Hillary and Trump

[Karl]

A Capitalist system is moral? Nonsensical.

Yes, next. A peaceful voluntary exchange of goods and services between people, without coercive interference couldn't exactly be anything else.

[CloudHands]

edit : enough 

Edited September 8, 2016 by CloudHands

[zerostao]

 back to hillary and trump

or hillary anyways, the same hillary that claimed she didnt know a "C" denoted classified

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/940e14b8-f3b3-3cae-ad9d-3eaa1f356540/ss_julian-assange%3A-%26%2339%3Bwe-have.html

Edited September 8, 2016 by zerostao

[joeblast]

"I decided it would be fun to cross-check what their donors thought they did when they donated to the Clinton Foundation, and that’s when I got really irritated,” he said. “There are massive discrepancies between what some of the major donors say they gave to the Clinton Foundation to do, and what the Clinton Foundation said what they got from the donors and what they did with it."

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-09-07/clinton-foundation-charity-fraud-epic-proportions-analyst-charges-stunning-takedown

 

His allegation was simple: “this is a charity fraud.”

[blackstar212]

Capitalism is the only moral system. It's as simple as that. However, what we currently have is not capitalism, it is corporatism, or fascist economics, or state control of trade, but it certainly isn't capitalism. These days we have to call it laissez faire capitalism in order to try and distinguish the continued encroachment and bending of the concept by the state. Obama talks about the 'free market' but there isn't one, there hasn't ever been one, the closest was the USA during the 19th century which resulted in a wealth explosion that created a superstate in less than 100 years.

YIKES!!!

 

Unfortunately USSR and North Korea prove this incorrect. State capitalism is still capitalism.

 

I think it time to try out another method.

[zerostao]

Capitalism is the only moral system. It's as simple as that. However, what we currently have is not capitalism, it is corporatism, or fascist economics, or state control of trade, but it certainly isn't capitalism. These days we have to call it laissez faire capitalism in order to try and distinguish the continued encroachment and bending of the concept by the state. Obama talks about the 'free market' but there isn't one, there hasn't ever been one, the closest was the USA during the 19th century which resulted in a wealth explosion that created a superstate in less than 100 years.

 

 

Yes, next. A peaceful voluntary exchange of goods and services between people, without coercive interference couldn't exactly be anything else.

if your thesis is that a peaceful voluntary exchange of goods and services without coercive interference was what the amercian economy was in the 19th century? that gets tossed out at first glance. no need to continue this debate.

[Karl]

YIKES!!!Unfortunately USSR and North Korea prove this incorrect. State capitalism is still capitalism.I think it time to try out another method.

That's why I said lassez faire capitalism. It shouldn't need to be said, but it appears people don't know real,capitalism.

[Karl]

if your thesis is that a peaceful voluntary exchange of goods and services without coercive interference was what the amercian economy was in the 19th century? that gets tossed out at first glance. no need to continue this debate.

We haven't yet had fully laissez faire capitalism under one law. The 19th century was as close as we came and even then it created a magnificent increase in wealth despite its incompleteness.

 

However, it is not good enough to simply proclaim a system as the right one, we have to know exactly why it is the right one.

[ralis]

That's why I said lassez faire capitalism. It shouldn't need to be said, but it appears people don't know real,capitalism.

 

That is just an illusion.

[zerostao]

We haven't yet had fully laissez faire capitalism under one law. The 19th century was as close as we came and even then it created a magnificent increase in wealth despite its incompleteness.

 

Don't leave out ruthless destruction combined with genocide and slavery. oh, we had the most violent time in our history then too when we turned on each other in civil war

 

However, it is not good enough to simply proclaim a system as the right one, we have to know exactly why it is the right one.

 

If we have never had it, (altho i disagree with that as well but for sake of following your line of argument here) how would we know it is the best? if we havnt experienced it, wouldnt that just be another random pipe dream?

Edited September 8, 2016 by zerostao

[blackstar212]

That's why I said lassez faire capitalism. It shouldn't need to be said, but it appears people don't know real,capitalism.

Real capitalism does not exist. It is a unicorn in your mind. There is state and corporate capitalism which is where people will go while in this stage of their evolution. Once humans become more evolved they will understand and go with a compassionate based system.

[Karl]

That is just an illusion.

Only if you want it to be, for me it is very real. I trade my baskets for your apples. We decide a fair exchange that suits us both. I get the apples I need and you get the baskets you prefer over all those apples. We don't butt head. I don't attempt to give you substandard baskets, or try to steal your apples. You reciprocate. We don't fight or steal, we just trade.

 

I don't know why anyone thinks this stuff is complex. The only requirement is an arbiter, someone we both trust if the trade goes sour, or we start resorting to underhand tactics. Instead of retailiating we need an objective law to decide justice in case of a dispute.

[Karl]

 

We haven't yet had fully laissez faire capitalism under one law. The 19th century was as close as we came and even then it created a magnificent increase in wealth despite its incompleteness.

 

Don't leave out ruthless destruction combined with genocide and slavery. oh, we had the most violent time in our history then too when we turned on each other in civil war

 

However, it is not good enough to simply proclaim a system as the right one, we have to know exactly why it is the right one.

 

If we have never had it, (altho i disagree with that as well but for sake of following your line of argument here) how would we know it is the best? if we havnt experienced it, wouldnt that just be another random pipe dream?

 

No, it wouldn't be a random pipe dream, it's common sense. It's simple to put the philosophy behind it, but for most people, well, they get it. Few of us like violence, we get no pleasure from theft or cheating.

 

What you had was in the past. There will always be bad actors that's why we need laws and justice. We have to grow forward. We make mistakes, it's human, but we learn, we adapt, we learn ,we integrate an move on.

 

Your country and mine eventually concluded slavery wasn't moral. Objectivism would have confirmed that truth even before there was slavery. Don't hurt people or steal their stuff.

[joeblast]

Real capitalism does not exist. It is a unicorn in your mind. There is state and corporate capitalism which is where people will go while in this stage of their evolution. Once humans become more evolved they will understand and go with a compassionate based system.

sorry homes, you cant describe a term by deviations and then attempt to include those deviations in the definition of the term.

 

"corporate capitalism" where corporations buy off the government via lobbying....how's that capitalism?  that is the roots of fascism.

 

"state capitalism" is not capitalism either.

 

 

both of these are somewhat market based but let large players alter the dynamic in significant ways that undermine the entire "capitalism" that purportedly underlies them.  people seem to be conflating a "market" with "capitalism."

Edited September 8, 2016 by joeblast

[Karl]

It's quite funny that people are unable to grasp a simple moral framework without complexity.

 

Tonight I go to a pizza restaurant and I hand over my cash for a delicious fresh pizza made with organic ingredients. The guy behind the counter is proud of his produce and wants to please me so that I come back and buy more pizza, or tell my friends about the produce. I want to seen as a good actor and hand over the asking price because I want to come back and enjoy another pizza at some time and I don't want to seen as the kind of person who steals things.

 

Neither of us set too with guns or fists during the negotiation. No one forces me to pay, nor forces the proprietor to make a delicious pizza, but, amazingly ( sarcasm) we conclude the trade. Later I tell the proprietor how good his pizza was- he is pleased, and asks if I will return-which I have. There are no police, no state, no laws, no disputes. It's just me handing over something I produced in the form of cash, for something I prefer to the cash.

 

In a nutshell that's all life is about. We produce and consume. The result is an increase in wealth. There is no need for taxation, welfare, or anything else. It's only when someone wants to cheat that we need an arbiter and someone who will crack heads and get justice.

[blackstar212]

sorry homes, you cant describe a term by deviations and then attempt to include those deviations in the definition of the term.

 

"corporate capitalism" where corporations buy off the government via lobbying....how's that capitalism?  that is the roots of fascism.

 

"state capitalism" is not capitalism either.

 

 

both of these are somewhat market based but let large players alter the dynamic in significant ways that undermine the entire "capitalism" that purportedly underlies them.  people seem to be conflating a "market" with "capitalism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_capitalism

 

These are real unlike the unicorn you are talking about.

[Karl]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalismhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_capitalismThese are real unlike the unicorn you are talking about.

It is no unicorn. There is one form of capitalism and that's capitalism. Anything else is the use of force to extract production and that immoral, evil and the preserve of criminals who want to consume without producing.

 

The point of a government and laws is to prevent this kind of immoral activity and not to promote it. If the government is unable to perform the action of objective arbiter and judge, then we are better off without a Government. It's like a car manufacturer that steals cars to sell to other people, we don't need that kind of manufacturer.

[zerostao]

It is no unicorn. There is one form of capitalism and that's capitalism. Anything else is the use of force to extract production and that immoral, evil and the preserve of criminals who want to consume without producing.

 

The point of a government and laws is to prevent this kind of immoral activity and not to promote it. If the government is unable to perform the action of objective arbiter and judge, then we are better off without a Government. It's like a car manufacturer that steals cars to sell to other people, we don't need that kind of manufacturer.

if it is such a simple system, easily understood by children, then why has it never took hold anywhere?

ask yourself that.

i think your dna is deeply ingrained with the puritan work ethic ideal, which is fine.

the thing is tho, that not everyone is wired up like that.

not every primitive society evolved in the same way.

you are supposing that all the ills and bad actors will vanish in the face of your randian utopia's laws and justice.

if it never happened before, why would it happen anytime?

in some small enclaves, i suggest your ideology does exist.

but having it spread worldwide or even in a single nation hasnt happened or will it.

it is good to be a dreamer and see a good vision.

yet, you have brought up reason and reality into your argument,

and you appear to be not able to reasonably grasp how things are reality wise.

how will you handle the feudalist corporatist who are in control now?

 

when the wall fell and the iron curtain vanished, a lot of those people were starry eyed with dreams

of a better life, maybe acquire some wealth, the ones who ventured west to where they were convinced utopia was to be found, how has that worked out for the overwhelming majority of them?

 

do not bring up into your argument and mention of folks just wanting " free stuff"

i agree that the feudalist corporatist wants "free stuff" and everything else that they can gobble up.

i dismissed that idea of yours from the start. we are most likely in the same generation and except for a very small % i have never seen folks who expected or even desired "free stuff" ever

 

what i am saying is that your view is too narrowly confined.

simple is good, i am simple

but having a narrow view is same as wearing blinders.

you have to look at the entire picture

an interdisciplinary approach is more evolved than

just expecting one discipline to remedy all 

even if that discipline is economics. 

i think you make great assumptions and some of those will prove false if tested.

the same reason my ideal of anarchy cannot come into true fruition is the same as why

a randian utopia will not either.

 

aristotle suggested ways to live a flourishing life.

it works for some and not for all.

Edited September 8, 2016 by zerostao

[Karl]

if it is such a simple system, easily understood by children, then why has it never took hold anywhere?

ask yourself that.

i think your dna is deeply ingrained with the puritan work ethic ideal, which is fine.

the thing is tho, that not everyone is wired up like that.

not every primitive society evolved in the same way.

you are supposing that all the ills and bad actors will vanish in the face of your randian utopia's laws and justice.

if it never happened before, why would it happen anytime?

in some small enclaves, i suggest your ideology does exist.

but having it spread worldwide or even in a single nation hasnt happened or will it.

it is good to be a dreamer and see a good vision.

yet, you have brought up reason and reality into your argument,

and you appear to be not able to reasonably grasp how things are reality wise.

how will you handle the feudalist corporatist who are in control now?

 

when the wall fell and the iron curtain vanished, a lot of those people were starry eyed with dreams

of a better life, maybe acquire some wealth, the ones who ventured west to where they were convinced utopia was to be found, how has that worked out for the overwhelming majority of them?

 

do not bring up into your argument and mention of folks just wanting " free stuff"

i agree that the feudalist corporatist wants "free stuff" and everything else that can gobble up.

i dismissed that idea of your from the start. we are most likely in the same generation and except for a very small % i have never seen folks who expected or even desired "free stuff" ever

 

what i am saying is that your view is too narrowly confined.

simple is good, i am simple

but having a narrow view is same as wearing blinders.

you have to look at the entire picture

an interdisciplinary approach is more evolved than

just expecting one discipline to remedy all 

even if that discipline is economics

 

Yes its narrowly confined to reality.

[ralis]

Yes its narrowly confined to reality.

So there is only one reality?

[Marblehead]

So there is only one reality?

Yes, the one with all good guys.

[zerostao]

Yes its narrowly confined to reality.

 

 

So there is only one reality?

 

 

Yes, the one with all good guys.

 

i am starting to be reminded of Pol Pot in cambodia . the khmer rouge were convinced that a narrow reality existed and that the entire country should have a single focus of agriculture. one of the most brutal anti humanitarian totalitarian regimes lasted 3 decades or so before that utopia failed.

karl, you are not a totalitarian are you?

how do you handle the to be displaced govt workers that MH mentioned?

will there be re-education camps?

i still think the larger issue is dealing with the feudalist corporatists,

i doubt they peacefully give up their stranglehold on us

[Karl]

So there is only one reality?

If there were more than one then it wouldn't be a reality.

[Karl]

i am starting to be reminded of Pol Pot in cambodia . the khmer rouge were convinced that a narrow reality existed and that the entire country should have a single focus of agriculture. one of the most brutal anti humanitarian totalitarian regimes lasted 3 decades or so before that utopia failed.

karl, you are not a totalitarian are you?

how do you handle the to be displaced govt workers that MH mentioned?

will there be re-education camps?

i still think the larger issue is dealing with the feudalist corporatists,

i doubt they peacefully give up their stranglehold on us

That isn't a reality, that's a policy.

Government workers will have to start producing instead of being middle men in the theft of production. You may as well ask what would should become of criminals.

Corporatists rely on the state to provide protection and regulation. Without the state they wither and die. It is not to say all corporations are bad, most woukd simply adapt and get used to more competition. Entrepreneurs adapt to the circumstances. Companies that hold only state contracts will find they have no work.

[zerostao]

That isn't a reality, that's a policy.

Government workers will have to start producing instead of being middle men in the theft of production. You may as well ask what would should become of criminals.

Corporatists rely on the state to provide protection and regulation. Without the state they wither and die. It is not to say all corporations are bad, most woukd simply adapt and get used to more competition. Entrepreneurs adapt to the circumstances. Companies that hold only state contracts will find they have no work.

alright then, i guess it is cleared up (like the dissipated exhaled smoke of my morning bowl--which resembles your randian utopian pipe dream) go ahead and implement it.

i am ready to see this one true reality.

Edited September 8, 2016 by zerostao