Hillary and Trump

[joeblast]

Ballsy people that are willing to challenge a corrupt and rotten establishment have some measure of hero in them, yes

[ralis]

Ballsy people that are willing to challenge a corrupt and rotten establishment have some measure of hero in them, yes

 

Ballsy? Hardly! The editing to purvey a certain point is blatantly obvious and besides he paid 100k to an injured part and so forth. I am not fooled by such bullshit!

[joeblast]

no, you're fooled by much sillier and less artful bullshit

[Wells]

.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Wells

[Wells]

.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Wells

[Trunk]

Beyond Hillary / Trump (and could be the basis of a different - perhaps more constructive - thread, especially once we're out of the election season heat) and beyond the current mess at the higher levels of political power ...

 

I wonder what social & political philosophers people admire?

I find Wendell Berry to be very deep, considered, cogent.  His non-fiction essays, for instance "What are People For?" and "Citizenship Papers".

Also I like Noam Chomsky... though I've not read his books, I like hearing him speak.

 

... and, also (probably beyond this topic), "what can we, as individuals, do that is socially / politically positive?"

Edited November 8, 2016 by Trunk

[Karl]

Beyond Hillary / Trump (and could be the basis of a different - perhaps more constructive - thread, especially once we're out of the election season heat) and beyond the current mess at the higher levels of political power ...

 

I wonder what social & political philosophers people admire?

I find Wendell Berry to be very deep, considered, cogent. His non-fiction essays, for instance "What are People For?" and "Citizenship Papers".

Also I like Noam Chomsky... though I've not read his books, I like hearing him speak.

 

... and, also (probably beyond this topic), "what can we, as individuals, do that is socially / politically positive?"

Act morally. Don't initiate violence against people who are not an existential threat, don't lie about people, don't steal from people, don't ask others to steal on your behalf, don't demand values you haven't earned, nor demand values for other people who haven't earned them. Don't be your brothers keeper, nor expect him to be yours.

[joeblast]

... and, also (probably beyond this topic), "what can we, as individuals, do that is socially / politically positive?"

politically positive, demand honesty and integrity from politicians, and launch the book at them from a battleship cannon when they breach it.

 

bottom to top, cronies and all.

 

that includes being in possession of materials beyond your level of classification...

that includes putting a copy on your private server in a foreign country and letting large foreign donors access it..

 

that includes the FBI being honest about the 2 bullet holes in Vince Foster's neck

 

that includes being honest about the unconstitutionality of the NSA's datacenter in utah, its 4th amendment violations in sweeping up everyone's data wholesale,  you can include the stingray technologies in this.

 

 

is it too much to ask that the federal government follow the constitution, and refrain from activities that would give the sense of being beyond its bounds....much less the myriad activities that are well beyond the constitution's limits.

[ralis]

One thing in regards to Trump selling the idea of a wall is that he is akin to a used car salesman and many bought the idea.

 

To build a wall of that magnitude would cost in the 100's of billions and there is no guarantee that it will keep everyone out. Structurally the problems in building in solid rock and mountainous terrain makes the project exceedingly difficult. Further, I think Trump is really interested in the panopticon concept.

[Brian]

One thing in regards to Trump selling the idea of a wall is that he is akin to a used car salesman and many bought the idea.

 

To build a wall of that magnitude would cost in the 100's of billions and there is no guarantee that it will keep everyone out. Structurally the problems in building in solid rock and mountainous terrain makes the project exceedingly difficult. Further, I think Trump is really interested in the panopticon concept.

The current estimate is less than $5 billion, according to WOLA.

 

BTW, the law requiring a physically secured border was signed in 2006 and more than 600 miles of the Southern border have already been fenced.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Brian

[ralis]

The current estimate is less than $5 billion, according to WOLA.

 

Those estimates are understated and I wonder if a civil engineer came up with that estimate. Are you for a wall?

[Kar3n]

Is there not already a wall from California to New Mexico?

I seem to recall seeing something rather large and long in the distance on several drives through those states.

Do you not make it that far south in your travels?

[Karl]

Good fences mean good neighbours.

[Jonesboy]

Those estimates are understated and I wonder if a civil engineer came up with that estimate. Are you for a wall?

How about a firewall to keep ralis out?

Edited November 8, 2016 by Jonesboy

[ralis]

Is there not already a wall from California to New Mexico?

I seem to recall seeing something rather large and long in the distance on several drives through those states.

Do you not make it that far south in your travels?

 

We drove along the California/Mexico border years ago and border patrol trucks are every quarter of a mile going both ways. I haven't been to the border except down around Tucson in the last couple of years.

 

I live in Santa Fe which is around 270 miles from the border.

[ralis]

Regarding immigrants, many come over the border legally as tourists with a visa and just stay. I talk to people all the time here in New Mexico and know what is going on. I have heard all the stories.

[Brian]

Those estimates are understated and I wonder if a civil engineer came up with that estimate. Are you for a wall?

A wall? Nope. It is unnecessary. A physically secured border? It is a practical requirement for a welfare state as well as a constitutional requirement.

[Brian]

Is there not already a wall from California to New Mexico?

I seem to recall seeing something rather large and long in the distance on several drives through those states.

Do you not make it that far south in your travels?

They've got over 600 miles of pedestrian fencing and vehicle barricades in place so far.

[Brian]

Those estimates are understated and I wonder if a civil engineer came up with that estimate. Are you for a wall?

On what basis do you claim the estimate is understated? Seems to me that your estimate might be two orders of magnitude overstated.

 

<shrug>

 

Or are you suggesting that WOLA is a right-wing fascist Trump-supporting front group?

Edited November 8, 2016 by Brian

[ralis]

A wall? Nope. It is unnecessary. A physically secured border? It is a practical requirement for a welfare state as well as a constitutional requirement.

 

Constitutional requirement?

[Brian]

Constitutional requirement?

Yep, if that's what it takes to ensure the security of the borders of the individual states.

 

EDIT: I suppose we could deploy the military to physically secure every foot of the border but that seems unnecessary, too.

 

EDIT2: The Constitution is really an interesting document, BTW. I think everyone should read it!

 

Edited November 8, 2016 by Brian

[ralis]

On what basis do you claim the estimate is understated? Seems to me that your estimate might be two orders of magnitude overstated.

 

<shrug>

 

Possibly is, but it will never happen anyway. Prevent tunneling and other breaches is what I believe Trump has in mind which increases the cost. Otherwise, it is a waste and Trump's folly.

[ralis]

Yep, if that's what it takes to ensure the security of the borders of the individual states.

 

EDIT: I suppose we could deploy the military to physically secure every foot of the border but that seems unnecessary, too.

 

 

Violation of posse comitatus to let the military operate in the US. If it is up to the states then that complicates the matter. This discussion is moot.

[Brian]

Violation of posse comitatus to let the military operate in the US. If it is up to the states then that complicates the matter. This discussion is moot.

No, actually posse comitatus is in reference to using the military for domestic law enforcement (domestic policies included). This would be to repel foreign invaders, which is precisely in scope for the military.

 

EDIT: Terrible (and expensive) idea, mind you, but it could be considered an alternative to a physical structure.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Brian

[ralis]

No, actually posse comitatus is in reference to using the military for domestic law enforcement. This would be to repel foreign invaders, which is precisely in scope for the military.

 

EDIT: Terrible (and expensive) idea, mind you, but it could be considered an alternative to a physical structure.

 

I have seen some discussion on that during the Bush years and there is controversy in regards to that. Further, repelling civilian invaders with lethal force is an act of war. Women and children would be killed and you would support that?

Edited November 8, 2016 by ralis