Hillary and Trump

[Trunk]

Politifact.com checks truth/lies for each during this campaign season.

 

Interesting... but I'd rather see them do a lie detector test to see how often they knew they were stretching it or lying

 

Just in case anyone missed the numbers above:

 

FALSEHOODS

Hillary                             Trump

 2.6% pants on fire          16.9% pants on fire

10.2% false                      33.9% false

11.7% mostly false           18.8% mostly false

24.5% total % false          69.6% total % false

 

TRUTHS

Hillary                              Trump

19.4% true                          4.8% true

31.6% mostly true             10.9% mostly true

24.5% half true                  14.7% half true

75.5% total % true             30.4% total % true

 

Those are HUGE differences.

 

Another example in an article by the Washington Post re: 2007 when Trump was in a deposition over the course of two days and was caught lying 30 times.

 

Then there are just blatant contradictions, constantly...  He has no policies, only what is convenient to say at the time, made up.  He's just a bullshit artist, a con man, all he does is play peoples' emotions.

 

 

 

~ edit ~

Corrected Trump's half truths%.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Trunk

[Brian]

Just in case anyone missed the numbers above:

 

FALSEHOODS

Hillary Trump

2.6% pants on fire 16.9% pants on fire

10.2% false 33.9% false

11.7% mostly false 18.8% mostly false

24.5% total % false 69.6% total % false

 

TRUTHS

Hillary Trump

19.4% true 4.8% true

31.6% mostly true 10.9% mostly true

24.5% half true 18.8% half true

75.5% total % true 34.5% total % true

 

Those are HUGE differences.

 

Another example in an article by the Washington Post re: 2007 when Trump was in a deposition over the course of two days and was caught lying 30 times.

 

Then there are just blatant contradictions, constantly... He has no policies, only what is convenient to say at the time, made up. He's just a bullshit artist, a con man, all he does is play peoples' emotions.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6Wuht73g1U

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/policies

Just for reference...

Edited November 8, 2016 by Brian

[ralis]

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/policies

Just for reference...

 

 

The border wall is the most insane policy proposal ever. A wall is one thing, but the footing structure below ground would need to be extremely deep to prevent tunneling. Absolute bullshit!!!

 

His bigotry towards Mexicans is no different that what other demagogues have used over thousands of years.

[wilfred]

for context the Tampa Bay Times (PolitiFact) is a tradtionally left leaning publication. there's even a whole site dedicated to disputing much of their 'fact' checking:

 

http://www.politifactbias.com/

 

sorry i couldn't resist

Edited November 8, 2016 by wilfred

[silent thunder]

The idea of voting tomorrow

 

makes me feel like I will need to take a shower on the inside...

 

 

 

[ralis]

[Trunk]

The border wall is the most insane policy proposal ever.

 

John Oliver deconstructs that in detail:

 

 

It just feels good if you are frustrated about immigration and you lack the ability or interest in discerning thought that would be the basis for a realistic, practical plan.  He's purely playing to lower emotions... can anyone say, "demagogue".

Edited November 8, 2016 by Trunk

[Karl]

Might be a lot more than a wall. He maybe indicating some advanced, integrated kind of multiple security-it could even be offensive and be mined.

[ralis]

Might be a lot more than a wall. He maybe indicating some advanced, integrated kind of multiple security-it could even be offensive and be mined.

 

 

Anti-personnel mines are illegal under the ICBL. Further, that is the most ridiculous statement in this thread.

Edited November 8, 2016 by ralis

[Trunk]

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/policies

Just for reference...

Well, just off the top of my head, I know that he wants to:

- abolish the Environmental Protection Agency

- thinks climate change is a hoax invented by the Chinese

- deport millions of mexicans

- either ban Muslims from entering the country or make a strict questionnaire

- ban abortion (overturn Roe vs Wade)

- have more countries have nuclear weapons

- build a wall on the Mexican border

 

I know that he has a bizarre lack of knowledge and sense about how the judicial branch works as illustrated by his attempt to get the judge who is overseeing one of the legal battles against him disqualified because he is of Mexican heritage.

 

 

Again, really:

You might think Hillary has flaws, or is merely a cog in the machine etc., but she is *not* INSANE.  She actually HAS knowledge and experience in both domestic and foreign issues.

 

p.s.

And, come on, the whole "birther" thing????!!!  How can ANYone take any of that as ANYthing but absurd??  It was childish (infantile, more like it), idiotic, racist... and yet, just the sort of b.s. that Trump perpetuates, blames on someone else, doubts the results of, and is "very proud of".  How can anyone take this 4 year old seriously?

 

Edited November 8, 2016 by Trunk

[Golden Dragon Shining]

"You might think Hillary has flaws, or is merely a cog in the machine etc., but she is *not* INSANE.  She actually HAS knowledge and experience in both domestic and foreign issues."

This is satire?

 

[Golden Dragon Shining]

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Democratic insider & Hill columnist Brent Budowsky on the "fixed game" in DC https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/55311#efmAAGACTAD-AIBAIDALp

~


Arianna Huffington, co-founder of Huffinton Post, prefers covert influence #PodestaEmails
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/53056#efmABtADz

Edited November 8, 2016 by Sionnach

[Golden Dragon Shining]

[Trunk]

 

We are all frustrated with many things in politics, national and international events.  I just think it's naive to think that any one person can come in and "fix everything".  Change is incremental, complex, hard fought and won .. and requires sober clear patient thinking and long term work.

 

While it's emotionally attractive for someone to just come in, rough things up, break through barriers and fix everything: it's far from realistic.  This is real life, not an action movie.

 

[Golden Dragon Shining]

I don't think he is going to fix everything, I am 50/50. HC is devilish though, see the above Syrian Muslim video.

America has no obligation to Mexico or Mexicans.
America has no obligation to Muslims
America has no obligation to China

The American governments obligation is to the American people.

America should withdraw all international military presence. These conflicts were created by the likes of HC.
 

Guatemala–Mexico border

In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweek magazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants. Additionally, Contreras found that at coffee farms in the Mexican state Chiapas, "40,000 Guatemalan field hands endure backbreaking jobs and squalid living conditions to earn roughly [uS]$3.50 a day" and that some farmers "even deduct the cost of room and board from that amount."^[1] The Mexican National Institute of Migration estimated that 400,235 people crossed the border illegally every year and that around 150,000 of them intended to enter the United States.^[2]
 

Gun and drug running

The border with Guatemala is the primary source of military grade weaponry - including anti-tank rockets, hand grenades, plastic explosives, and grenade launchers - used by the Mexican drug cartels. The weapons are typically stolen from Central American government munitions stockpiles.^[3] A 2010 U.S. diplomatic cable disclosed by WikiLeaks states that Mexico does not have sufficient resources to patrol the border with only 125 officers to monitor the entire 577-mile border.^[4] Mexican officials confirm that they do not have sufficient resources as they have been concentrating their efforts on fighting the cartels in the North.<sup>[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala%E2%80%93Mexico_border</sup>

 

Edited November 8, 2016 by Sionnach

[Karl]

I would add the caveat that they should withdraw their military where it is in unnecessary conflict with other nations that do not directly threaten the USA. The problem for the US is its 'war on terror' as no such thing is possible. A war is a specific violent action against a specific enemy threat with the aim of removing that threat. Terror is the action of a nation against its own people. A war on terror is a nation fighting a war against its own policies. Hence the war the American military is fighting is really a war against its own people - which, following the recent election revelations is now very obvious.

[Brian]

The border wall is the most insane policy proposal ever. A wall is one thing, but the footing structure below ground would need to be extremely deep to prevent tunneling. Absolute bullshit!!!

 

His bigotry towards Mexicans is no different that what other demagogues have used over thousands of years.

"He has no policies" equals "I don't like his policies"?

 

Personally, I like neither the man nor most of his policies because he's a so-called Progressive masquerading a conservative.

 

As to "the wall" specifically, it is unnecessary. Rule of law would solve the immigration problem and Border Patrol agents could then handle the security aspect if allowed to do so.

[Brian]

Well, just off the top of my head, I know that he wants to:

- abolish the Environmental Protection Agency

- thinks climate change is a hoax invented by the Chinese

- deport millions of mexicans

- either ban Muslims from entering the country or make a strict questionnaire

- ban abortion (overturn Roe vs Wade)

- have more countries have nuclear weapons

- build a wall on the Mexican border

 

I know that he has a bizarre lack of knowledge and sense about how the judicial branch works as illustrated by his attempt to get the judge who is overseeing one of the legal battles against him disqualified because he is of Mexican heritage.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2zAkqd_P_I

 

Again, really:

You might think Hillary has flaws, or is merely a cog in the machine etc., but she is *not* INSANE. She actually HAS knowledge and experience in both domestic and foreign issues.

 

p.s.

And, come on, the whole "birther" thing????!!! How can ANYone take any of that as ANYthing but absurd?? It was childish (infantile, more like it), idiotic, racist... and yet, just the sort of b.s. that Trump perpetuates, blames on someone else, doubts the results of, and is "very proud of". How can anyone take this 4 year old seriously?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIoGtx6k80k

Well, if you'd rather reiterate what you believe you know off the top of your head than actually read the policies you claim don't exist, that's surely your prerogative.

 

<shrug>

 

Funny thing... Last night, I went to sleep with my hardcore Progressive wife on her laptop next to me watching the festivities in Philly and muttering about how great it is gonna be to elect Hillary. I woke up several times and she was doing research until the wee hours. When I got up this morning, she told me she still believes Trump is going to mouth off to Russia or China and get us nuked but there's no way she can vote for Hillary today.

[Jonesboy]

You are aware that Mexico has proposed building a wall on its southern border as well?

 

How about all the border walls that are going up in Europe?

 

A wall does not make one a racist.

[Trunk]

Well, if you'd rather reiterate what you believe you know off the top of your head than actually read the policies you claim don't exist, that's surely your prerogative.

<shrug>

Admittedly I'm not well read on his policies; I'm going by hearing him speak and...

1. Behaviorly I've already said what I think / observe: as an individual not sane, dangerous on a group level (regardless of policy, left/right, progressive / conservative). Extreme enough to disqualify him by a long shot. Serious "Lord of the Flies" scene on an adult level.

 

edit: A lot of Trump is about "visceral dominance" and it's not rooted in sensibilities (nor a desire to serve others, lol): it's a disorder and there are no limits with him on this. It's reflexive, deep, pathologically dangerous, something he cannot change.

 

2. As to knowledge. Again, when I've seen him speak: he doesn't know what he's talking about and is a shoot-from-the-hip con man, bully, bull shit artist. Doesn't know things and makes it up as he goes along (no experience, out of his depth of knowlegde and out of his area of talent). I would assume that what is written on his website is more orderly than what comes out of his mouth... but what comes out of his mouth, again, disqualifies him by a long shot.

 

Edit: These qualities make him successful financially (if you want to define success very narrowly by money) but very dangerous as a human being, especially when leading large groups. Having him lead a powerful nation is large scale insanity.

 

Aside from Trump / Hillary...

There is a huge cultural split in the US populace. Somehow we've got to develop healthier dialogue as a nation (maybe it won't happen, I don't know) ... We're at a point in history where we can do (and are doing) more damage to each other (all humans, cultures and civilizations) and to the natural world than ever before.

 

Good luck to all of us!

Edited November 8, 2016 by Trunk

[joeblast]

When people are propagandized so easily, its tough to have rational, healthy discourse.

 

We've all been shown the evidence of how the big media is all in collusion, HuffPo, all in collusion

 

but then folks want to say they havent been tricked on some number of things.

 

Well,  we've all been shown data that tells a story of governments bending their populace over so that large corporations can extract their pounds of flesh, whether you're an animal rights activist getting labeled a terrorist for taking pictures of foodimals packed up like sardines in a tin, or a jury member trying to inform your fellow jurors about jury nullification,  time and again the data keeps on telling us the same thing.

 

Usually elections have goldman  sachs canidates on both sides of the ticket.  This one is an outlier.

 

But dont let that money influence YOUR vote, right...

[ralis]

You are aware that Mexico has proposed building a wall on its southern border as well?

 

How about all the border walls that are going up in Europe?

 

A wall does not make one a racist.

 

Walls in Europe are not part of this thread in any way which is off topic. Further, Trump has proven himself a racist towards any number of groups. E.g. the Trump University lawsuit in which he asked the presiding judge to recuse himself because of his Latino heritage. The judge was born in Indiana.

[joeblast]

LOL nice cop out

[ralis]

When people are propagandized so easily, its tough to have rational, healthy discourse.

 

We've all been shown the evidence of how the big media is all in collusion, HuffPo, all in collusion

 

but then folks want to say they havent been tricked on some number of things.

 

Well,  we've all been shown data that tells a story of governments bending their populace over so that large corporations can extract their pounds of flesh, whether you're an animal rights activist getting labeled a terrorist for taking pictures of foodimals packed up like sardines in a tin, or a jury member trying to inform your fellow jurors about jury nullification,  time and again the data keeps on telling us the same thing.

 

Usually elections have goldman  sachs canidates on both sides of the ticket.  This one is an outlier.

 

But dont let that money influence YOUR vote, right...

 

 

I was reading Nineteen Eighty Four long before you were born and I know very well what propaganda is and isn't. For you to see O'Keefe as some kind of hero speaks volumes.

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/38913-2016-us-election/page-118#entry718096

Edited November 8, 2016 by ralis