This is QiGong, right?

[Aeran]

This is a materialistic way of thinking which can only enhance cynicism and defeatism in your mind. What you're actually asking is: where is the money, bro? where is the fame?

 

Where is the point in anything we do if it doesn't produce money, right?

inb4 "I didn't speak about money. That's not what I wrote."

 

Yeah, well, this is what you're implying, strongly. But I don't blame you. Money is always at the back of our minds; it's not our fault. It has attached itself to our 1st chakra.

 

Anyway, replace showing off with demonstration, look up the definition of demonstration, and you'll find your answer. I remember when I was a kid and found or did something cool, I immediately wanted to show it to the other kids, not to show off, and especially not to make money, but to convince them follow me into an adventure, find or do more cool stuff.

 

Does this ring a bell?

 

Wow, you're pretty off the mark there dude. Maybe you misread my post?

 

Putting aside the accusations that I'm some kind of greedy, fame-mongering materialist :/ what I'm concerned about is that, as I said above, the ability to create a gust of wind out of nowhere has no inherent purpose. There is no practical use to which it can be put, beyond showing off and demonstrating to people "I can do something you can't."

 

Even if he is creating the gusts of wind, so what? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm asking how is whatever he's doing improving his life or the lives of his "students," or otherwise making the world a better place in some way that would make it a worthwhile pursuit?

 

The thing is there are abilities which can be cultivated which do have practical uses, in that they allow you to help people and make the world a better place (namly, different types of healing), or open your perspective on the world and allow you to perceive reality more fully in a way that makes your life more fulfilling (things like clairvoyance, astral projection, etc). And there are other effects of cultivation which aren't necessarily "abilities," but which are highly desirable in their own right - good health, longevity, spiritual development, and so on.

 

But what's allegedly being demonstrated in the video has nothing to do with any of that, as far as he's demonstrated. Being able to create gusts of wind isn't going to make you happier, or healthier, or more spiritually developed, it isn't going to enhance your perception of the world or allow you to make the world a better place or improve the life of other people. So again, I ask, what purpose does it serve?

 

There is an argument to be made, and you seem to be touching on it, that these kinds of abilities can be an important tool in opening people's minds to the greater capabilities of humanity - I don't necessarily disagree with it, and have in fact made that argument before. But I don't think something so subtle as potentially influencing the flow of wind is going to change many minds that aren't already extremely open to the idea. It's certainly not going to change the mind of anyone with even the slightest scrap of doubt already in their mind.

[StingingNettle]

 

This is QiGong, right?

 

 

No. At times he's talking while doing it.  While Chi-kung is breathing and moving, rotating your wrist like that really isn't the long slow type movements you would expect with chi-kung.

 

The above comment is assuming the video is even real. 

Edited August 23, 2016 by StingingNettle

[Lao Sun Tao]

Wow, you're pretty off the mark there dude. Maybe you misread my post?

 

Putting aside the accusations that I'm some kind of greedy, fame-mongering materialist :/ what I'm concerned about is that, as I said above, the ability to create a gust of wind out of nowhere has no inherent purpose. There is no practical use to which it can be put, beyond showing off and demonstrating to people "I can do something you can't."

 

Even if he is creating the gusts of wind, so what? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm asking how is whatever he's doing improving his life or the lives of his "students," or otherwise making the world a better place in some way that would make it a worthwhile pursuit?

 

The thing is there are abilities which can be cultivated which do have practical uses, in that they allow you to help people and make the world a better place (namly, different types of healing), or open your perspective on the world and allow you to perceive reality more fully in a way that makes your life more fulfilling (things like clairvoyance, astral projection, etc). And there are other effects of cultivation which aren't necessarily "abilities," but which are highly desirable in their own right - good health, longevity, spiritual development, and so on.

 

But what's allegedly being demonstrated in the video has nothing to do with any of that, as far as he's demonstrated. Being able to create gusts of wind isn't going to make you happier, or healthier, or more spiritually developed, it isn't going to enhance your perception of the world or allow you to make the world a better place or improve the life of other people. So again, I ask, what purpose does it serve?

 

There is an argument to be made, and you seem to be touching on it, that these kinds of abilities can be an important tool in opening people's minds to the greater capabilities of humanity - I don't necessarily disagree with it, and have in fact made that argument before. But I don't think something so subtle as potentially influencing the flow of wind is going to change many minds that aren't already extremely open to the idea. It's certainly not going to change the mind of anyone with even the slightest scrap of doubt already in their mind.

When things are first born they don't have a purpose, and those who are born for a purpose usually don't live up to it. And this goes about anything. Look at Coca-Cola; what was its purpose of creation? Look at art; what's the purpose of art? Also, if you really expect to find a purpose for something so basic then you're overreaching.

 

To simply reject something because it has no evident purpose right from the get-go is cynical. That is why I mentioned money. I bet if this dude was making crazy money like Uri Geller, for example, you wouldn't be asking "what's the point?" you'd be asking "is this legit?" and then there would be those who believed it was legit and those who didn't.

 

And we have reached today and people still don't know if bending spoon is actually possible or not. I wonder if I asked the people here if they believe it's possible. I wonder what would happen.

 

Anyway, I'm bored having this kind of conversations. Carnegie said that if you lose an argument, you lose, and if you win an argument, you lose. No one can change anyone's mind except himself. And I'm not here to change people's minds but to cultivate my own. Time to fly off to another thread.

 

Laters.

[NotVoid]

I see a few people seem to be getting fairly bent out of shape and going on the attack against others simply because those others have expressed some skepticism about what is shown in these videos.   Why would some people get upset and go on the attack against others just because some other people have a different opinion than they do? The answer is of course because of belief. When a person has certain beliefs which are at least fairly important within their world view, they will immediately start feeling very uncomfortable if they are presented with information or views which may oppose something they really want to believe. Some common reactions/responses when this occurs are:

1) Completely ignoring the opposing information or arguments.

2) Going on the attack (personal insults, strange rationalizations, make untrue accusations, introduce red herrings and straw man arguments, etc. etc.).

 

Since we have definitely been seeing a fair bit of the above from a couple of persons here, it is a pretty sure bet that they are reacting from a belief/world view protection position. Unfortunately there is just little to no chance of reasoning with a person when they are acting/reacting in such a way, as I am sure everyone has experienced many, many times in their life.

 

There are three positions that a person can take when encountering something that is a fair bit out of range of their common everyday experience:

 

1) Accept it and believe it at face value without any questioning.

This can occur when this out of the ordinary thing or event or whatever fits in with some beliefs a person already holds. Since it helps support some beliefs a person already has, it can be embraced with little to no questioning.

 

2) Neither believe or not believe. Just simply reserve coming to any conclusions at all until you are able to get a lot more information and/or see or experience this in person for yourself, etc.

 

3) Reject it and believe it is definitely false, again just based on face value.

Like 1) above,  this would also be a matter of belief if a person doesn't have some decent evidence to back up their belief that it is definitely false.

 

So, from the above three items we can see that 1 and 3 are matters of unconfirmed belief unless a person already has some significant direct personal experience with the matter in question, or otherwise has a lot of decent and reliable evidence which strongly supports their belief.

 

In the case where there is just not sufficient evidence or related experience to come to a reasonable conclusion about something, then I think that taking the stance in item 2) above would be the most reasonable position. This is all that I have been saying.

 

Lao Sun Tao: Jumping all over people just because they express a bit of healthy skepticism about something like this makes no sense. I suggest you read what I wrote above here and think it over. No reasonable person is going to want to discuss things with you much around here if you start jumping all over people and twisting their words, etc. simply because they express a different opinion than you.   If you are behaving this way, it is a pretty good chance it is because you have beliefs on the line which you are very sensitive about. If you are so sensitive about such topics, it is probably better to avoid such topics rather than attacking people who might have a different point of view than yourself, no? Treating people with fairness and respect can go a long way in this world.

All the best...

[Wu Ming Jen]

Where is the recycle bin for threads. I can imagine that those who have lost touch with their own real magic must fantasize over abilities of other rather then self and live in such illusion that all hopes of real abilities are forever gone.

 

There seems to be a preoccupation with fantasy, semen retention,powers and more all leading to stagnation of the spirit and shortening of a good life and should be eliminated ASAP.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Edited August 27, 2016 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Papayapple]

Fod better or worse, this forum came out to be very different than I expected it to be.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Fod better or worse, this forum came out to be very different than I expected it to be.

 

I can relate. What did you expect? (curiosity and not sarcasm, just to be clear )

[Papayapple]

I can relate. What did you expect? (curiosity and not sarcasm, just to be clear )

Hi Rocky, nice to hear hehe.

I thought that this kind of forum is all about interpreting every single line of daoist text ever written, in a somewhat approachable manner.

To be honest I didnt really dig deep into the dedicated section for that reason. Some folks here are using too much abstract terms and academic logic, which is a bit too much for me. Others just rumble, which is fine, but gives an impression of daoism being a trivial thing.

 

I guess what I would like to see more of are things like detailed descriptions of certain experiences, testimonials of practitioners and more of a down to earth analogies.

 

Not wanting to come across as ignorant, as I know that is to be found here too(I just get distracted by the weirdosa, and dont have time to study DDJ after lol).

 

Could be that I came here too late, and all the good stuff has been dealed with and buried in time. Too bad.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Hi Rocky, nice to hear hehe.

I thought that this kind of forum is all about interpreting every single line of daoist text ever written, in a somewhat approachable manner.

To be honest I didnt really dig deep into the dedicated section for that reason. Some folks here are using too much abstract terms and academic logic, which is a bit too much for me. Others just rumble, which is fine, but gives an impression of daoism being a trivial thing.

I guess what I would like to see more of are things like detailed descriptions of certain experiences, testimonials of practitioners and more of a down to earth analogies.

Not wanting to come across as ignorant, as I know that is to be found here too(I just get distracted by the weirdosa, and dont have time to study DDJ after lol).

Could be that I came here too late, and all the good stuff has been dealed with and buried in time. Too bad.

Don't despair, it might all appear a little technical/trivial/crazy/disgusting/fun/obsessive but there's quite a few gems on here.

It's a living community and if you leave ample time for digestion there is some potent nourishment here!

My recipe is to leave the textual studies and academia for the days i'm feeling really brave

The DDJ section is a good one though, Chuang Tsu also!

Edited August 30, 2016 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Aeran]

I guess what I would like to see more of are things like detailed descriptions of certain experiences, testimonials of practitioners and more of a down to earth analogies.

 

 

Part of what's happening here is something I've noticed in a lot of "spiritual" forums, which is that a lot of the people that post on them have a kind of intense modesty when it comes to describing their personal experiences, especially anything particularly "spiritual" or involving "powers" or psychic effects or anything along those lines.

 

I'm not judging, just saying that I've heard a lot of people describe things in private correspondences that they never discuss in public.

[LaoZiDao]

LOL you think that is real?

Clearly CGI

[Papayapple]

Part of what's happening here is something I've noticed in a lot of "spiritual" forums, which is that a lot of the people that post on them have a kind of intense modesty when it comes to describing their personal experiences, especially anything particularly "spiritual" or involving "powers" or psychic effects or anything along those lines.

 

I'm not judging, just saying that I've heard a lot of people describe things in private correspondences that they never discuss in public.

Yeah especially occultists.

[Eques Peregrinus]

Yeah especially occultists.

 

Well, if nothing was occulted, the guys who seeks that stuff would not be called occultists.

[Papayapple]

But it gives the impression that there is nothing really behind it. So why pursue it?

[Eques Peregrinus]

There are mysteries, arcanes, etc... all these terms are synonymous for secrets. The difference between their usages comes from their contexts. "Mystery" is generally used in a religious or mythological context, while "secret" is more often used in hermeticism, and "arcane" in the tarot or in certain paracelsian texts.

 

The intellectual knowledge is what can be discussed, and the experimental knowledge is the secret, because it can not be shared.

 

(I suppose this is what Zhuangzi means when he wrote about that wheelwright telling a nobleman that his readings made by ancient philosophers were dead guys' shit.)

[Lee]

The videos he's making are real for sure, i myself have spent a lot of time developing such things but i always find that its nothing more than a distraction, to be fair iv actually taught this to a lot of people and have always said that it is nothing more than a distraction. 

 

As for evolved ministry itself i would stay away from them, i was once offered a job with them to teach but i did not accept due to them not willing to pay and want me to do hours of daily work for nothing. 

 

This school was manifested over months of backstabbing planning to steal students from another school called avatar energy mastery institute, grubb used to work with this school and whilst doing so created a small amount of committed followers who would then later on attempted to destroy aemi!

 

Monk who owned aemi was known for being unstable and also know for pushing his development too far too fast and we all know that with psychological issues this is not a good thing at all, when monk had an episode grubb then took his advantage to try and steal as many students as possible and try to recruit the best and most gifted students of aemi for free.

 

That retreat video is not evolved ministry but an aemi retreat that they seem to use as their own, yes grubb was teaching in this video but the students were all aemi and not ministry. 

 

I could go on and personally attack this guy over and over due to my own experiences with him but id rather not waste my energy doing so, all i say is this, if you really want to explore this stuff and feel ministry is for you, good luck! because my time in knowing him iv seen nothing more than split personality, ego driven, delusion and lies.

[Vajra Fist]

I kind of get the impression this sort of stuff works through directing external low-level spirits to carry out feats. You're inviting them onto your body or giving a part of your own essence, in exchange for seemingly being able to show off supernormal abilities.

 

Genuine high level masters have these abilities, but wouldn't demonstrate them in the manner of a magic show, because it causes an attachment of pursuit in those who are starting on the path. Pursuits are precisely what you need to abandon to reach that high level, enlightened state.

 

No offence to you, Lee. Thanks for clarifying those points above.

[Lee]

I kind of get the impression this sort of stuff works through directing external low-level spirits to carry out feats. You're inviting them onto your body or giving a part of your own essence, in exchange for seemingly being able to show off supernormal abilities.

 

Genuine high level masters have these abilities, but wouldn't demonstrate them in the manner of a magic show, because it causes an attachment of pursuit in those who are starting on the path. Pursuits are precisely what you need to abandon to reach that high level, enlightened state.

 

No offence to you, Lee. Thanks for clarifying those points above.

 

no offence taken, i do know myself that this area of energy practice can in fact cause other forms of energy to feed off of you as iv seen this in others, but from my own personal experiences with this i feel that this is nothing more than a demonstration of what is going on inside, the more awareness one has within also has the same level on the external energies. of course knowing how to do this stuff properly is the main point however the better you are at the internal stuff the better you are on the external stuff. 

 

the way i achieve this is by using the same methods of internal work but in reverse, instead of moving and cultivating energy within i do this externally and this is what causes the pk to work, so its just like doing a qigong practice but rather than inwards cultivation its outwards if that makes sense. 

 

although this area is a distraction i do feel its a good way to get people to see the real goals and why they even wanted to start working with energy in the first place, i see more and more a lot of people placing more concentration into this, so i teach it and through that everyone so far i have taught has realised that although this area of it is interesting and fun to do it serves no real purpose at all, unless you wish to use it to integrate with healing, so even though it has its bad points it also has its good ones.

 

Take for example all of my students have spent time trying to do this to find no results, i teach them that its not going to work unless they work on the internal and deeper stuff, they do this and find that they spend more time working with the pk more and it then dies or becomes very weak, this is the first lesson i teach that actually comes into use of learning something important. i explain that the reason they could do it was because they focused more energy on building up their development to make it work and then when this became less interesting to them because they could now do pk it then slowly but surely starts to not work effectively. So far all of my students have gone from wanting so called power and to be able to do things others cant, to then going to understanding that this is just a reflection of how well they can cultivate within and the interest to work with pk becomes less and less interesting because they know that they will just spend a lot of time cultivating to just be able to move objects and in result be placed back to the area they first started at.