Truth and Progress

[Siddharthashoka]

Why are we here, no matter what our "morals" are? What is the sense of our "good" wishes or "evil" intentions? What purpose is there in building wonderful buildings and machines? Of course, it seems very obvious from a "normal" point of view. By doing these things, we are making a better world. Nevertheless, everything in this world goes away, no matter what it is. Why? Why are we living in situations in which everything is limited? What is the sense of all of this?

 

I have read many books and I have listened to the lectures of many people in various places on this planet. My studies have included dealing deeply with various forms of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Daoism, Confucianism, Shintoism, so-called myths and fables, Satanism, agnosticism, and atheism.

 

I was a religious devotee for a few years.  Have been a vegetarian. Have mediated for many many hours. Have studied Ancient Greek, Classical Latin, Sanskrit, Hebrew, learned the Arabic script, Hindi, Urdu, Japanese, French, German, Spanish as well as dozens of other languages. Have studied Tai Kwan Do and sat for many hours in yoga positions. Have cleared my mind. Have studied herbal medicine and massage. Why? What has been the use of all of these endeavors?

 

I have spent a few decades doing these activities. I have learned many things. However, I am not sure what is true and what is false in a spiritual sense. I do not know what God is, despite having experienced a White Light situation when I was 18 years old. I sense that I have "progressed" in some ways but I am not really sure what "spiritual progress" is.

 

I am not stating these events for attention but only to express my very strong desire to find out what is my purpose in being alive. After all of my various endeavors, I could tell you stories and discuss various possibilities for months. However, I am not spiritually realized. I seem to have become stuck in a certain place and I am not moving forward. I do not want to travel anyplace new. What I believe that I need at this time is feedback from other people who may be able to help me. Maybe I will be able to help them as well.

 

If you would like to be involved in this, please reply. Thank you.

[Marblehead]

Well, I suppose a first question to you would be:  What do you think being a spiritual person consists of?

[Siddharthashoka]

Given that I have studied various approaches to spirituality, I could give you many examples of what people have defined as spirituality. In some religions, being drunk, taking certain drugs in various ways, open sexuality and ritualized murders are considered to be normal aspects of being spiritual. My situation is that I don't know what actually is spiritual. Given this, I don't know what progression is. Of course, if we accept a certain path or paths, it may tell us what is and what isn't spiritual. However, are these definitions accurate and other definitions inaccurate? How can we know for sure what is and what is not spiritual? This mental state of mind as well as emotional reactions does not make me able to tell you what I believe a spiritual person is. I can tell you what other people have said or written but I am not able to give you an answer from myself that I am certain is true.

[Marblehead]

Given this, I don't know what progression is. Of course, if we accept a certain path or paths, it may tell us what is and what isn't spiritual. However, are these definitions accurate and other definitions inaccurate? How can we know for sure what is and what is not spiritual? This mental state of mind as well as emotional reactions does not make me able to tell you what I believe a spiritual person is. I can tell you what other people have said or written but I am not able to give you an answer from myself that I am certain is true.

 

Good start.  That's step one.  We will set aside the concept of "right and wrong" for the moment.

 

And very true what you said in that we don't know if we are making progress if we have no idea where we are going.

 

So I suppose that the second step would be to define what spirituality means to you.  No concern about what it means to others.

 

For me, my signature block pretty much says it all:  Peace & Contentment.  That means being at peace with my inner self as well as my external environment as well as being content with these conditions.  (This doesn't mean that I am always at peace with either myself or my external environment or that I am always content with all conditions in life.  Life is dynamic; constantly changing.  Oftentimes it changes to conditions that disturb us.  In these cases we have work to do.)

 

But my definition is not good enough for many people.  Most need more than that in their life.

 

And that one word from your thread title:  TRUTH

 

We can lie to others and it doesn't matter all that much.  But if we lie to our self we will never find that feeling of Oneness with Tao (Spirituality).

[smallsteps]

Good start.  That's step one.  We will set aside the concept of "right and wrong" for the moment.

 

And very true what you said in that we don't know if we are making progress if we have no idea where we are going.

 

So I suppose that the second step would be to define what spirituality means to you.  No concern about what it means to others.

 

For me, my signature block pretty much says it all:  Peace & Contentment.  That means being at peace with my inner self as well as my external environment as well as being content with these conditions.  (This doesn't mean that I am always at peace with either myself or my external environment or that I am always content with all conditions in life.  Life is dynamic; constantly changing.  Oftentimes it changes to conditions that disturb us.  In these cases we have work to do.)

 

But my definition is not good enough for many people.  Most need more than that in their life.

 

And that one word from your thread title:  TRUTH

 

We can lie to others and it doesn't matter all that much.  But if we lie to our self we will never find that feeling of Oneness with Tao (Spirituality).

 

I am also finding that without truth there is no spirituality, and I would also add that truth needs reality as a reference point. I mean being truthful with our internal reality and also with external reality (the course of events). We could say then that when we are subjectively denying the external objective reality , we create emotional disturbances within ourselves, and lose peace. Since it is not a very pleasurable experience, we may be tempted to also deny our emotions, thoughts etc. and create a vicious circle.

My view of what spirituality is in a nutshell: be one with reality (it includes others). I may be wrong but I find that Taoism states this in a most clear way.

[RiverSnake]

Why does a child build sand castles if there only going to be swept away by the ocean waves? 

[Marblehead]

Why does a child build sand castles if there only going to be swept away by the ocean waves? 

 

Interesting question.  I have never entertained it.  I would love to see others' responses.

[RiverSnake]

Interesting question.  I have never entertained it.  I would love to see others' responses.

 

You were a child once, were you not? 

[Siddharthashoka]

The adage is that a child is open, innocent and pure. Untainted by the "faults" and "failures" of this world. Yet, children are constantly being born into this world. Many do not have numerous opportunities to be "pure" and "open." I have met people who were raped and beaten as babies. Yes. I was once a child and I still have the mind and emotions of a child in many ways. People (no matter what their ages) build things and develop relationships despite the "reality" that everything that is created also is destroyed, even if it takes zillions of what we call years.

 

What is the sense of our existence in all forms if everything that we do is subject to relativity?

[Marblehead]

You were a child once, were you not? 

 

Oh!, but that was so many years ago.  I have a hard time remembering what I did yesterday.

[Earl Grey]

Children building sand castles only to be swept away by the sea--same question one asks why Tibetan monks make sand mandalas and then destroy them later to show the impermanence of life and warning to avoid attachment perhaps?

 

As for spiritual journey, I actually found I progressed more when I stopped defining it and started just living and being.

 

Perhaps I enjoy my practices and the awareness and compassion I develop, the detachment from most material indulgences, or miracles I witness daily. Maybe I enjoy the people I meet and fearless approach to life since embracing Vedic and Taoist practices. Who knows? Life beyond myself as an individual and insignificant speck of dust blessed with consciousness leads me to conclude that "I am" has lost meaning to me, and I concern myself more with "Thou Art That".

 

Dialogue, reading, travel, practices, experiences--all methods of transmission to the seeker. All paths for exploration and discovery to find the abyss within and pull out answers and mysteries, or perhaps immerse ourselves in them.

 

But what do I know? I'm just some dumb kid who plays around with things older than his own species and knowledge even his ancestors couldn't comprehend. And I will likely die before I find answers when the waves come up the shore to knock over the sand castle I've built. But at least I will have enjoyed myself and left some inspiration behind for the other kids, who I happily leave my pail and shovel for them to use, and perhaps even make a bigger, better sand castle than me and all those before me by learning from my mistakes instead of repeating them.

[blackstar212]

To live in harmony with, and be one with Tao. It sounds as if your path has been quite interesting so far thank you for sharing.

[dawei]

Children tend to live in the moment... almost outside of a concept of time.   

 

I would argue it is not because of any truth... but some deep internal 'trust' via a connection.

 

IMO, but this may be me...  I focus less on truth as it is too subjective and look at the connection we have that trusts ourselves within this universe and dimension.

[RiverSnake]

DP 

Edited August 9, 2016 by OldChi

[Spotless]

Quote from Earl Grey:

 

"Children building sand castles only to be swept away by the sea--same question one asks why Tibetan monks make sand mandalas and then destroy them later to show the impermanence of life and warning to avoid attachment perhaps?">>>

 

I think it is not to show the impermanence but rather to experience it.

 

Not a warning to avoid attachment - but to experience a detaching.

[silent thunder]

I have not encountered any

 

Why are we here, no matter what our "morals" are? What is the sense of our "good" wishes or "evil" intentions? What purpose is there in building wonderful buildings and machines? Of course, it seems very obvious from a "normal" point of view. By doing these things, we are making a better world. Nevertheless, everything in this world goes away, no matter what it is. Why? Why are we living in situations in which everything is limited? What is the sense of all of this?

 

I have read many books and I have listened to the lectures of many people in various places on this planet. My studies have included dealing deeply with various forms of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Daoism, Confucianism, Shintoism, so-called myths and fables, Satanism, agnosticism, and atheism.

 

I was a religious devotee for a few years.  Have been a vegetarian. Have mediated for many many hours. Have studied Ancient Greek, Classical Latin, Sanskrit, Hebrew, learned the Arabic script, Hindi, Urdu, Japanese, French, German, Spanish as well as dozens of other languages. Have studied Tai Kwan Do and sat for many hours in yoga positions. Have cleared my mind. Have studied herbal medicine and massage. Why? What has been the use of all of these endeavors?

 

I have spent a few decades doing these activities. I have learned many things. However, I am not sure what is true and what is false in a spiritual sense. I do not know what God is, despite having experienced a White Light situation when I was 18 years old. I sense that I have "progressed" in some ways but I am not really sure what "spiritual progress" is.

 

I am not stating these events for attention but only to express my very strong desire to find out what is my purpose in being alive. After all of my various endeavors, I could tell you stories and discuss various possibilities for months. However, I am not spiritually realized. I seem to have become stuck in a certain place and I am not moving forward. I do not want to travel anyplace new. What I believe that I need at this time is feedback from other people who may be able to help me. Maybe I will be able to help them as well.

 

If you would like to be involved in this, please reply. Thank you.

I found that my near manic seeking for decades, was the greatest obstacle of my own creation which kept me from being aware of self truth, in a manner much like the fish who is unable to perceive the water it swims through... but thankfully, that manic pursuit and constant herculean effort brought about a very natural and almost all consuming fatigue and crash of illusions.

 

It was keenly painful and totally unavoidable, looking back.  Almost like a pressure release valve built into the very fabric of a seeker.   After all, a drawn bow settles in balance.  Water flows downhill and settles in the lowest places.  There is tao.  In the shit and the mud.

 

Finally all that ego searching and building a self up with stories and objects that reinforced the effort and created honor and weighty claims around the self induced illusory quest inevitably crashed into the dung of truths.  The yang of the building wave of my seeking finally crested and its own weight brought about its yin release into balance and the resulting crash was the beautiful release.  Such calm, clear, bouyant joyful loving beingness.  Such gratitude replaced all that effort and strife.  So humbling and liberating simultaneously.

 

No effort required.  No effort possible.  It would have just created more ripples and hidden the raw, authentic truth.  Just Be.

 

My healing and authentic self, my connection to all was revealed in the release of all and in the subsequent, absolute acceptance of what is, at first out of sheer collapse and despair for a time, but eventually in simple being.  Just breathing and being.  Vajra.  A realization of abiding clarity and bliss there all along, glowing, resonating, inside me all along was what I had been seeking. 

 

I wasn't aware of it, for all the interference of the effort and the trying and the seeking, the very seeking was impeding my experience of being.

 

Seek what?  Just be...  it's fluid and it's never injured, despoiled, lost or broken.

Spotless.

[Michael Sternbach]

The way I look at spiritual evolution, it is the gradual actualization of your own potential self: That which you are meant to become - in fact, what you already are, even if in seminal form.

 

All your seeking for truth has been motivated by this: Your potential self longing for actualization. But since this is about the realization of your own individuality, no particular cut and dried system can ultimately provide you with all the answers you require.

 

Rather, use whatever knowledge you have accumulated, or that may still be out there, to formulate the answers that would satisfy your needs and fill the gaps in the jigsaw of your unique being.

 

Now that is spiritual evolution for you.

[Papayapple]

I get a disturbing feeling from these posts.

Are you suggesting that this evolution isn't really about progressing or getting better by any means?

If we are all already complete and all is needed is simple let it be attitude... then really, what are we doing here?

My head is often steaming from reading the elaborations of abstract concepts and endless comparsions of different 'levels' and states of being.

[RiverSnake]

Philosophy is bullshit. Just train.

[Boy]

@Siddharthashoka: Life is meaningless. There is no purpose. If you really want that you could join a cult. Or you could set your own goals (read Sartre to get started!). The truth will not give you purpose, but it will take away confusion and suffering. I personally would recommend that you revisit theravada buddhism.

 

@Papayapple: Internet forums are poison. Take as little as you need and then leave.

[Siddharthashoka]

As I understand it, "Let it Be" doesn't mean that we are spiritually realized.

It means that we need to learn to "go with the flow;"

be in touch with the situation as it seems to be.

 

Much so-called philosophy is not worth reading.

Spiritual experiences are not mental.

 

I was reading Jean-Paul Sartre when I was 13 years old.

 

I became an atheist when I was ten.

 

Regained faith in "God" afterwards when I was 18.

[Brian]

Why does a child build sand castles if there only going to be swept away by the ocean waves?

Because it is fun.

[silent thunder]

muddiest waters

left undisturbed by 'process'

rest in clarity.

 

in releasing all

that is not essentially

my self, what remains?

[smallsteps]

Regained faith in "God" afterwards when I was 18.

 

How/Why?

Has this faith helped you? To what extent?

[Siddharthashoka]

smallsteps (and others), I had a white light experience (after a descent into Hell) when I was 18.

 

It turned my life around.

I was trying to develop mystical powers at the time.

Although I did not believe in "God," I still believed in Black Arts.

Might not seem logical but that was my state of being.

I wanted to develop power in all fields of existence.

 

Afterwards, I became a student of various religious institutions in various places.

Focused on Buddhism and Hinduism. However, checked into other faiths as well.

Later, I began going to university.

My first major was Comparative Philosophy and Religion.

Studied various languages that had been used in some of our most popular religions.

Traveled to Europe and Asia for the first time.

Had my 23rd birthday in Bodhgaya where Buddha is supposed to have become "enlightened."

 

Experienced many forms of relative wonder.