Seeing, Recognising & Maintaining One's Enlightening Potential - Split

[C T]

Well, there is a structure here, but i would like to think its a little bit organic too and not rigid like a fallen log. 

 

 

 

Ultimate serenity is the coming to rest of all ways of taking things - the repose of named things; no truths had ever been taught by a buddha for anyone, anywhere. ~ Nagarjuna

Edited July 20, 2016 by C T

[doc benway]

How many natural states are there?

[manitou]

Well, there is a structure here, but i would like to think its a little bit organic too and not rigid like a fallen log. 

 

 

 

Ultimate serenity is the coming to rest of all ways of taking things - the repose of named things; no truths had ever been taught by a buddha for anyone, anywhere. ~ Nagarjuna

 

 

I like the idea of organic.  It is growing, unconfined.  No truths have ever been taught by a buddha for anyone, anywhere.  We must find it for ourselves in the end run.  Otherwise we are looking at the finger.

[Tibetan_Ice]

How many natural states are there?

There would be unlimited natural states, one per sentient being and their manifestations are quantumly entangled.

[Bud Jetsun]

Barbara, there is not One Mind otherwise we all would have become enlightened when Buddha did.

There is no 'Oneness' in Buddhism.

Buddha did not 'become' enlightened. Nor could he or any other being.

 

Buddha and all beings natural state is enlightenment. Buddha achieved awareness and appreciation of his natural enlightened state.

 

Awareness of Oneness is intimately linked to awareness of enlightenment. Various faces of the same indescribable coin.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Edited July 20, 2016 by Bud Jetsun

[doc benway]

There would be unlimited natural states, one per sentient being and their manifestations are quantumly entangled.

 

I don't find it quite so simple and I freely admit that I do not have a better explanation.

 

I do acknowledge that there is no transcendent reality or shared mind in Buddhist thought. 

 

Multiple non-dualities?

Multiple unbounded spaces?

Does that make sense?

Perhaps, perhaps not... it certainly is a delicious mystery for me, and that is enough.

 

To be honest, it doesn't really matter.

It is as it is, the Dzogchen way is to simply let go and leave it as it is. 

 

I think CT made a very important point. We often have a tendency to correct or negate others when they are sharing a personal experience. This has the effect of invalidating their experience and is completely gratuitous. We cannot experience their perspective independently. The alternative is to maintain openness and in that openness there is a possibility of connection and growth. We need to make words work for us, not the other way around.

[manitou]

When we Know Ourself and get down to the basic, it is love.  Does everyone  have a different version of that, or is love love?  and what is a connection to each other?  Is there a seam between you and me?  Is the connecting rod made out of something different but joined?  Physically, are we all the same stardust?  And when that is broken down, are we all the same nothingness?  Or are we separate nothingnesses?  Did Buddha stay within the constraints of Hindu thought which, before his breakthrough, was the box his mind was in?  Are we entitled to do the same that he did?  To break through, using the wisdom attained through our own knowledge of ourselves?  Or must we remain in the rubbish heap of thought of those previous to us?  After all, those minds kept growing after the statement was made.

 

Or are these all the separate Buddha-lands as described in the Sutras?  And do the Buddha-lands meet in one place?  Are they part of the quantum entanglement as well, circling something mysterious and incapable of description?

 

The great mystery.

[doc benway]

The core method of the Bön Dzogchen method is Guru Yoga - becoming One with the root master, Kuntuzangpo; occupying the mind space of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of the 3 times.  

 

Listening to a talk on tantra today, the emphasis was on transcending the limited self by transforming into, becoming one with, the deity. Breaking free of the ego through connection with a much bigger concept and experience of self.

 

The experience of oneness that you speak of, manitou, is that very transcendence, the union with the guru.

 

Oneness abounds in these teachings.

[Tibetan_Ice]

The core method of the Bön Dzogchen method is Guru Yoga - becoming One with the root master, Kuntuzangpo; occupying the mind space of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of the 3 times.

 

Listening to a talk on tantra today, the emphasis was on transcending the limited self by transforming into, becoming one with, the deity. Breaking free of the ego through connection with a much bigger concept and experience of self.

 

The experience of oneness that you speak of, manitou, is that very transcendence, the union with the guru.

 

Oneness abounds in these teachings.

Oneness does not abound in those teachings,

 

Tantric "transforming into" is not becoming one with a guru, it is not even becoming one with a deity which was outside of yourself. This point is very clear. You are already one with your manifestations but they are still your own manifestations.

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/39937-beyond-the-spiritual-heart/?p=661743

 

Meditating a Yidam deity is central in Vajrayana. It is crucial for Vajrayana practitioners to know that Yidam deities are not external to one’s own mind, rather they are images that help us work with our own mind. Yidams are the unblemished reflection of the primordial and innate true nature of our mind that manifests in specific forms and colors. The purpose and goal of our practice is to attain perfect Buddhahood, which manifests in three aspects or forms at fruition – the Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya. It is important to know that the three kayas are indivisible.

 

 

Maintaining a view of "oneness" with a deity, guru or yidam indicates that one does not yet understand emptiness or the purpose of Dzogchen Bon guru yoga.

 

From Tenzin Namdak's Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings, page 33

 

How do we practice Dzogzchen? First we must practice Guru Yoga. [9] But Guru Yoga visualization is something created by our minds. Mind creates this object. The same is the case with the white Tibetan letter A. So, although we begin with such practices, they do not represent the principal practice. That involves entering into a state beyond the mind and we call that state Rigpa. Fixating on some object like the white letter A is only an aid to discovering Rigpa.

 

 

There were never two and now there is "oneness".

 

More from the same book:

Once we have realized the Dzogchen view, then the next question is how to practice. We need to practice because this is how we can develop the view, make it more concrete, and remove all doubts. In any session of practice, we begin with Guru Yoga; we have explained how to do Guru Yoga in some detail elsewhere. Then we dissolve the visualization and all thoughts created by the Guru Yoga practice. [8] Even this discursive thought, the Guru Yoga visualization, cannot stand on its own and it dissolves. We just let everything be and keep in this Natural State for as long as possible. Very soon other discursive thoughts arise and disturb us, but if we just relax and let them go, they will self-liberate. At the same time, we look and see who it is that sees this thought. We just allow the thought to dissolve and we come back to the source.

 

 

Tantra is about creation and dissolution. Sure you can be one with your creations, but you were never separate from your creations there to use the term "oneness" when referring to creations which were never separate from rigpa in the first place is kind of stupid and misleading.

 

Question, do you feel guilty that you recommended that Manitou read Krishnamurti crap and now you feel guilty and have an obligation to support her erroneous non-Dzogchen usage of the term "oneness" in the Buddhist sub Forum?

[manitou]

I think Krishnamurti is kind of wonderful.  not a Buddhist, granted - but a Theosophist.  My own personal experience (and I don't really care what camp it falls into) is that there is an intelligence that runs this business that is ingrained within it.  It's like the Daoist principle of 'do nothing'.  When we take our hands off a situation and don't stir the manure, things align as they should.  Has anyone else noticed this?  Like, 'let the chips fall where they may'.  We stop trying to control.

 

This is the oneness I speak of - this intelligence that aligns.  It is within all of us, it is only an instant away at any given moment.  We all possess it.  When I say we are one, we 'are' all this intelligence - but we get in the way of its manifestation because of our own individual ego identities, which are as a result our conditioning.

 

I am also in agreement with the nothingness that has been spoken of here, but in a more physical way.  Yes, there is nothingness, as quantum physics seems to demonstrate.  When matter is broken down, there seems to be nothing at all.  Just thought.  But I still think there is intelligence at play in the whole thing.  So I don't think that's a problem - both nothingness and intelligence can coexist at the same time.  How quantum a statement.  Like a particle and a wave.

 

I don't see any argument anywhere, only some egos being thicker than other egos.  Once this callous is penetrated, the underlying intelligence is free to do its collective thing.

 

Just my opinion, no structure contained within, no -ism involved - just my experience through my own recovery of myself, my reading and triangulation of every philosophical tradition I've come across, and most importantly, the time I've spent on the Dao Bums over the past years, being exposed to so many different points of view, but all containing the intelligence of which I speak.  And I do think it's communal (perhaps my erroneous calling of it the One intelligence), but that's how I've experienced it.

 

To get to this innate intelligence, IMO, is the byproduct of self realization, of cutting through our own baloney.

[doc benway]

Question, do you feel guilty that you recommended that Manitou read Krishnamurti crap and now you feel guilty and have an obligation to support her erroneous non-Dzogchen usage of the term "oneness" in the Buddhist sub Forum?

 

Not sure I ever recommended that manitou read Krishnamurti but assuming I did, the answer to your question is no.

 

There are many teachings in the world. Different people need different things at different times in their lives.

Krishnamurti has helped me a great deal. I don't read him much any more but there is great value in his words, IMO.

 

Dzogchen is about openness more than anything, it may be helpful for you to consider that.

[manitou]

I happen to be reading The Self Aware Universe by Amit Goswami, Ph.D. at the present time.  There is a paragraph that I just read, and it seems to be quite aligned with what we have been talking about.  It speaks of the Absolute Awareness that permeates the Universe, the knowledge of the Mystics:

 

   As the Lankavatara Sutra reminds us;  "These teachings are only a finger pointing to the Noble wisdom...They are intended for the consideration and guidance of the discriminating minds of all people, but they are not the Truth itself, which can only be self-realized within one's own deepest consciousness."

 

 

My take on all this is that there are ways to get to the state of absolute awareness, and perhaps a combination of all of it is the key.  One avenue is the avenue of meditation, wherein one becomes adept and is capable of reaching no-thought, where pure awareness is maintained.  The quality of adeptness is determined by the continuation of this no-thought ability.  The place where conclusion and judgment have been discarded.

 

Or another avenue to absolute awareness is by cutting through the sense of separation that is imposed by our egos.  This process can be started from any point, the point that one is at at any given moment.  This involves really knowing ourselves, understanding our every motivation, seeing our selfishnesses, understanding that our anger stems from fear, understanding our fears and realizing that there really is nothing to fear at all if we are not clinging to attachments.

 

Perhaps another avenue is within the collective consciousness that lies at the bottom of our dreams.  Although our dreams are affected by karma that we have accumulated either by our own actions (or even by historical or ancestral action), our dreams have a way of coping and leveling out that karma.  They can also induce karma of their own.  But underlying the dreams are the consciousness that perhaps we all share.  (I say we do, others on this thread would say we don't)

 

The mystic consciousness comes to us via an incredible transformation of self, an inner transformation.  It's as though there are two elements to enlightenment, if we want to call it that.  Say we're standing at ground zero.  Perhaps there are 50 steps above us, which would represent the teachings and discoveries of those outside of us; the words of others.  The religious structures.  And then there are another 50 steps below ground zero which represents our inner world, the world that must be addressed, and which is even more difficult than the structured one above ground zero.  The reason this is the more difficult of the two is that it requires eroding of the ego, developing the beginner's mind, realizing that our conclusions may be wrong; these very same conclusions that we have our ego invested in.  This is the truly transformative avenue, not the intellectual one.  This is the one that real-izes the personal application of all the words and concepts that we have learned through structure.  The combination of the two enables us to see the moon.

 

This is where we learn to walk our talk.  We put it into play.  We love our brother as ourself.  This is the 'one-ness' that I refer to.  

 

 

Edit:   I just thought of something.  Steve's signature line.  That says it all.  "When I look inside and see that I am nothing, that is wisdom.  When I look outside and see that I am everything, that is love.  And between these two, my life turns."  

 

We are Everything, and we are Nothing.  Quantum physics.

Edited July 23, 2016 by manitou

[doc benway]

As we, as individuals, approach the experience of non-duality - the nature of mind, we approach the non-separation of observer and observed; there is no self there any longer. The illusion of the separate self dissolves like the thought that it is.

The observed and observer become one or, if you prefer a different verb, liberate. This is a direct, personal experience that many of us have.

 

In this context, what would it mean to have infinite natural states? To what would they be related in the absence of separate selves? On what basis would they be defined or distinct from one another? 

 

As Lopon says, "How do we practice Dzogchen? First we must practice Guru Yoga." In Tibetan, this is called bla ma'i rnal 'byor. Bla ma'i is the master and rnal 'byor means to unite with, to become one with. We literally unite our mindstream with the mindstream of the master. Once we have successfully connected with that state of being, the state of union with the guru, there is no need to hold on to any thought, concept, or visualization - they simply dissolve into the base. The union has been achieved. You can choose to censor the word oneness from Buddhist and Bön discussion if you like, TI but I find it a useful word that can impart meaning and host shared experience. Once again, we need to put the words to work for us, not the other way around.

 

One point that Tenzin Rinpoche often makes when he teaches is that when we get together for workshops and retreats there is more going on than the transfer of information. He admonishes us to let go of our attachment and dependence on knowledge and information and to open ourselves to the shared presence of our togetherness - as student and teacher, as friends, as sangha members... There is much more potential there than simply the transfer of information. He does this for a reason - I've experienced it very deeply at multiple retreats. It is every bit as important as any information being transferred.

 

If we are too focused on the information we lose out on the truth itself - the truth of presence, the warmth of connection, the support of relationship, seeing how the teachings live and breath in our daily lives. The Buddha Shakyamuni (and Tonpa Shenrab) never intended these teachings to be a philosophy, they were intended to be an accessible tool to ease our suffering. When asked philosophical questions, the masters will generally and compassionately bring the discussion back to the practical role of the teachings in our lives. This is the spirit in which we should approach Bön and Buddhism, IMO. It is critical that we bring these principles into the trivia and pain of our daily lives. This is the workshop where we master and cultivate and experience growth and transformation. 

 

All just my personal opinion, FWIW.

[Jeff]

 ...

As Lopon says, "How do we practice Dzogchen? First we must practice Guru Yoga." In Tibetan, this is called bla ma'i rnal 'byor. Bla ma'i is the master and rnal 'byor means to unite with, to become one with. We literally unite our mindstream with the mindstream of the master. Once we have successfully connected with that state of being, the state of union with the guru, there is no need to hold on to any thought, concept, or visualization - they simply dissolve into the base. The union has been achieved.

...

 

Thank you for sharing. This is an incredibly important point about uniting the mindstreams with the guru/master.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Thank you for sharing. This is an incredibly important point about uniting the mindstreams with the guru/master.

And who do you suppose Shakyamuni united his mind stream with when he became enlightened?

 

NOBODY!

 

Further, if you could unite your mind with the guru's and the guru was enlightened you would become enlightened.

But that is obviously not the case.

 

Someone doesn't understand something here...

https://youtu.be/hRpT4Y4MPLw

Edited July 24, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

As we, as individuals, approach the experience of non-duality - the nature of mind, we approach the non-separation of observer and observed; there is no self there any longer. The illusion of the separate self dissolves like the thought that it is.

The observed and observer become one or, if you prefer a different verb, liberate. This is a direct, personal experience that many of us have.

 

Your basic assumption here is incorrect. The observer and observed do not unite. Instead they both dissolve away. This is not oneness of observer and observed.

 

Further, each object has its own observer. Just because the observer and observed object dissolve does not mean that the "self" is not there any longer. There are endless objects that the subject can observe and each one, as each pair of subjects and objects dissolve, can reveal a small portion of the natural state. However, that does not translate into "no self" until rigpa is realized and fortified to the point where one can remain detached from each subject and object as they rise, display and dissolve. One realizes that the self was just a temporary conceptual construct and that there is something beyond conceptualization.

 

In this context, what would it mean to have infinite natural states? To what would they be related in the absence of separate selves? On what basis would they be defined or distinct from one another?

 

Your basic context is incorrect therefore any thing that follows would be a waste of time.

 

Each sentient being has its own natural state and that natural state is void of self because self is a conceptual construct and the natural state is beyond conception. Each natural state creates its own universe and those manifestations are/can be quantumly entangled.

 

https://youtu.be/WyA6zTc6W5I

[Kar3n]

And who do you suppose Shakyamuni united his mind stream with when he became enlightened?

 

NOBODY!

 

Further, if you could unite your mind with the guru's and the guru was enlightened you would become enlightened.

But that is obviously not the case.

 

Someone doesn't understand something here...

 

Everything is open to one's own interpretation based on their own level of understanding at the time, even Shakyamuni evolved.

 

Perhaps a little broader thought as to where Buddhism originated and that there may have been others, even deities supporting Gautama as he sat under that tree. Buddha himself taught that we all possess the heart of a Buddha in the third turning of the dharma wheel.

[manitou]

When it happens to you, you can feel it.  But this is entirely subjective, and it is impossible to explain this to another.  It will happen when it happens, once self importance has been removed.

[doc benway]

oops...

Edited July 24, 2016 by steve

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

 

As Lopon says, "How do we practice Dzogchen? First we must practice Guru Yoga." In Tibetan, this is called bla ma'i rnal 'byor. Bla ma'i is the master and rnal 'byor means to unite with, to become one with. We literally unite our mindstream with the mindstream of the master. Once we have successfully connected with that state of being, the state of union with the guru, there is no need to hold on to any thought, concept, or visualization - they simply dissolve into the base. The union has been achieved.

 

...

 

 

You are confusing the preliminary practice of guru yoga with the treatment of the lama in Bon Dzogchen.

 

Your statement that "Once we have successfully connected with that state of being, the state of union with the guru, there is no need to hold on to any thought, concept, or visualization - they simply dissolve into the base" misses the step of dissolving the visualization of the guru in order to enter the natural state.

 

In the practice of guru yoga, you do not stay "connected to the mind created visualization of the guru". It is the dissolution of the visualization that reveals the natural state. This is the preliminar practice.

 

The concept of Union with the lineage is a totally different matter. Connection to a lineage does not automatically dissolve any thought, concept or visualization into the base, as you have written. Union with a lineage is a broader more general form of guru yoga as explained in the following quote:

 

 

From "Golden Letters, the Three Statements of Garab Dorje"

The Sanskrit word guru, "master," that is to say, a spiritual teacher and guide who acts as a catalyst for the spiritual development, transformation, formation, and awakening of the disciple, is translated into Tibetan as bla-ma. This word is interpreted by tradition to mean bla, "superior," and ma, "one who is." Or again, it may be interpreted as bla, "soul," and ma, "mother," because the Lama is like a mother to the soul of the disciple, nurturing this soul and guiding it to liberation and enlightenment. In the Vajrayana it is said that the Guru, or master, is even more important than the Buddha because there is no liberation or enlightenment without the direct introduction given by the Guru. In fact, there would be no Buddhas at all if there were no Gurus. Furthermore, the historical Buddha lived long ago and is not visible today, whereas it is the Guru who actually transmits Dharma to the disciple in the present. For this reason, the practitioner on the spiritual path first pays respect to the Guru before anyone one else.

 

The Tibetan word for doing homage (phyag 'tshal) is also the word indicating the offering of a prostration to a superior authority. In terms of approaching the Dharma, the best way of paying homage to the master is to possess and cultivate the correct view and to continue in that view, integrating it into whatever practice one does, as well as into the activities of everyday life. Here the view referred to is Dzogchen and no lesser view. But "the view" (lta-ba) is not just some sectarian viewpoint arrived at by way of reasoning and analysis. An ordinary view may easily be altered or even abandoned because of some new argument or source of information. Rather, as we have pointed out previously, it is "a way of seeing" (lta-ba). In terms of Dzogchen, it is a way of seeing with naked Awareness (rig-pa gcer mthong), where one's vision is unobstructed and unobscured by conceptual constructions fabricated by the mind. In Samsara our vision in space has become distorted and warped because of the weighty presence of past karma.' Thus, cultivating the view of Dzogchen represents resents the best service to the Guru. The next best method is to practice the generation process and the perfection process belonging to the tantric method of transformation, where one visualizes the meditation deity and recognizes that this manifestation is identical in its essence with one's own Root Guru. The next best method of paying homage to the Guru is to come into his presence and offer him money and service.

 

In both the root text and the author's auto-commentary, the author pays homage to his Root Guru (rtsa-ba'i bla-ma), whose kindness and compassion toward him are unequaled. Traditionally, three kinds of Gurus are distinguished. First there are those masters from whom one has received teachings and who has given one guidance along the path. They are known as 'dren-pa'i bla-ma, "masters who provide guidance." One may have many of these masters throughout out one's lifetime. In one way or another, to a greater or to a lesser extent, drawing on their own knowledge and experience, they have pointed out the way to the disciple and have given him or her advice and encouragement along the path. But it is only the disciple who can walk that path. The master cannot do this for the disciple, no matter how great his or her knowledge and power. As Buddha Shakyamuni himself said, "I can but show you the way. You yourself must walk the path."

 

Then there are the various Gurus in the lineages of transmissions (brgyud-pa'i bla-ma) one has received in this present life. These lineages extend back in time over generations of masters and disciples to the original source of enlightenment. These lineages of transmission (brgyud-pa) are like high-tension electric wires strung across pylons spanning the countryside, bringing electric power to many distant cities from a single hydroelectric generating plant located in the mountains. In the same way, these lineages of transmission bring the blessings of spiritual power and inspiration from the original transcendent source, the Buddha, or from another enlightened being who manifested in the time of the beginning, to all disciples living in the present day who follow the teachings.

 

Finally, there is the Root Guru, who is that master or masters, whether male or female, bestowing upon the disciple the most important portant empowerments or initiations (dbang) which ripen one's stream of consciousness (rgyud smin), and the most essential explanations, which liberate one's mind (sems grol). More than anyone else, it is this Root Guru who is the guide indicating the way and who acts as the catalyst in the alchemical process of the spiritual awakening of the disciple. In this regard, the Root Guru referred to in the text is Jigmed Gyalwe Nyugu ('Jigs-med rgyal-ba'i myu-gu), the Root Guru of Patrul Rinpoche.

 

Moreover, the Root Guru has three aspects: outer, inner, and secret. cret. The Outer Guru (phyi'i bla-ma) is that master who, in his or her physical presence, gives the individual practitioner teaching and introduces troduces one to the nature of one's own mind. The Inner Guru (nang gi bla-ma) is one's own personal meditation deity with whom one identifies oneself in any practice and also upon awakening from sleep in the morning. The deity is felt to reside always in one's heart or always to be seated above the crown of one's head. The Secret Guru (gsang-ba'i bla-ma) is Samantabhadra (Kun to bzang-po), the Primordial dial Buddha (Skt. Adibuddha), who is in reality one's own primordially dially enlightened state, one's inherent Buddha-nature. Thus, in doing homage to the Guru and in making prostrations before him or her, we are not paying homage to some external authority or to some God outside of ourselves; but rather we are recognizing and acknowledging our own inherent Buddhahood which has been there from the very beginning at the very core of our being. And this is our True Guru.

 

According to the Sutra system, the entrance to the spiritual path is marked by taking refuge in the Three jewels, that is, the Buddha, the teacher, the Dharma, the teaching, and the Sangha, the community of practitioners who follow the teaching. To these Three Jewels, the Tantra adds a fourth refuge: the Guru. In terms of Tantra and Dzogchen, the Guru represents the manifest embodiment of all of the Three Jewels, so that by taking refuge in the Guru, all refuges are simultaneously realized.

 

The way in which the practitioner maintains and develops a direct connection with the Guru (bla-ma), who is the source of transmission by way of empowerment and teaching, is the practice of Guru Yoga (bla-ma'i rnal-'byor). This term means the unification of Body, Speech, and Mind (lus ngag yid) with the state of the body, speech, and mind (sku gsung thugs) of the master. From the viewpoint of Dzogchen, no matter what practice one does, one must link that practice with Guru Yoga. In this way, the transmissions that we have received, including the introduction to our own Primordial State, are maintained and enhanced. In this way, the Root Guru and the Lineage Gurus remain inseparably connected with our own mind, infusing our stream of consciousness with their blessings of inspiration and knowledge. Among all practices found in Tantra and Dzogchen, that of Guru Yoga is the most important and essential. And when we practice Guru Yoga properly, according to our author, we thereby unify our view, meditation, and conduct.

 

[doc benway]

And who do you suppose Shakyamuni united his mind stream with when he became enlightened?

 

NOBODY!

 

Correct - the essence of the guru is the enlightened mind, the mindstream of all Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of the three times - Kuntuzangpo.

That essence is unborn and undying, whether the first or last is irrelevant, it is timeless. It is primordially pure. It is already at our very core.

The mindstream with which we unite is that essence in ourselves and it is not other than the very mindstream of the Buddhas. The Bönpos trace their unbroken lineage back far beyond Shakyamuni anyway. 

 

From Lama Zopa Rinpoche and the Lama Yeshe Wisdom Archive:

 

"In reality, even though there are numberless different aspects of buddhas, the holy mind of all the buddhas is one but appears in different aspects to guide us sentient beings, just as all the rivers that go into the ocean become one.

 

The dharmakaya is like the ocean in which many waters are mixed and our various gurus are like drops from the ocean. All our gurus are manifestations of the dharmakaya, the absolute guru, the holy mind of all the buddhas; the absolute guru manifests in an ordinary form in accordance with the level of our karma. This ordinary form is the conventional guru, the essence of which is the absolute guru."

 

 

Further, if you could unite your mind with the guru's and the guru was enlightened you would become enlightened.

But that is obviously not the case.

 

It's not quite that simplistic. To the extent that we are able to fully rest in the nature of mind, we are tasting enlightenment. 

We all manifest those seeds of enlightenment to different degrees. 

Someone doesn't understand something here...

 

That's a nice talk. If you pay attention at 3:00 and 6:00, Wallace seems to be supporting the very point I'm trying to make. 

I also agree with what Wallace has to say about the need for a teacher just before the 1:00 mark.

[doc benway]

Your basic assumption here is incorrect. The observer and observed do not unite. Instead they both dissolve away. This is not oneness of observer and observed.

 

Further, each object has its own observer. Just because the observer and observed object dissolve does not mean that the "self" is not there any longer. There are endless objects that the subject can observe and each one, as each pair of subjects and objects dissolve, can reveal a small portion of the natural state. However, that does not translate into "no self" until rigpa is realized and fortified to the point where one can remain detached from each subject and object as they rise, display and dissolve. One realizes that the self was just a temporary conceptual construct and that there is something beyond conceptualization.

 

This sounds just like Jiddu Krishnamurti.

Your basic context is incorrect therefore any thing that follows would be a waste of time.

 

Feel free to ignore my posts if they are a waste of your time.

Each sentient being has its own natural state and that natural state is void of self because self is a conceptual construct and the natural state is beyond conception. Each natural state creates its own universe and those manifestations are/can be quantumly entangled.

 

 

Another nice clip. I don't disagree with anything he says.

There is clearly some degree of truth to this model.

It's also important to acknowledge that this is a developing theory, not established fact.

Quantum mechanics is very accurate at the atomic level but there is only very early evidence to support quantum effects at the macroscopic level. 

 

It's also instructive to pay attention to his discussion beyond only the points that support your position. 

When you look at the conditions absent the observer/participant, what he calls frozen time, it sounds quite a bit like the natural state - no movement of time, no change, etc... other words often used are unborn, undying, primordially pure, changeless, still, silent, and spacious.

Nothing exists and yet everything is there as potential, waiting to be elicited by the observer.

It's only when we introduce the observer/participant (the ME) that the wave equation collapses to observable experience.

 

"Frozen time" could be the nature of mind and the actual experience and observation is the manifestation of mind.

An interesting possibility.

 

Another way to look at this is that everything "out there" is nothing more than energetic potential.

It is only when we introduce our sensory apparatus and associated interpretive faculty, that we actually elicit tangible qualities like color, form, texture and so forth. The old tree falling in the forest idea.

For example, there is no color red in the universe. It only exists in our neurons. 

Sound does not exist in the absence of an ear and a brain to interpret the signals.

Solidity is neurologic experience based on the softness of our skin and its effect on the underlying pressure receptors.

 

This brief description of "frozen time" seems consistent with experiences of deep meditation and also the verbiage of scriptural descriptions of the base, no? That's an interesting twist, I think. So the degree to which we bring our ego and sensory perception to experience is the degree to which we live in the world of form and desire. As the ego liberates, perhaps all that is left is this "frozen time" absent the observer/participant. Perhaps that is the blissful state of non-duality. 

 

All that said, I'm just playing with ideas.

I find it best not to take things too seriously.

Edited July 24, 2016 by steve

[doc benway]

PS - I think I've derailed this thread enough...

Sorry CT, I'll disengage now.

 

Peace

[Tibetan_Ice]

Steve, you said "Frozen time" could be the nature of mind and the actual experience and observation is the manifestation of mind.

An interesting possibility."

 

I would say that anything that is beyond time would appear to be frozen time. Just like the diamond mind, the clear light, primordial awareness...

 

The diamond mind is clearly explained by the Dalai Lama in his book about Dzogchen called The Heart of Meditation - Discovering the Innermost Awareness

https://www.amazon.com/Heart-Meditation-Discovering-Innermost-Awareness/dp/1559394536

 

The All-Good Diamond Mind

 

IN THE Great Completeness, the naturally arisen clear light is called the “all-good” and “the mind-hero of no beginning and no end.” Naturally pure from the start and endowed with a spontaneous nature, this diamond mind is the basis of all the phenomena occurring in cyclic existence and nirvana. Even while you are still a sentient being and despite the generation of a great many good and bad conceptions such as manifest desire, hatred, and bewilderment, the diamond mind itself is free from the pollutions of these defilements. Water may be extremely dirty; yet its nature remains just clear—its nature is not polluted by dirt. Similarly, no matter what afflictive emotions are generated as the sport of this diamond mind and no matter how powerful they are, innermost awareness itself, the basis of the appearance of such vibrancy, remains unaffected by defilement, beginninglessly pure, all-good.

 

Aiming Your Attention at Space

 

One of the techniques in the Great Completeness is to aim your consciousness at your eyes and aim your eyes at space. This indeed helps because your eye consciousness is so powerful that it can thereby bring some help even when you are meditating. This is not a matter of looking out into the external world, but of looking into intermediate space; even in the New Translation Schools, it is said that there are similarities between internal empty space and external empty space, and between internal enlightenment and external enlightenment. It is not being said that external space is something extremely fantastic; rather, it symbolizes inner space.

 

First of all, straighten up your body and keep your mind from being distracted to anything else. Aim your consciousness at your eyes, and aim your eyes at space. Do not allow the factor of conceptual apprehension to pollute your mind at all; vividly set yourself in the entity of essential purity, of luminosity, of innermost awareness.

 

Identifying Innermost Awareness

 

Because such a view means identifying innermost awareness in your own experience, you need to remain one-pointedly within it. Except for identifying a nature that integrally exists in you, there is nothing to newly delineate outside of yourself. Since you are to identify, to manifest in experience, and then stay with the reality of this innermost awareness that integrally exists within you yourself, the author of the poem, Patrul Rinpoche, says, “Identify innermost awareness of the truth body. Its entity is identified within yourself—the first essential.” This nature has existed in yourself beginninglessly without having to be newly set up; you are identifying what is within yourself now.

 

Introduction to the view is not at all easy. An experienced lama and a faithful, keen student are needed. Great Completeness teachings say that you cannot become enlightened through a fabricated mind; rather, innermost awareness is to be identified, whereupon all phenomena are to be understood as the sport of that mind. You need to induce continuous one-pointed ascertainment in this. With such practice, it is not necessary to repeat mantras, recite texts, and so forth, because you have something greater. These other practices are fabricated—they require exertion—whereas when you identify innermost awareness and sustain practice within that, it is a spontaneous practice without exertion. Practices requiring exertion are done by the mind, but spontaneous practices without exertion are done by innermost awareness.

 

To do this, it is not sufficient merely to read books; you need the full preparatory practice of the Old Translation School and, in addition, you need the special teachings of a qualified Old Translation School master, as well as his or her blessings. Also, the student must also have accumulated great merit. The great Old Translation School master Jigme Lingpa himself spent three years and three phases of the moon in retreat with tremendous effort after which the sphere of innermost awareness manifested; it did not come easily. Dodrubchen similarly worked very hard; throughout his writings he emphasizes that someone engaging in this spontaneous practice without exertion must work hard at all the preparatory practices, be introduced to innermost awareness by a lama with actual experience, and meditate on it one-pointedly within total renunciation of this life. He says that through this the sphere of innermost awareness can be identified, not otherwise.

 

...

 

The Two Truths The clear light nature, basic and luminous, is the final root of all minds—forever indestructible, immutable like a diamond. In Buddhism, this aspect of the mind is considered permanent in the sense that its continuum is uninterrupted—it has always existed and will go on forever and is therefore not something newly started by causes and conditions.

 

Pure from the start and endowed with a spontaneous nature, this diamond mind is the basis of all spiritual development. Even while generating a great many good and bad conceptions, such as desire, hatred, and bewilderment, the diamond mind itself is free from the corruptions of these defilements, like sky that exists throughout clouds.

 

Water may be extremely dirty, yet its nature remains clear. Similarly, no matter what afflictive emotions are generated as the artifice of this diamond mind, and no matter how powerful they are, innermost awareness itself remains unaffected by defilement; it is good without beginning or end.

 

Wonderful spiritual qualities, such as unbounded love and compassion, are all present in basic form in this diamond mind; their manifestation is prevented only by certain temporary conditions. In a sense, we are enlightened from the very beginning, endowed with a completely good basic mind.

 

In the Old Translation School tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, the diamond mind is posited as the ultimate truth. This ultimate truth is not posited from the viewpoint of being an object found by a consciousness realizing emptiness, as in the Middle Way School; rather, it is innermost awareness, the clear light having no beginning and no end, the basis of all the phenomena of cyclic existence and of nirvana. Being beyond all adventitious phenomena, it is called the ultimate truth. The sport, manifestations, effervescence, or coarse forms of it are conventional truths.

 

Even in the New Translation Schools, the fundamental mind also serves as the basis of all the phenomena of cyclic existence and nirvana and is posited as the ultimate truth, the real nature of phenomena. It is also sometimes called the “clear light” and “uncompounded.” In the Old Translation School, it is called the “diamond mind”; this is not the mind that is contrasted with innermost awareness in the division into innermost awareness (rig pa) and mind (sems), but innermost awareness itself, the profound factor of mere luminosity and knowing , the final root of all minds—forever indestructible, immutable, and of an unbreakable continuum like a diamond.

 

Just as the New Translation Schools speak of a beginningless and endless fundamental innate mind of clear light, the Old Translation School speaks of a diamond mind that has no beginning or end and proceeds without interruption through the fruitional stage of buddhahood. It is considered “permanent” in the sense of abiding forever. It is permanent in that its continuum is not interrupted—this being analogous to the statement in Maitreya’s Ornament for the Clear Realizations that a buddha’s exalted activities are considered permanent in that they are inexhaustible, meaning that their continuum is never severed. Just as a buddha’s exalted activities are designated as being “permanent,” the clear light also has existed primordially, beginninglessly, without being newly fabricated, continuously abiding, and thus permanently indwelling. The fundamental innate mind of clear light is also uncompounded in that it is not adventitiously and newly produced by causes and conditions.

 

In general, the term “uncompounded” is understood in two different ways: one is that the clear light is not at all put together from causes and conditions, whereas the other is that the clear light is not newly fabricated from causes and conditions but has existed primordially, and hence has a continuum that is permanent. Such terms need to be understood in context. For instance, certain wise scholars have said that whatever exists is necessarily “compounded.” It may look as if these scholars are denying that permanent phenomena exist since they are not compounded, or made, from causes and conditions, but they are actually saying that all phenomena whatsoever, including the permanent, are established in dependence upon being set up by thought; this is the perspective from which they say that all phenomena are compounded.

 

Also, it is said that naturally arisen innermost awareness is beyond consciousness, beyond mind. We need to understand that since production, cessation, the compounded, the uncompounded, and so forth, are all within the fence of mental concepts, naturally arisen innermost awareness has a nature beyond mind and hence outside the scope of what is posited by terminology and conceptuality. This is why innermost awareness is said to be beyond thought and expression.

 

 

[rex]

If the talk of Oneness is side-tracking the thread or simply too off-topic for the Buddhist area, let me know which posts to move to a new area as I think the posts are worth continuing that line of thought.

Just a suggestion, recent debate has vitiated this threads quiet and inspiring smooth flow. Perhaps posts 716-750; 752-754; and 757-788 be moved to the Buddhist discussion area?