Meditating on the Meditator

[dwai]

I think as it is the case with everything else, there is a time for something to happen. It doesn't happen sooner or later than when it is meant to. 

 

When we meditate, we are the observer. The mind, body etc are the objects of observation.

 

When we turn the observation on the observer itself, it becomes apparent that the observer is unchanging and still. So observing the observer results in staying in the stillness. 

 

It is not easy though..as the tendency is to go out and pick objects that change. That is the nature of the conditioned consciousness. In a way, in meditation, the consciousness is observing the mind stuff. When consciousness focuses on pure awareness instead (or consciousness itself), it rests in the stillness and becomes still. Being still, it is free of objects - so empty. And emptiness pervades.

 

This is what I suppose is what the Rishis mean by "rest in the stillness" or "stay focussed on the Self". The mind starts over and over again...and it is hard to be patient enough to break out from the pattern of "observing things" to "observing no thing". But have to gently go back to the observer.

 

 

[Marblehead]

You add more "stuff" to meditation than I do.  I know that there are many forms of meditation and many concern focusing of something. 

 

Yes, "rest in the stillness" is a perfect way to put it.  That's basically what I am speaking to when I talk about the Valley Spirit or resting in Yin.

 

I suppose that the most important thing is kicking the monkey out of the mind.

[doc benway]

In a way, in meditation, the consciousness is observing the mind stuff. When consciousness focuses on pure awareness instead (or consciousness itself), it rests in the stillness and becomes still.

 

I think that depends on what we mean by meditation.

There are lots of meditations that involve prayers, mantras, visualizations, and so forth.

These are all using the "mind stuff" to to loosen its hold on us.

 

Sometimes we use the word meditation to mean that state that transcends the "mind stuff."

 

In my practice, we connect with three aspects - stillness (of the body), silence (of the speech), and spaciousness (of the heart/mind). Very similar to what you are referring to.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I think as it is the case with everything else, there is a time for something to happen. It doesn't happen sooner or later than when it is meant to.

 

When we meditate, we are the observer. The mind, body etc are the objects of observation.

 

When we turn the observation on the observer itself, it becomes apparent that the observer is unchanging and still. So observing the observer results in staying in the stillness.

 

 

Hi Dwai,

When we observe the observer, it becomes apparent that the observer changes with each observation, yet what is observing the changing observer remains still. So, observing the observer is something called, in Buddhist terms, rigpa, the clear light, primordial awareness.

 

In other terms, there is the object and the subject. The subject (the observer) does become still, but there is something else observing the subject which is not a subject.

 

It is not easy though..as the tendency is to go out and pick objects that change. That is the nature of the conditioned consciousness. In a way, in meditation, the consciousness is observing the mind stuff. When consciousness focuses on pure awareness instead (or consciousness itself), it rests in the stillness and becomes still. Being still, it is free of objects - so empty. And emptiness pervades.

 

 

The rigpa does not become still, it was always still. It is the movement of consciousness that can become still revealing what is beyond, permitting the observer to see through. However, you have to shatter that consciousness, break through it to reveal what is beyond. If you don't, you might well be perceiving from consciousness instead of rigpa.

 

Also, I think you are the victim, like most, whom think that emptiness is void, nothing perceivable, like space. Emptiness in Buddhism does not refer to a blank state, empty space or nothing. Emptiness is a term that denotes that everything does not have any inherent existence.

 

When you are in rigpa, you still see objects and things and they seem like one taste, all the same. So if you are seeing nothing then you have a ways to go. Pure rigpa is often described as blissful, luminous and empty so people think that there is nothing to perceive, yet emptiness is full.

 

This is what I suppose is what the Rishis mean by "rest in the stillness" or "stay focussed on the Self". The mind starts over and over again...and it is hard to be patient enough to break out from the pattern of "observing things" to "observing no thing". But have to gently go back to the observer.

 

 

Again, you aren't observing "no thing", instead, you should be not grasping at what you are observing. Let everything appear, remain and dissolve. Don't go searching for empty space or the conventional meaning of "emptiness"

 

In Buddhist advice from the Dzogchen tradition, when you are resting and the mind has settled, yell out a "Pat" and shatter the stillness. It is a shock and it breaks through the consciousness revealing pure immaculate rigpa. Otherwise, you are just resting in the alaya like a marmot sunning on a rock.

 

Now, I don't think you are Buddhist and that is ok with me. I thought I would give you my opinion so that you might see the subtle differences and where you diverge.

 

[3bob]

Please get off it TI,  you could go whole hog Buddhist and enjoy that particular raft, thus quit quoting or trying to understand, interpret, correlate or compare Vedic related masters and their spiritual teachings or their orders to where and how you think they fall short when it comes to your present hodge-podge.

Edited July 27, 2016 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Hehehe.  Seems we need a little meditation before we continue.

[Jetsun]

You can't observe the observer, the observed and observer can meld into one though

[Marblehead]

You can't observe the observer, the observed and observer can meld into one though

 

That is pretty close to empty-minded meditation.

[Cheshire Cat]

[...]When consciousness focuses on pure awareness instead (or consciousness itself), it rests in the stillness and becomes still. Being still, it is free of objects - so empty. And emptiness pervades.

 

This is what I suppose is what the Rishis mean by "rest in the stillness" or "stay focussed on the Self". The mind starts over and over again...and it is hard to be patient enough to break out from the pattern of "observing things" to "observing no thing". But have to gently go back to the observer.

 

I've heard this shit many times...

You have five senses, which one do you rely upon to perceive such a thing as "pure awareness"?

 

[Marblehead]

Yes, I can see it is your grumpy day.  Hehehe.

 

He uses his sixth sense.  This is, his mindless mind.  Imagine me saying that!!!

 

Concepts and word usage vary from tradition to tradition.

 

Many types of meditation stop at the mind.  Chuang Tzu went further and eliminated the mind as well.

[dwai]

I've heard this shit many times...

You have five senses, which one do you rely upon to perceive such a thing as "pure awareness"?

 

None of the five senses. It's hard to explain...only can be experienced.

[Jetsun]

If you examine the context of your senses from direct experience then the context can be that which is perceiving. take for example a sound in the distance, the sound arises out of something - moves through something - then dissolves into something. you could call that something awareness and the senses arise within awareness as a transient element therefore they cannot define awareness.

[Tibetan_Ice]

You can't observe the observer,

...

 

Er...yes you can... Ramana called it the "I-I"

[dwai]

You can't observe the observer, the observed and observer can meld into one though

 

Attempts by the "mind" to observe the observer causes a massive infinite regression type experience and ends up shutting down the mind

 

Then we can just "be". It's hard to explain. All I get is stillness. Even as I've been incorporating this while moving -- during Taiji practice,  I turn back towards the "witness" and stillness ensues. The body moves, the energy flows but the mind is mostly still. Only observing the body sensations from time to time. It is a strange feeling...very different from how it feels when I'm not doing this. Like the world is flowing about around me, including the body...but I'm totally still at the center. 

[Marblehead]

 All I get is stillness.

I wish you would have used the word "emptiness" instead of "stillness" in that sentence.  That would have caused me great laughter.

[doc benway]

I've heard this shit many times...

You have five senses, which one do you rely upon to perceive such a thing as "pure awareness"?

 

It is possible to have a similar experience in deep sleep, when the five sense are disengaged completely - this is the objective of sleep yoga practice.

[dwai]

I wish you would have used the word "emptiness" instead of "stillness" in that sentence.  That would have caused me great laughter.

 

The stillness is empty...as it is without any content (objects)

[Cheshire Cat]

It is possible to have a similar experience in deep sleep, when the five sense are disengaged completely - this is the objective of sleep yoga practice.

 

I sincerely doubt that someone could do this.

 

When the senses are disengaged, memory kicks in and build a sensate experience... out of that peculiar experience, it comes a peculiar Self. When the experience of the dream is gone, this Self is gone.

In deep sleep, there's nothing at all and none experiencing it.

 

There's no such a thing as a 6th sense.

[doc benway]

I sincerely doubt that someone could do this.

 

When the senses are disengaged, memory kicks in and build a sensate experience... out of that peculiar experience, it comes a peculiar Self. When the experience of the dream is gone, this Self is gone.

In deep sleep, there's nothing at all and none experiencing it.

 

There's no such a thing as a 6th sense.

 

Practitioners of dream and sleep yoga do it. 

I've done it.

[dwai]

I sincerely doubt that someone could do this.

 

When the senses are disengaged, memory kicks in and build a sensate experience... out of that peculiar experience, it comes a peculiar Self. When the experience of the dream is gone, this Self is gone.

In deep sleep, there's nothing at all and none experiencing it.

 

There's no such a thing as a 6th sense.

 

To get to the deep sleep state while wide awake is called "Turiya" in Yoga and indian spiritual systems.

[Tibetan_Ice]

To get to the deep sleep state while wide awake is called "Turiya" in Yoga and indian spiritual systems.

That happened to me. I had changed my regular routine to a meditation of just feeling my presence as a field in and around my body. I spent about two hours a day performing that style of meditation.

 

After three days of performing that style of meditation, while I was sleeping in bed at night, I could hear someone snoring. It was me!

 

When I looked down I could see my mind dreaming, I could see the dream scenes and they were small and far away. The vantage point I was in seemed to be a wide open empty space and I felt like I was a little stationary point of view. I did not loose awareness and just remained, listening to my body snoring, watching the ltttle dreams come and go in cycles. In the morning, when the body woke up, it was like a big explosion in slow motion as waking consciousness arrived and the world of forms appeared once more.

 

At first I thought I would be very tired since I had been aware without any "sleep" but I was fine. I guess my body and mind were getting the rest that they needed.

 

In all, I experienced 24 hour awareness for 1 1/2 weeks, without any detrimental effects.

After a while I decided that I liked being not aware during sleep more than experiencing this vast empty space and quit the "presence" meditation as a regular routine. I didn't think I was getting anywhere or progressing.

[Cheshire Cat]

Practitioners of dream and sleep yoga do it. 

I've done it.

 

That's what they say... and along with it, I could say that I can reach a super-state of ultra-subtle micro-clear luminescent light which is the most secret essence of the mind of the Buddhas, pristine awareness of the primordial consciousness.

It doesn't take too much to learn how to speak of nothing in this way.

 

Those who are clear about themselves, they know that they cannot recollect a single experience outside of the combinations of the 5 senses: even the most subtle and sublime experience of a state of clear light in a dream state... it's still a matter of vision, the sense of sight becomes prevalent.

Yes, this is an advanced outcome of the training in concentration... but it's just a very subtle experience of the illusion of the Self.

 

When people sit and say to themselves (and to others in public forums) that they rest in pure awareness or "feeling their presence", what they're really doing is resting in the tactile sensations of their bodies (again, one of the 5 senses).

 

Since the Buddha was quite clear about himself, he understood that because of this precise thing, there's no such a thing as a Self. There is none who perceive: there are just sensations and memory.

Buddhism wasn't about investigating reality to find out where's the self... it was about understanding that there's no self to reach detachment and avoid suffering. That's all. Meditation was 1/8 of the entire Path.

 

To get to the deep sleep state while wide awake is called "Turiya" in Yoga and indian spiritual systems.

 

They may call it even Waka-Taka and smile from the verge of the Universe while saying it... it's just a philosophical concept of something that, according to a mere theory, should exist to fit a precise world-view...

[Marblehead]

I sincerely doubt that someone could do this.

 

Ha!  That's only because you haven't done it yet.

 

When the senses are disengaged, memory kicks in and build a sensate experience...

 

But if you are meditating properly even the memories stop.

 

out of that peculiar experience, it comes a peculiar Self. When the experience of the dream is gone, this Self is gone.

In deep sleep, there's nothing at all and none experiencing it.

 

This also happens during empty-minded meditation.

 

There's no such a thing as a 6th sense.

 

I actually agree with you but there are a number of member here who disagree with both of us.

 

[Marblehead]

To get to the deep sleep state while wide awake is called "Turiya" in Yoga and indian spiritual systems.

I call it being spaced out.

[Marblehead]

In all, I experienced 24 hour awareness for 1 1/2 weeks, without any detrimental effects.

After a while I decided that I liked being not aware during sleep more than experiencing this vast empty space and quit the "presence" meditation as a regular routine. I didn't think I was getting anywhere or progressing.

Yeah, I much prefer dreamless sleep.  It allows the brain to get more rest.