Nei Dan (alchemy) and the MCO

[JohnC]

Yo guys,

 

I was wondering if anyone knows about internal alchemy, or as I understand it the conversion of jing to qi to shen, and the relationship of this to the microcosmic orbit?

 

Does the MCO sublimate jing to shen? Straight up the back into the head?

Focusing on circulation?

 

While internal alchemy goes internally up, and is about storage and then conversion to the next substance?

 

John

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[JohnC]

小梦想,

Thanks for your reply.

 

I do agree the LDT needs to be activated to begin storing, according to lineages that I've been a part of. That said, according to some lineages it will activate and develop as you practice. Difference in lineage perhaps.

 

I don't think the MCO is necessary for your ldt to develop or to start developing chi, per many lineages that don't focus on that. Namely stillness movement, yi gong, as a few. In fact according to stillness movement, it's the opposite. You develop the LDT which then opens the MCO naturally.

 

What has you say that?

 

I do know that some lineages focus on moving energy through the mco, or have your body start circulating energy via the MCO, namely SFQ and other wudang lineages.

 

As I understand it, fully opening the MCO is a major accomplishment that requires years and years of work, or the focused help of a master. According to Wang li ping of the Dragon Gate lineage this is a rare accomplishment.

 

 

John

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[liminal_luke]

This topic is above my pay grade, but here goes anyway.

 

The MCO orbit is about the duality of yin and yang.  Yang up the back, yin down the front.  When this flow is strong and fluid, the center channel is nourished and becomes more active.  The center channel is about the center -- stillness, silence, peace.  The central channel is about the resolution of yin and yang into neutrality, emptiness, light.  All that good alchemical stuff happens in the center.  In this way the opening of the MCO gradually and of it´s own accord leads towards alchemy.

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[JohnC]

I haven't been able to find anyone in the systems that you mention that can demonstrate their qi, on a person that absolutely does not believe in qi. 

 I know every one of those systems I listed can demonstrate qi on people regardless of belief in qi.

 

You might find this interesting on the experience of someone going through longmen pai:

https://longmenpai.blogspot.com/

 

Likewise, I know of some lineage's in China that actively avoid focus on developing the mco. The focus on developing the whole body as a dantien.

 

Regardless, I appreciate the time you took to respond.

John

Edited July 16, 2016 by JohnC

[JohnC]

This topic is above my pay grade, but here goes anyway.

 

The MCO orbit is about the duality of yin and yang.  Yang up the back, yin down the front.  When this flow is strong and fluid, the center channel is nourished and becomes more active.  The center channel is about the center -- stillness, silence, peace.  The central channel is about the resolution of yin and yang into neutrality, emptiness, light.  All that good alchemical stuff happens in the center.  In this way the opening of the MCO gradually and of it´s own accord leads towards alchemy.

Hmm, so the mco activates alchemy?

 

Do you think that alchemy could happen independent of the mco?

 

I feel like Drew would know this kind of question from taoist yoga.

 

John

[blue eyed snake]

I've no knowledge of different systems, can only talk from personal experience.

 

i'm taught only gentle awareness on the LDT ( starting with: bring your awareness to the underbelly) after some time my teacher told me about the MCO, I had never heard of it before. A few days after that it opened, felt like rushing water in an empty riverbed. I was happy he forewarned me...

 

Only after the MCO opened i became aware of the dantien as a dantien, a sort of ongoing process

 

 

Bes

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[liminal_luke]

 

Do you think that alchemy could happen independent of the mco?

 

 

There´s a lot of controversy about opening the mco, whether or not it should be an area of focus, whether or not it is OK to use visualization.  My own view is that the mco is part of our energetic anatomy: it´s up and running to a certain extent as long as we´re alive.  With practice we can bring it into awareness, clear blockages, strengthen the flow.  But it´s a part of the meridian system and everyone has one.  Lots of practices strengthen the mco even if there´s no specific focus on it.  Yi gong, the practice Max Christenson popularized and dubbed Kunlun, strengthens and opens all the channels.

 

It´s hard for me to imagine alchemical processes happening independently.  To me, it´s like asking if alchemy could happen independent of the liver. Every living person has a liver, and the state of that organ is going to have a huge effect on nearly everything else happening in the body. 

Edited July 16, 2016 by liminal_luke

[EmeraldHead]

From my experience and knowledge, it can be a dangerous thing to play with it. Just like all energetic flows, if ones reaches the neccesary level of vitality as a result of their cultivation efforts, they will be able to feel the flow and its effects. Then it is safe, IMO, to manipulate it. Otherwise, you can be doing the MCO wrong or stimulate other trouble for a long time and only realise when some bad illness hits you, or even worse  

 

A lot has been said already. And yes the MCO is almost like part of the dan tiens/taiji pole (middle channel). If the dantiens are 3 countries, the MCO is like this major river that flows around the world and in between all 3 countries. Being a major potential source of business and fish for the countries. 

 

As you get more chi, especially accumulates in the LDT, the MCO flow will increase as well. 

 

For me I find the MCO interacts with my LDT at the perinium. Especially, if I "lock" the whole anal floor.

 

Im nowhere near advanced atm though. I mostly heard. Like you can pump different colours for different effects. At the end of the day, the MCO is a chi flow. So you can do lots with that chi. Sometimes its good to do some reverse MCO to balance and NEVER skip any points in the MCO or bad stuff happens.

 

So dont mess with it, get yourself at least a good foundation of chi. Stay celibate, workout, earthing, sungazing, etc. build the chi strong,

[Mudfoot]

 

There are so many different lineages, and so many different methods taught, some outright contradicting each other. They all can't be right. There may be many paths up the same mountain as they say, but you still need the basics to be able to climb in the first place.

 

Only the ones who have the correct foundation have any chance of reaching the top, the rest will get stuck somewhere along the way, most not very far into the journey.

 

Here on TDB, the great melting pot, you can read about almost every opinion.

 

Like the MCO and LDT.

 

You should start with the MCO and then build the LDT. Or you should start with the LDT and then the MCO will spontaneously start to activate.

 

You should use intention while working on the MCO, but at the same time that might use up your qi and lead to depletion.

 

MCO is a good idea, and MCO will waste any developement you might have done on the LTD.

 

Not to mention, how many circuits are there that might be called MCO? More than ten?

 

Confusing?

Naaah

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[Miffymog]

Mudfoot, where are you getting your information? 

 

 

umm ... you get all these conflicting opinions here, for free, on the TheDaoBums website ...

 

 

but I still love reading what gets posted so I'm not complaining ...

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[Mudfoot]

Yes, unfortunately sometimes these subjects turn into a joke.

 

Contradictions are galore.

[JohnC]

There are so many different lineages, and so many different methods taught, some outright contradicting each other. They all can't be right. There may be many paths up the same mountain as they say, but you still need the basics to be able to climb in the first place.

 

Only the ones who have the correct foundation have any chance of reaching the top, the rest will get stuck somewhere along the way, most not very far into the journey.

 

I would be interested to hear about these systems demonstrating on people if you are willing to tell me.

 

As to all systems can't be right, I respect what you believe what you know from your experience. Personally I've seen too much far out stuff to say what is valid what is not. Although I have that debate with myself at times.

 

 

The lineage that I know of as the most prominent that focuses on developing the whole body as a dantien is zhineng qigong.

https://qifieldtherapy.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/interview-with-dr-ming-pang-founder-of-zhineng-qigong/

 

Supposedly the whole body becoming a dantien is part of the end result of a number of systems including the mco. Based on a number of accounts.

 

All the best to you though.

Likewise.

 

John

Edited July 16, 2016 by JohnC

[Spotless]

The opinions are all correct from the person's or teachers perspective - and in fact none of them matter because if basic practice is done well you will in time trancend your opinions - since they will all be incorrect ( incorrect in the sense that all of your surety / certainty will dissipate in an instant as you realize of all the things you got right - you actually achieved that certainty from fragments of assumptions based on reading and other peoples info and some forms of sleepwalking knowledge).

 

Teachers have different body types,p and energetic proclivities, start from different levels and large and long lineages are based on these very human differences.

 

Dogma is all over the place.

 

The Thinking that this or that must be done perfectly and just so is nearly always simply a way for fear to complicate things.

 

It is definitely not necessary to open the MCO prior to opening the LDT - and this word Opening is absurd - it injects the idea that it is a doing as well as an activity rather than a springing to life - and this would also be a misnomer.

 

We believe we must peg everything down and label it and put it in order - though this binds our progress.

 

If you do only practice - breath into the LDT - everything will unfold - the MCO will "Open" as it has for me. And when it manifests with intensity there is no mistaking it.

Not one bit of manipulation is necessary or advised.

It will "open" even if you did not know it existed.

 

The singular most important practice tip is - breath into the lower dan tian.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Spotless

[Spotless]

The LDT is active from the start in some of us from our birth - I say this because it was for me.

 

Though some will argue that if this is the case it is because of prior lifetimes of practice. Perhaps - but it still means that some of us are born with an "active" LDT.

 

Several lineages teach that it is not active and even that it does not exist prior to practice and active construction. This is simply dogma from ego - nothing surprising about it - unless one expects all teachers to walk on water. They all have their proclivities and visual occlusion - the highest masters never get into engineering much and the need to dicker over non-essential small points is of no interest nor helpful.

[TheDustAutumn]

The opinions are all correct from the person's or teachers perspective - and in fact none of them matter because if basic practice is done well you will in time trancend your opinions - since they will all be incorrect ( incorrect in the sense that all of your surety / certainty will dissipate in an instant as you realize of all the things you got right - you actually achieved that certainty from fragments of assumptions based on reading and other peoples info and some forms of sleepwalking knowledge).

 

Teachers have different body types,p and energetic proclivities, start from different levels and large and long lineages are based on these very human differences.

 

Dogma is all over the place.

 

The Thinking that this or that must be done perfectly and just so is nearly always simply a way for fear to complicate things.

 

It is definitely not necessary to open the MCO prior to opening the LDT - and this word Opening is absurd - it injects the idea that it is a doing as well as an activity rather than a springing to life - and this would also be a misnomer.

 

We believe we must peg everything down and label it and put it in order - though this binds our progress.

 

If you do only practice - breath into the LDT - everything will unfold - the MCO will "Open" as it has for me. And when it manifests with intensity there is no mistaking it.

Not one bit of manipulation is necessary or advised.

It will "open" even if you did not know it existed.

 

The singular most important practice tip is - breath into the lower dan tian.

You can't fill a bathtub with water if the pipes that bring the water in are clogged or if the faucet isn't opened no matter how hard you wish for it to fill or how hard you concentrate on the bathtub. So if no water reaches the bathtub because the pipes are not opened and at the very beginning the bathtub is empty then how can you use water from the bathtub to unclog the pipes later? There is something wrong with you reasoning .

[Mudfoot]

On the other hand, proper breathing, proper alignments, and your intention on the lower abdomen might actually activate quite a lot of things.

 

And there are, if I recall right, at least three authors that I am aware of that uses this method to make qi go into the MCO.

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[Aetherous]

小梦想, are you able to say what school you come from?

[Bindi]

The opinions are all correct from the person's or teachers perspective - and in fact none of them matter because if basic practice is done well you will in time trancend your opinions - since they will all be incorrect ( incorrect in the sense that all of your surety / certainty will dissipate in an instant as you realize of all the things you got right - you actually achieved that certainty from fragments of assumptions based on reading and other peoples info and some forms of sleepwalking knowledge).

 

Teachers have different body types,p and energetic proclivities, start from different levels and large and long lineages are based on these very human differences.

 

Dogma is all over the place.

 

The Thinking that this or that must be done perfectly and just so is nearly always simply a way for fear to complicate things.

 

It is definitely not necessary to open the MCO prior to opening the LDT - and this word Opening is absurd - it injects the idea that it is a doing as well as an activity rather than a springing to life - and this would also be a misnomer.

 

We believe we must peg everything down and label it and put it in order - though this binds our progress.

 

If you do only practice - breath into the LDT - everything will unfold - the MCO will "Open" as it has for me. And when it manifests with intensity there is no mistaking it.

Not one bit of manipulation is necessary or advised.

It will "open" even if you did not know it existed.

 

The singular most important practice tip is - breath into the lower dan tian.

 

You refer to the LDT and the MCO 'opening', do the MDT and the UDT fit naturally into this process for you at some point? I also am interested in your answer to 小梦想's question, as I was also under the impression that the LDT needed to be deliberately created by us, if your experience is different to this it would be of interest and expand my understanding.