, Shiva the "Lord of Yoga" being brought up in a Hindu forum.

 

Shiva and his shakti are none other than Brahman itself. Edited March 4, 2017 by dwai

[Prasanna]

I am not here to argue over name and form of Gods or arguing about somebody's personal beliefs. My personal request to 3 Bob is either try to understand what I am trying to say in spirit or else have your own notions about Hinduism

Edited March 6, 2017 by Prasanna

[Prasanna]

Prasanna,  This is the Hindu sub-forum, as listed.  (not the general forum where one might not want to get to heavy into religion like you mentioned,  although that does happen there all the time)  Thus no one should really be surprised or offended in a Hindu forum if any of its Gods or principles related to same are brought up, for there is no way to side step around the fact that Hinduism or Sanatana Dharma is directly linked to its Gods and so many other in depth aspects of Vedic based religion.  (including per the Upanishads!) - I sure don't need to tell you that but I'm bringing it up as a reminder; btw. like Dwai's post which explained an important part of Hinduism and its culture   

 

Anyway, I don't have and imo no one else should have a problem with, "that thing" also known by some as, Shiva the "Lord of Yoga" being brought up in a Hindu forum.

 

 

Shiva and his shakti are none other than Brahman itself.

There are fanatical Hindus who fight in the name of Gods like you two and there are spiritual Hindus who want to cross over those trivialities like fighting over name and form. You decide where you want to be.

[3bob]

We are not fighting or hung up on form or non-form -  Btw #1, If you are an example of your groups teachings then thanks for the warning, or perhaps you turned sour on your own?   Btw #2, Please drop the pretense of being a "spiritual" Hindu since one can't do so while also trashing or belittling very important and multiple aspects related to it ! ) 

[Prasanna]

We are not fighting or hung up on form or non-form -  Btw #1, If you are an example of your groups teachings then thanks for the warning, or perhaps you turned sour on your own?   Btw #2, Please drop the pretense of being a "spiritual" Hindu since one can't do so while also trashing or belittling very important and multiple aspects related to it ! ) 

3Bob,You don't need to tell me whether I am spiritual or not. If you can be polite and receptive take my points or leave it, who is concerned about you who has the least of courtesy as to how to relate properly in a discussion forum like this. I hope you will behave decently in future.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Prasanna

[neti neti]

...............................

II. “It is the ear of the ear, the mind of the mind, the speech of the speech, the life of the life, the eye of the eye. The wise, freed (from the senses and from mortal desires), after leaving this world, become immortal.”

 

An ordinary man hears, sees, thinks, but he is satisfied to know only as much as can be known through the senses; he does not analyze and try to find that which stands behind the ear or eye or mind. He is completely identified with his external nature. His conception does not go beyond the little circle of his bodily life, which concerns the outer man only. He has no consciousness of that which enables his senses and organs to perform their tasks.

 

There is a vast difference between the manifested form and That which is manifested through the form. When we know That, we shall not die with the body. One who clings to the senses and to things that are ephemeral, must die many deaths, but that man who knows the eye of the eye, the ear of the ear, having severed himself from his physical nature, becomes immortal. Immortality is attained when man transcends his apparent nature and finds that subtle, eternal and inexhaustible essence which is within him.

 

~ Kena Upanishad with commentary by Swami Paramananda

 

The world does not exist without the body; the body never at any time exists without the mind; the mind does not exist at all apart from consciousness; and consciousness too does not exist apart from being.

If you remain still, without paying attention to this, without paying attention to that, and without paying attention to anything at all, you will, simply through your powerful attention to being, become the Reality, the vast eye, the unbounded space of consciousness. ~Ramana Maharshi

[3bob]

Prasanna,  Thanks for the additional examples that warn of where your dictator like ego is coming from !  Btw, to try and hide that behind Hindusim is deplorable. 

[dwai]

 

There are fanatical Hindus who fight in the name of Gods like you two and there are spiritual Hindus who want to cross over those trivialities like fighting over name and form. You decide where you want to be.

 

 

Prasanna, I was not arguing with 3Bob. I was telling him that Shiva + Shakti (Purusha + Prakriti) of Samkhya not different from Brahman of Advaita Vedanta. You are falling into the same trap that you are warning against.

 

Please re-read the discussion and see if you find an element of anger, pointless argumentation here. Most of the people who post here are serious sadhakas and respectful of each other's view points. Those who are not are handled by the moderators. 

 

Best,

 

Dwai