Seeing, Recognising & Maintaining One's Enlightening Potential - Split

[manitou]

 

 We need something to break free from the ego's grip and that is the accumulation of merit and the purification of obscurations, in conjunction with devotion and compassion.

 

 

 

 

It seems to me that if one enters the spiritual path with the intent of becoming more spiritual, then it is of ego.  If that is the only reason one enters the path, then most likely the result would be of ego.

 

If one enters a spiritual path because all else has broken down; because they have tried and tasted life and realized that nothing fixes that which is lacking inside, the Oneness that their spirit is looking for - then this is good ground for entering a spiritual path that is not based totally on ego.

 

I'm not sure, when the Rinpoche speaks of attaining merit, of exactly what he speaks.  I think I know, but maybe I don't.  I think it means that the golden mean within us has increased as a result of years of actions with the right intent.  But I could be dead wrong on this, perhaps there is a more specific meaning to this.  Perhaps it is the merit of our own thoughts being more positive rather than more negative, as a result of the discipline of our practice in guiding our thoughts rightly over the years.  I just don't know.

 

But I can speak to ego.  I can't speak to ego within a Buddhist framework, as that wasn't my path.  But from the path of a recovering person, one who had to taste every substance in life and live in the darkest corners of thought and action, only to find that there was nothing there for me but death or insanity - the ego had to break down in a huge way, initially, at first.  It broke down in the sense that I had to admit defeat, and to ask (shudder) "another person" to help me.  I had to ask someone to be my sponsor, to guide me through the steps of recovery, to show me where my thinking was wrong, arrogant, egotistic, judgmental.

 

And then ego never really died, although it took a huge blow.  when it comes your turn to turn back to others following behind you, how easy it is for ego to make a re-appearance in Act 2.  To see myself as the guru, as the savior, as the one with the answers.  To sponsor many others, which was part of the plan - but how much of this is ego?  But luckily for the recovery programs, there is room for this ego; and although it may be there in the sponsors, those following behind still benefit from the well-worn words that have worked time and time again since 1935.

 

And then to turn my back on those rooms, because I felt that my path was with those 'higher up on the spiritual scale'.  And this is borne out by the occasional reading where it speaks to the importance of what types of people we should surround ourselves with, on our journey. To seek the company of those who have things to teach us - and yet, is this not of ego as well?  To make 'ourselves' better, more spiritual?  Ego, ego, ego.

 

I am at a point in my life where I am re-entering those rooms, sharing my time with those just off the streets (and some still on); not a place where I would have thought I would be.  'These rooms' here in Ohio - the people are a lot different here than they are on the coast of California - of Santa Barbara, Ventura, Malibu, Santa Monica - those places I'm used to.  They don't look the same, they don't wear the same clothes, they don't possess the same type of knowledge.

 

And yet, the heart language is the same.  The pain is the same.  The feeling of being a pariah, alone in a crowd of people, is the same.  And it is this conversation that I can participate in within these rooms here in the back streets of this small little broken down steel mill and pottery town in Ohio.  An impoverished place with impoverished people.

 

This seems to be just what my ego needs at the present time.  It is a perfect place to realize in a more inclusive way the Oneness of mankind, regardless of circumstance.  And it is an ego challenge to walk through the doors and sit in a chair I really don't want to be sitting in because I don't know what lurks under the cushions in that dingy room.  And yet, the light shines brightly in there every once in a while.  The wisest words will emit from the mouth of someone who appears most unlikely to say them - Buddha at the gas pump, if you will.  It is a perfect place for growth of compassion and release from obscuration.  And lo and behold, it is from these very circumstances that I am learning at this time.

 

Thank you, Life.

[C T]

You have a knack for expressing yourself in very clear ways, Barbara. 

 

Have you perhaps thought of writing a book or two? I think its a worthwhile pursuit, that is, if you haven't considered it before. 

Edited July 16, 2016 by C T

[C T]

Its quite simple really to know when its 'ego' and when its not. 

 

The space just before a commentary rolls off or mental playback occurs when something is perceived is fully empty of ego. 

 

We are quite capable of operating from or remaining in that space for prolonged periods. Thats how meditation adepts sustain their view, and those who practice with diligence after them get to experience it as a gradual expansion of non-identification and at the same time a gradual increase in non-preferential abiding or equanimous poise takes effect. 

 

Merit can be understood in quite a number of ways where Mahayana Buddhism is concerned. 

The cultivation and accumulation of merit is synonymous with those who aspire to walk the bodhisattva's path.

 

Generally, from this (Mahayana) perspective, we gain merit thru diligent and joyful application of the Buddhist teachings. There are basically 10 key things one can choose to 'give up' as one progresses on the path of merit-making. 

 

The intention to do this can either be profound or mundane, depending on one's habits and propensities - 

Profound means the actions undertaken are for the sake benefitting others only;

Mundane means doing it for the sake of freeing oneself initially, but can yet develop into the profound aspect later.  

 

 

1. In giving up the taking of life, one will accomplish ten ways of being free from vexations
2. In giving up stealing, one will attain ten kinds of dharmas which can protect one's confidence
3. In giving up wrongful conduct, one will attain four kinds of dharmas which are praised by the wise
4. In giving up lying, one will attain the eight dharmas which are praised by the devas
5. In giving up slandering, one will attain five kinds of incorruptible dharmas
6. In giving up harsh language, one will attain the accomplishment of eight kinds of pure actions
7. In giving up frivolous speech, one will attain the accomplishment of the three certainties
8. In giving up lust, one will attain the accomplishment of the five kinds of freedom
9. In giving up hatred, one will attain eight kinds of dharmas of joy of mind
10. In giving up wrong views, one will attain the accomplishment of ten meritorious dharmas

Edited July 16, 2016 by C T

[manitou]

You have a knack for expressing yourself in very clear ways, Barbara. 

 

Have you perhaps thought of writing a book or two? I think its a worthwhile pursuit, that is, if you haven't considered it before. 

 

 

 

How strange that you would say this today.  Just today in a meeting someone told me that he wished I would write a book.  I've written two, but they were police novels, unpublished.  Maybe I will consider just expanding on my journey.

Edited July 16, 2016 by manitou

[manitou]

 

 

1. In giving up the taking of life, one will accomplish ten ways of being free from vexations
2. In giving up stealing, one will attain ten kinds of dharmas which can protect one's confidence
3. In giving up wrongful conduct, one will attain four kinds of dharmas which are praised by the wise
4. In giving up lying, one will attain the eight dharmas which are praised by the devas
5. In giving up slandering, one will attain five kinds of incorruptible dharmas
6. In giving up harsh language, one will attain the accomplishment of eight kinds of pure actions
7. In giving up frivolous speech, one will attain the accomplishment of the three certainties
8. In giving up lust, one will attain the accomplishment of the five kinds of freedom
9. In giving up hatred, one will attain eight kinds of dharmas of joy of mind
10. In giving up wrong views, one will attain the accomplishment of ten meritorious dharmas

 

 

I think this is one of the most succinct and spectacular things I've ever read -

[Jeff]

Its quite simple really to know when its 'ego' and when its not. 

 

The space just before a commentary rolls off or mental playback occurs when something is perceived is fully empty of ego.

...

 

Hi CT,

 

That space before a commentary rolls off (or between two thoughts) is not necessarily fully empty of ego. It is only empty of consciously percieved aspects of ego, and deep subconscious aspects of ego often continue to exist shaping ones actions and responses. This is often the case with many in seclusion. They dig themselves a nice deep and quiet hole in mind hanging at a mountain top, but give them the normal stresses of work, marriage, children (and even traffic ) and the interaction quickly shows those previously not noticed aspects of ego.

 

When mediation is percieved as a "state" that one practices, that itself shows that there is perceived difference between meditation and normal daily life. That separation is essentially aspects of ego. Rather than quiet mind, I would argue that mediation being the same as normal daily life is a better description regarding beginning to move beyond ego.

 

Best,

Jeff

[manitou]

Interesting point, Jeff.  I'm currently reading a Krishnamurti book which talks about this exactly - observations and dissertations on trying to maintained an enlightened mindset given the stresses of life within society and all the daily activities.

 

It's an eye opening experience to periodically stop and check what one has been thinking about.  Sometimes I'll catch myself having indulged in judgmental thought, or thought of my being superior or inferior to another - basically buying into 'the story', the links from one memory to the other.  And how un-conducive that is to maintaining an enlightened state of mind, free of baggage, fear, judgment, opinion, comparisons.

 

It reinforces just how much of a choice we have as to what we create for ourselves.  How our thought produces the events and coincidences of our lives, our karma, what goes around comes around.  Perhaps the best reason for looking back from an event is to trace our mindset backwards - to see how we initially generated the process by mental means.

[C T]

Hi CT,

 

That space before a commentary rolls off (or between two thoughts) is not necessarily fully empty of ego. It is only empty of consciously percieved aspects of ego, and deep subconscious aspects of ego often continue to exist shaping ones actions and responses. This is often the case with many in seclusion. They dig themselves a nice deep and quiet hole in mind hanging at a mountain top, but give them the normal stresses of work, marriage, children (and even traffic ) and the interaction quickly shows those previously not noticed aspects of ego.

 

When mediation is percieved as a "state" that one practices, that itself shows that there is perceived difference between meditation and normal daily life. That separation is essentially aspects of ego. Rather than quiet mind, I would argue that mediation being the same as normal daily life is a better description regarding beginning to move beyond ego.

 

Best,

Jeff

Its not between 2 thoughts, Jeff. 

[Jeff]

Its not between 2 thoughts, Jeff.

 

The between two thoughts part was an extension (in parenthesis) and not really my point above. Also, as I think my post states, I am specifically saying that it is not between two thoughts or just the "quiet" that is the empty of ego.

 

Best,

Jeff

[C T]

The between two thoughts part was an extension (in parenthesis) and not really my point above. Also, as I think my post states, I am specifically saying that it is not between two thoughts or just the "quiet" that is the empty of ego.

 

Best,

Jeff

Its not a quietness either. 

[Jeff]

Its not a quietness either.

 

Yes, which is also what I said in the post you replied to. My point was that it is also not simply the space before the commentary rolls off for the reasons described in my original post.

[C T]

Yes, which is also what I said in the post you replied to. My point was that it is also not simply the space before the commentary rolls off for the reasons described in my original post.

Where is ego prior to the onset of identification and internal dialogue? 

[manitou]

 

 

The space just before a commentary rolls off or mental playback occurs when something is perceived is fully empty of ego. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is it this?  The other night when I was climbing into bed I turned off the lights and at that moment a car went by slowly on the highway.  Reflected on my venetian blinds was the shadow of the tree out front, but moving slowly and changing shape mysteriously, almost dancing and expanding.  I was mesmerized to mental and verbal silence.

 

I had no thoughts, merely an astounding moment of awe as I watched the play.  Not even 'how beautiful' went through my mind.

 

As I look back, it was sheer joy to watch it.

Edited July 16, 2016 by manitou

[C T]

Is it this?  The other night when I was climbing into bed I turned off the lights and at that moment a car went by slowly on the highway.  Reflected on my venetian blinds was the shadow of the tree out front, but moving slowly and changing shape mysteriously, almost dancing and expanding.  I was mesmerized to mental and verbal silence.

 

I had no thoughts, merely an astounding moment of awe as I watched the play.  Not even 'how beautiful' went through my mind.

 

As I look back, it was sheer joy to watch it.

Thats a neat example, Manitou. 

 

Such moments are never not available. It can be present under all conditions. 

 

The thing is that most of us are not able to sustain this subtle awareness without some form of commentary or identification seeping in. Mindfulness gives us the clarity to notice these moments of subtle identification, and  Meditation is the way of practice to allow such moments to be increasingly recognised and maintained in a pervasive and equanimous state of being. 

[Jeff]

Where is ego prior to the onset of identification and internal dialogue?

 

As I stated in my original post, there are both conscious (internal dialogue) and subconscious ( not yet consciously hearible) aspects of ego. Ego stuff can still be flowing (just not noticed) when the dialogue is not active. The conscious internal dialogue is only the visible tip of the iceberg.

[C T]

As I stated in my original post, there are both conscious (internal dialogue) and subconscious ( not yet consciously hearible) aspects of ego. Ego stuff can still be flowing (just not noticed) when the dialogue is not active. The conscious internal dialogue is only the visible tip of the iceberg.

Thats why the practice of resting in equanimous poise is vital - to counter that flow of unconscious ego stuff. 

 

Dedicated meditators who have developed a solid practice dont succumb to such mundane flows.

[Jeff]

Thats why the practice of resting in equanimous poise is vital - to counter that flow of unconscious ego stuff. 

 

Dedicated meditators who have developed a solid practice dont succumb to such mundane flows.

Again, as stated in my original post, dedicated mediators percieve separate states (of mind) and hence are often unaware of the subconscious components which are the ego aspects themselves that cause the perceived belief that there are different states between meditation and normal daily life in the first place.

 

The "belief" that one is meditating itself is a sign of the ego in place.

[manitou]

Here's a slant, coming in from a slightly different direction.

 

 

Questioner:  I mean there is no answer in the catalogue.

 

KRISHNAMURTI:  That is all.  Your catalogue has no answer, and therefore you want to find another catalogue that has an answer.

 

Questioner:  You keep on trying to find a way.

 

KRISHNAMURTI:  Then you are back in the trap.  Sirs, we have said:  'I do not know'.  Our minds are confused, and out of that confusion we seek the priests, the psychologists, the politicians.  The confusion creates more confusion.  Why don't I say:  'All right, I am confused.  I will not act.'  Of course I will go to the office, continue with everyday activities, but over my psychological confusion I will not do anything, because I see that if I do anything it will create more confusion.  Therefore, psychologically, I will not move at all.  Any movement leads to the trap.  So can you psychologically do nothing about the trap?

   Please listen carefully.  If you do nothing about the trap you are free of it.  It is only the incessant activity of doing something about the trap that keeps you in the trap.  When you see that is so, you will stop, won't you?  You will cease all activity.  And what does that mean?  It means that you are willing psychologically to die.  So when you do not know, and you really mean it, you are out of the trap, because the past has come to an end.  It is when you continually say 'I am looking, I am asking, I must know,' that the past keeps on repeating itself.

 

Questioner:  But when you know nothing at all...

 

KRISHNAMURTI:  Then you have yourself.

 

Questioner:  But that is so little.

 

KRISHNAMURTI:  That is not so little.  It is what has been for two million years.  It is the most tremendously complex thing, and you have to learn about it.  Either you can learn about it instantly, or it can carry on for another two million years.  But let us take only fifty years.  In that we have accumulated an immense amount:  there have been two dreadful wars - the butchery, the brutality, the quarrels, the separations, the insults.  It is all there.  That is the trap.  We are the trap, and so, is it possible to be out of it immediately?

 

Questioner:  In a moment?

 

KRISHNAMURTI:  Of course it must be in a moment.  And if you say you cannot, then it is finished.  You have no problem.  If you say, 'It is possible,' that has no meaning either.  But if you say, 'I really don't know what to do,' without despair, without bitterness, without anger, then in that state there is no movement at all -- then the door opens.

 

(From Bulletin 18, 1973)

Edited July 16, 2016 by manitou

[blue eyed snake]

if you say, 'I really don't know what to do,' without despair, without bitterness, without anger, then in that state there is no movement at all -- then the door opens.

 

 

[C T]

Again, as stated in my original post, dedicated mediators percieve separate states (of mind) and hence are often unaware of the subconscious components which are the ego aspects themselves that cause the perceived belief that there are different states between meditation and normal daily life in the first place.

 

The "belief" that one is meditating itself is a sign of the ego in place.

What makes you think there's belief involved in meditation? Its coming off like a rather novicey remark im sorry to say. 

 

Also, its not clear what you mean when you said that dedicated meditators perceive separate states of mind and therefore become unaware of subconscious components of their pysco-physical being. This subject is very vast and for you to attempt to dismiss its scope by attempting to neatly put all meditators in one corner by stating the above seems presumptuous. 

[dawei]

He makes the statement "every moment you spend in a state of openness is cumulative and supports your ability to be in the flow."

 

 

The fact that it's cumulative is a source of comfort to me.  I may not be able to sustain the feeling of warmth for long periods of time, but on the other hand it's nice to know that those intermittent periods of warmth are not lost once experienced.  They are stored, if the Rinpoche is correct, within our bodies, and this infers that the store of warmth is more readily available 'in the future'.  As all future is actually Now, this makes sense to me.  It's not really linear at all, our brains are just set up to think it is.  Joy is here now, and it's our choice to uncover it or not.

 

It's all just a story we tell ourselves.

 

I would agree that we perceive it as 'accumulating' but only because we're perceiving a time-base and have not reached the 'future' yet... we see ourselves moving forward to the future.  The accumulation is like chipping away at stuff which binds us and as it is chipped away, it can continue to chip at new areas. 

 

Another issue is what I think Jeff alludes to and that is the subconscious aspect.  We can perceive something as empty but it is only locally empty on the perceived level.   There may be a lot going on in the subconscious including the ego.   Until we can know the subconscious perception, we're always working on the more manifest half of our existence.

[C T]

I would agree that we perceive it as 'accumulating' but only because we're perceiving a time-base and have not reached the 'future' yet... we see ourselves moving forward to the future.  The accumulation is like chipping away at stuff which binds us and as it is chipped away, it can continue to chip at new areas. 

 

Another issue is what I think Jeff alludes to and that is the subconscious aspect.  We can perceive something as empty but it is only locally empty on the perceived level.   There may be a lot going on in the subconscious including the ego.   Until we can know the subconscious perception, we're always working on the more manifest half of our existence.

Sorry but i sincerely don't share Jeff's ideals in this regard. 

 

What does 'a lot going on in the subconscious' mean exactly? Why is it even a necessity for there to be a lot going on?

One simply focus on a chosen practice that best suits one's make-up and keep doing it diligently for however long it takes. Thats all that is required. No need to indulge in any suppositions, assumptions, projections, and silly identifications. 

 

Its so simple: Just recognise the base as empty. And continue recognising this. That is all thats needed. 

[Jeff]

What makes you think there's belief involved in meditation? Its coming off like a rather novicey remark im sorry to say. 

 

Also, its not clear what you mean when you said that dedicated meditators perceive separate states of mind and therefore become unaware of subconscious components of their pysco-physical being. This subject is very vast and for you to attempt to dismiss its scope by attempting to neatly put all meditators in one corner by stating the above seems presumptuous.

 

Ok, with responses like that, it seems that you are not actually interested in any discourse...

 

Best wishes you and your thread.

[Jeff]

Sorry but i sincerely don't share Jeff's ideals in this regard. 

 

What does 'a lot going on in the subconscious' mean exactly? Why is it even a necessity for there to be a lot going on?

One simply focus on a chosen practice that best suits one's make-up and keep doing it diligently for however long it takes. Thats all that is required. No need to indulge in any suppositions, assumptions, projections, and silly identifications. 

 

Its so simple: Just recognise the base as empty. And continue recognising this. That is all thats needed.

 

Since you don't seem to like my way of describing it, maybe consider these words on the point of focusing on just the base as empty...

 

"the pratyekabuddhas dwell in the state of fixating on the empty mind-essence instead of understanding the correct meaning. Tsogyal, as long as you are not free from the beliefs of the lower philosophical schools you will not perceive the true meaning. The danger of conceptualizing the self of phenomena is that by such assertion and fixation you will give rise to disturbing emotions. These will cause you to wander in samsara. That is pointless effort even if you were to exert yourself for aeons. What type of person denounces the self of phenomena? In general all Mahayana followers denounce it. In particular, it would be a bad sign if we who have entered the gate of Secret Mantra fixate on partiality, as the followers of the Middle Way also denounce it."

 

- Dakini Teachings: Padmasambhava’s Oral Instructions to Lady Tsogyal.

 

The "disturbing emotions" that you give rise to are all that subconscious stuff.

[dawei]

Sorry but i sincerely don't share Jeff's ideals in this regard. 

 

What does 'a lot going on in the subconscious' mean exactly? Why is it even a necessity for there to be a lot going on?

One simply focus on a chosen practice that best suits one's make-up and keep doing it diligently for however long it takes. Thats all that is required. No need to indulge in any suppositions, assumptions, projections, and silly identifications. 

 

Its so simple: Just recognise the base as empty. And continue recognising this. That is all thats needed. 

 

I don't really disagree with the basic point.  Folks should focus on their path and whether an understanding of the subconscious is a part of that or not is simply their path to follow.

 

As I was commenting to Manitou, I wanted to speak against the idea of linearity and that is just focusing on one side of two; two which only appear to be separate but are not really.  As her and I have discussed some fondness with the deity Gaia, I wanted to share such thoughts with her as I suspect her path seems to understand there is a subconscious side and role which influences our perceptions, like 'linear' and 'future'.