Meditating on the Meditator

[mindtooloud]

It is possible to have a similar experience in deep sleep, when the five sense are disengaged completely - this is the objective of sleep yoga practice.

Speaking of sleep, i wanna take a nap!

[Cheshire Cat]

[...]

But if you are meditating properly even the memories stop.

[...]

 

 

 

First question: what's a proper meditation in practical terms?

 

Second question: can you rely on meditation to stop the memory of being human so that if one suddenly ask you -while you're in that state- "Are you human?", you have to ponder on your sensate experience to be able to answer?

If not, the memory doesn't stop.

 

 

 

 

[...]

This also happens during empty-minded meditation.

[...]

No, that could happen only in "bulky-minded meditation" which comes about when "empty-minded meditation" gets really super-full of emptiness.

[doc benway]

Yeah, I much prefer dreamless sleep.  It allows the brain to get more rest.

 

My experience is different. I never feel more rested than after lucid dreaming or practicing sleep yoga. 

Just because we don't recall our dreams does not mean our sleep is dreamless. 

[doc benway]

That's what they say... and along with it, I could say that I can reach a super-state of ultra-subtle micro-clear luminescent light which is the most secret essence of the mind of the Buddhas, pristine awareness of the primordial consciousness.

It doesn't take too much to learn how to speak of nothing in this way.

 

Those who are clear about themselves, they know that they cannot recollect a single experience outside of the combinations of the 5 senses: even the most subtle and sublime experience of a state of clear light in a dream state... it's still a matter of vision, the sense of sight becomes prevalent.

Yes, this is an advanced outcome of the training in concentration... but it's just a very subtle experience of the illusion of the Self.

 

When people sit and say to themselves (and to others in public forums) that they rest in pure awareness or "feeling their presence", what they're really doing is resting in the tactile sensations of their bodies (again, one of the 5 senses).

 

Since the Buddha was quite clear about himself, he understood that because of this precise thing, there's no such a thing as a Self. There is none who perceive: there are just sensations and memory.

Buddhism wasn't about investigating reality to find out where's the self... it was about understanding that there's no self to reach detachment and avoid suffering. That's all. Meditation was 1/8 of the entire Path.

 

You raise a very good point. In fact, I raised the same point when I received the teachings.

I asked how one could experience clear light sleep in the absence of sensory input as the senses are the mediators of experience and memory. And if one were to have such an experience what would there be to remember? I don't think I phrased the question very clearly at the time. I focused a bit too much on the memory aspect. The answer didn't really address my question and I didn't belabor it.

 

Interestingly, in the very next practice session I had the experience I referred to. While your suggestion that the experience was one of sight rings true for me there was absolutely nothing to be seen, only the presence of what I can best describe as a spark or light of awareness and boundless space. Perhaps that "spark" of awareness and space was enough to constitute an experience mediated by sight. There may also have been a tactile component in the feeling of spaciousness which was preceded by a brief feeling of vertigo. There definitely was a sense of self present. 

 

I'm not stating emphatically that I had an experience of "pure awareness" but I also can't say there is a recollection of specific sensory experience beyond profound restfulness, clarity, and spaciousness. It's quite possible that these experiences were meditated by some combination of sense consciousnesses. I appreciate your input, it's very helpful.

[dwai]

You raise a very good point. In fact, I raised the same point when I received the teachings.

I asked how one could experience clear light sleep in the absence of sensory input as the senses are the mediators of experience and memory. And if one were to have such an experience what would there be to remember? I don't think I phrased the question very clearly at the time. I focused a bit too much on the memory aspect. The answer didn't really address my question and I didn't belabor it.

 

Interestingly, in the very next practice session I had the experience I referred to. While your suggestion that the experience was one of sight rings true for me there was absolutely nothing to be seen, only the presence of what I can best describe as a spark or light of awareness and boundless space. Perhaps that "spark" of awareness and space was enough to constitute an experience mediated by sight. There may also have been a tactile component in the feeling of spaciousness which was preceded by a brief feeling of vertigo. There definitely was a sense of self present. 

 

I'm not stating emphatically that I had an experience of "pure awareness" but I also can't say there is a recollection of specific sensory experience beyond profound restfulness, clarity, and spaciousness. It's quite possible that these experiences were meditated by some combination of sense consciousnesses. I appreciate your input, it's very helpful.

 

One kind of seeing is in the inner eye. It's in the mind's eye but there's no imagination underway. The imagery pops up...like when i'm doing Daoist meditation, especially in meditation circles, I'll clearly "see" white luminescence  flowing from the center of the circle where everyone is meditating on through my lower dan tien via what seems like an umbilical cord of similar white light and filling the dan tien, spinal column and rising to my crown point. 

 

Then there is "emptiness", which is an absolute stillness...it is is bereft of any movement or sensory. When the "mind" is focussed on this, there are no thoughts, no movements. As soon as mind wavers, the thoughts resume. It is painful initially (not in a physiological sense). Its like trying to balance a pencil tip on a pencil tip. If you can't be perfectly still, the pencil on the top falls. 

 

Weird! If you press too hard on focussing on this, it pushes back. If you let awareness rest, you can stay with it for long periods of time. 

 

I know it doesn't make sense for those who haven't experienced it. I know some of you guys have. 

 

I have been like Cheshire Cat in the past...it is only natural to be skeptical of something we can't yet corroborate experientially.

Edited July 28, 2016 by dwai

[Marblehead]

First question: what's a proper meditation in practical terms?

 

You know I don't preach practices.  However, I would say "proper" would be ne that allows one's self to be at peace, at least for a little while, after returning to conscious awareness.

 

Second question: can you rely on meditation to stop the memory of being human so that if one suddenly ask you -while you're in that state- "Are you human?", you have to ponder on your sensate experience to be able to answer?

If not, the memory doesn't stop.

 

That's actually a good question.  Knowing myself as I do I would likely totally disregard the question.  I can't truthfully answer that question though because I have never been faced with such a situation.  There is never anyone around when I go into empty-minded meditation.  No distractions.

 

 

 

No, that could happen only in "bulky-minded meditation" which comes about when "empty-minded meditation" gets really super-full of emptiness.

[Marblehead]

 

No, that could happen only in "bulky-minded meditation" which comes about when "empty-minded meditation" gets really super-full of emptiness.

 

We have a differing understanding of word usage here.  I can't properly respond.

[Marblehead]

My experience is different. I never feel more rested than after lucid dreaming or practicing sleep yoga. 

Just because we don't recall our dreams does not mean our sleep is dreamless. 

 

Yes, I have been presented with that argument many times before.  But then, if I cannot remember having dreamed how can I say that I dreamed even though I don't remember anything?

[doc benway]

Yes, I have been presented with that argument many times before.  But then, if I cannot remember having dreamed how can I say that I dreamed even though I don't remember anything?

 

Not making an argument, just sharing my experience regarding the restfulness aspect.

With respect to dreaming, it consistently occurs in REM sleep and sleep studies give us an idea of how often people dream on average. REM sleep comprises about 25% of the sleep cycle.

Edited to add - I've read that people forget >90% of their dream on average. 

Edited July 29, 2016 by steve

[Marblehead]

Not making an argument, just sharing my experience regarding the restfulness aspect.

With respect to dreaming, it consistently occurs in REM sleep and sleep studies give us an idea of how often people dream on average. REM sleep comprises about 25% of the sleep cycle.

Edited to add - I've read that people forget >90% of their dream on average. 

I didn't mean "argue" in a negative way.

 

And yes, I do watch the documentaries that discuss stuff like that.  Granted there is brain activity while a person is sleeping.  But to suggest that it is all dreaming is only hypothesis. 

 

I slept last night and can't recall a single mental process.  (Of course, some people accuse me of that when I'm awake so ...)

[doc benway]

Granted there is brain activity while a person is sleeping.  But to suggest that it is all dreaming is only hypothesis. 

I think it goes a bit beyond hypothesis.

When people engage in practices to improve dream recall, it works.

Their brain activity in REM sleep doesn't change but their recall does.

I don't think methods to improve recall are creating dreaming when none existed before.

I'm sure there are other things going on in the brain during sleep but failure to recall dreams does not mean that you don't dream. That's fairly well established in sleep science but I'm no expert. 

There's good research out there if the topic interests you.

[Marblehead]

Thanks but no, I'm not deeply interested in it.  Yeah, I will change my "hypothesis" to "theory".  And yes, there has been a lot of professional, scientific work done and I'm sure it sill continues today.

 

But you know me, I have never seen a ghost therefore ghosts do not exist.  I don't recall dreaming therefore I did not dream.

 

But back to meditating before this gets moved to "Off Topic".  Hehehe.

 

When I attain full empty-mindedness during my meditation I have no thoughts.  Now, it really can't be said that my brain was empty.  It is just that I was conscious of anything it was doing.  Therefore I had no thoughts.

 

Different forms of meditation are used for different purposes.  If we get what we were after then it's all good.

[dwai]

Thanks but no, I'm not deeply interested in it.  Yeah, I will change my "hypothesis" to "theory".  And yes, there has been a lot of professional, scientific work done and I'm sure it sill continues today.

 

But you know me, I have never seen a ghost therefore ghosts do not exist.  I don't recall dreaming therefore I did not dream.

 

But back to meditating before this gets moved to "Off Topic".  Hehehe.

 

When I attain full empty-mindedness during my meditation I have no thoughts.  Now, it really can't be said that my brain was empty.  It is just that I was conscious of anything it was doing.  Therefore I had no thoughts.

 

Different forms of meditation are used for different purposes.  If we get what we were after then it's all good.

 

funny when i rest in the "I" (as Ramana Maharishi says), the senses are still working, but there's no identification with the objects. They just flow by around the still center "I".  This is of course when I am practicing this as I'm walking or doing Taiji or listening to music etc.

[Marblehead]

funny when i rest in the "I" (as Ramana Maharishi says), the senses are still working, but there's no identification with the objects. They just flow by around the still center "I".  This is of course when I am practicing this as I'm walking or doing Taiji or listening to music etc.

 

Yes, that is the state of Wu Wei.  As you said, awareness but no identification.

 

"... no identification with the objects." is a good way of putting it.

 

I have done the same while walking but never while doing Tai Chi.  Of course I am doing Tai Chi with two swords so I have to remain in the present.

 

Yeah, the music.  My mind sometimes goes travelling when I am listening to music.  Almost like the music is a Magic Carpet fpr my mind.

[Tibetan_Ice]

funny when i rest in the "I" (as Ramana Maharishi says), the senses are still working, but there's no identification with the objects. They just flow by around the still center "I". This is of course when I am practicing this as I'm walking or doing Taiji or listening to music etc.

Didn't Ramana say to seek the source of the "I ", not rest in it?

[dwai]

Didn't Ramana say to seek the source of the "I ", not rest in it?

He has said many different things to many people. I have to just see where I takes me

[Boy]

A rest won't take you anywhere, dwai, but I agree it's very nice to stay silent in the flow for a while. To be perfectly clear - it's not "meditating on the meditator" as I understand the expression. Then again, since we're mixing quasi-Buddhism with Vedanta et al it's hard to understand what anyone really means. It's been said before but for real progress I really think it's better to stick with one religion. I would put it in stronger terms if not for the fact that we're all here.

[Marblehead]

Religion?  Surely we aren't talking about religions.  I don't talk about religions if I can get away with it.

 

I'm just talking about removing stress from our life.

[Boy]

Fair enough

[forestofclarity]

He has said many different things to many people. I have to just see where I takes me

 

Q: When a man realises the Self, what will he see?

 

A: There is no seeing. Seeing is only being. The state of Self-realisation, as we call it, is not attaining something new

or reaching some goal which is far away, but simply being that which you always are and which you always have

been. All that is needed is that you give up your realisation of the not-true as true. All of us are regarding as real that

which is not real. We have only to give up this practice on our part. Then we shall realise the Self as the Self; in other

words, ‘Be the Self. At one stage you will laugh at yourself for trying to discover the Self which is so self-evident. So,

what can we say to this question?

 

That stage transcends the seer and the seen. There is no seer there to see anything. The seer who is seeing all this now

ceases to exist and the Self alone remains.

 

 

from Be As You Are, The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi

[Marblehead]

Last paragraph modified based on my understanding:

 

That reality transcends the ego and its flaws.  There is no ego there to see anything.  The ego that is seeing all this now ceases to exist and the Self alone remains.

[dwai]

[Boy]

Last paragraph modified based on my understanding:

 

That reality transcends the ego and its flaws.  There is no ego there to see anything.  The ego that is seeing all this now ceases to exist and the Self alone remains.

How would you define "ego"?

[Marblehead]

How would you define "ego"?

 

Fair question but difficult to define.

 

And my post above was not well worded.

 

Ego:  The image we hold of our true essence.  Many of us have been looking into dirty or otherwise flawed mirrors.  We see in our self things that are not true and are never seen by anyone else.

 

I have said before that I love my ego.  I stand to that.  But I do try to hold it to the reality of what I really am.  Neither inflated or deflated.  Yeah, sometimes it get a little inflated but returns to normal after a while.

 

So lets take that first sentence:  That reality transcends the ego and its flaws.

 

Perhaps this would read better as:  That reality transcends the flaws of our ego.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Marblehead

[Orion]

Pretty sure that observing the observer is an oxymoron... whatever is trying to observe the observer is a temporary, transient layer that will dissolve once the exercise ceases. While it's being generated, it would become *the* observer observing an observer observing it, but since the temporary observer is a generated phenomenon from the permanent observer, they are really one thing. Jeeze... experiencing it is so much simpler than explaining it, lol

 

Emptiness meditations are kind of redundant for me at this point... I'm aware of the observer all the time now, so everything that's happening seems like a meditation. When we wake up in the morning, most of us immediately do the meditation of "me", and the story of the day begins. Right now I'm meditating on the subject at hand as I write this. In a minute I'll meditate on cooking dinner.

 

When you do literal meditation where you sit and relax into presence, you're just meditating on meditation. The observer never changes. It's always the eye of the storm of whatever is going on.