Vulnerability

[Geof Nanto]

When I read the following passages from Damo Mitchell’s White Moon on the Mountain Peak I realised what I was trying to express in this thread under the heading of “Vulnerability” is akin to Damo’s insights into the nature of true humility. (Personally, I don’t like to use the word “humility” because it’s become a virtually meaningless cliché in spiritual circles. And too often it has negative connotations due to its association with false humility.)

 

Humility

 

Humility is an extremely Yin state of being. To be able to place yourself behind others is a difficult thing but important in Daoism. Energetically, this serves to create a powerful vacuum within your Xing, which draws spiritual learning towards you. When humbling yourself before a trusted teacher (or a deity in religious Daoism), you are manifesting the potential to draw teachings into the centre of your being. This is why so many practitioners in the past have had deep spiritual experiences when prostrating themselves before statues of Daoist immortals. In Daoist teachings, it should be one of your aims to be humble beneath the entire universe and understand humility before all beings. In this way the power of Dao, which flows through the cosmos, can enter you and make every aspect of life your teacher.

 

There are various difficulties here, though. First, humility cannot be forced upon yourself. If you try to be humble, you just create false humility, which is a very common facet of human nature. False humility is often a mask for arrogance, hidden by a verbal expression of humility.  

 

To become humble, you must understand that being humble is a very scary thing. Humility opens up the core of your being to the outside world, which leaves the acquired mind feeling extremely vulnerable. This feeling of insecurity then causes the acquired mind to try to strengthen itself through building more layers, more pieces of projected, emotionally based untruth, behind which the true self hides. Each and every time you have been hurt, made to feel small or stepped on by another, you have probably moved yourself further from a state of humility. It is for this reason that the early stages of any internal practice should really be to free yourself from as many tethers to the acquired mind as you can. By purging these emotional imbalances, your mind begins to feel more secure and therefore humility does not seem so scary a state of being. The vacuum opens and then the 'cup has been emptied'. Only at this stage can true teachings really be absorbed. 

 

Humility cannot be forced; it is a state of being that will grow naturally once the right level has been reached. This is a highly relieving state to reach — akin to a breath of fresh air for the mind. It is said that 'when the student is ready, the teacher will appear', and I believe this time is when humility is beginning to blossom within the student's Heart.

 

A second difficulty comes from the fact that humility from the student must also be matched by humility from the teacher, together with an openness to teaching. A student's humility met by a closed-off teacher will usually result in an imbalance of trust, which then leads to abuse occurring somewhere along the line. The teacher must be open to imparting information and humble to the higher powers of existence; otherwise, transmission of the method will not take place to the required degree.

 

(From White Moon on the Mountain Peak. The first paragraph is from p 83 and the remainder from p 295.)

[Stosh]

Humility is the antithesis of vulnerability.

 

Don't agree? consider the fragility of dashed ego, crushed aspirations, and imagineered virtue. Comparatively ,Humility is an iron shirt. Therefore vulnerability is no virtue in itself. 

Ironically, once you find your iron shirt , it becomes safe to throw rocks at glass houses. And When one is crushed to humility , the hard core is found. 

Look at all one is compelled to do , to save face , feed aspirations and greed and so forth , vanity is a ring in the nose of a bull. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Stosh

[Taomeow]

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 76

A man is born gentle and weak.
At his death he is hard and stiff.
Green plants are tender and filled with sap.
At their death they are withered and dry.

Therefore the stiff and unbending is the disciple of death.
The gentle and yielding is the disciple of life.

Thus an army without flexibility never wins a battle.
A tree that is unbending is easily broken.

The hard and strong will fall.
The soft and weak will overcome.

[C T]

Perhaps vulnerability comes in soft or hard packaging. 

 

Nature has her own design in protecting the most vulnerable... with a caveat - almost always, barring mishaps. 

 

The problem could very well be one of indecision or the inability to go all the way, to step over the edge, so to speak. 

There is usually hard fear associated with thoughts of dire consequences in completely letting be. After all, most 

people are self-programmed to do. Soft-type vulnerability demands to-be-as-is more than to-do-and-become. 

 

 

 

my 3 rup33s

[3bob]

A sort of transposition - but my take:

Different forms of suffering (which all boil down to a state of suffering) can bring humility - humility in recognizing and knowing that others also suffer not unlike yourself - thus the smart-ass or smarty-pants realizes that they to are not so smart (or invincible) after all and that they can be reduced to suffering via karmas or other factors  - which can then give one pause and open a space,  a space of vulnerability where compassion for the Beings and the situation can take place.  

Edited November 24, 2016 by 3bob

[Stosh]

Lemme get this right, youre saying that you actually want to suffer, so you will be able to relate and have compassion? ... so if you alleviate your own or someone elses suffering..that would diminish their capacity to relate to you.. What if,,, you werent a suffering mess, and you helped them also not to be a suffering mess, could you not relate to them ,,with everybody happy satisfied and secure? By calling weakness a virtue, are you not then committed to promote weakness and vulnerability in the people around you? Im thinking you try to help others overcome their problems by relating your understanding from your experiences , and you consider this to be an act of virtue. Reducing someones vulnerability is an act of virtue , not encouraging weakness and illusions that promote suffering.

Hiding ones foibles and bad experiences doesnt really make them go away, neither does disclosing them mean one is vulnerable to them , its the need to preserve the fiction which indicates a lack of acceptance,or humility . Ex Yes Ive screwed up at times , we all do, but no one is perfect, certainly not me. Nor do I expect anyone else to be perfect, and I dont reject you for your lack of perfection either.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

If you can be secure with your own faults, accept them , accept your humanity, recognize that we are all muddling though a difficult life, and that perfection is an illusion one wont meet. Then one sees common ground everywhere ,in everyone, and you likewise can accept flaws in others rather than reject them as human beings. Feeling vulnerable ,having fears that you arent good enough, means you can think others arent good enough either! and you dont accept that in them or yourself.Thats why humility is the virtue, and vulnerability is the flaw due to a preserved illusion.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Stosh

[3bob]

Stosh, Sounds like you are way hung up on a word which can be used in more than one context?

[Stosh]

Stosh, Sounds like you are way hung up on a word which can be used in more than one context?

Potentially, ,What word ? and why are you describing it as hung up?

[Stosh]

Maybe so. But, regardless of that possibility, most people who value "vulnerability" don't value it for good reasons. They like to have weaknesses and have people who can support their weaknesses. This sort of supporting relationship is seen as comforting or balancing. I don't really see it that way. People should try to be as strong as they can on their own and make each other stronger when they're together. "Vulnerability" (the thing people call to mind when describing themselves in these situations) is not a good thing at all; it is a permitted weakness that is often made for the purpose of playing out subconsciously desired stories and relations. It is a type of vacancy that is made so as to invite something else to fill in the role.

 

When people do that, they will never be complete because they have, on some level, purposefully avoided cultivating and balancing something so they can defer that responsibility to someone or something else.

That could be true, but I figure most wouldnt see themselves in that light, so to give anyone the biggest benefit of a doubt, I didnt want to present that aspect as the way Id want to depict the relationship. Folks always seem to gravitate fastest to the most negative possibility and Id rather spin it, in the least negative light for that reason. In general I think folks here are intending well ,so Id rather err on that side.

[3bob]

I did not mean vulnerability in a negative connotation or as being a static condition - and I don't think the O.P. did either.

 

Thus more as a learning process that comes out the other side of it stronger than when going through it...for instance it takes more strength to forgive in a positive and active way that brings mutual understanding and goodness than to take up the rage of vengeance which is the "mind killer".

[Stosh]

Yeah...

 

Especially this year (with relatives and in-laws in the area), I get to see these things rather prominently. The sheer volume of selective self-sabotage and bad faith tends to make me rather bitter. And then I get to hear in the margins about how something external is the source of their problems....

 

>>>I can be a bit of a negative nelly when things start to grate on me.

You too ,huh ? yeah its a bummer ,and if you want to fix that, you risk coming off preachy. May I suggest leaving them to their stuff and focus on whatever good is mixed in? Keeping yourself just a bit aloof where they lose their way so as not to play an unintending role in that? Forgive them everything! let em get away with murder, so to speak. Just dont get dragged down out of concern for them ,because thats misguided and you cant help if youre down in the dumps too. I of course dont know the particulars ,the hurdles, but I do know what that all is like in general too.

[Stosh]

I did not mean vulnerability in a negative connotation or as being a static condition - and I don't think the O.P. did either.

 

Thus more as a learning process that comes out the other side of it stronger than when going through it...for instance it takes more strength to forgive in a positive and active way that brings mutual understanding and goodness than to take up the rage of vengeance which is the "mind killer".

So this view is of vulnerability as a door , ok whats on the other side of the door? strength to forgive? Id say the door leads to the virtue one would have, and called it humility. The subject is vulnerability, I see folks describing it as a virtue in and of itself, Im just correcting that misapprehension,,as I see it, I am not hung up, its just everyone who opposes me is wrong.

[3bob]

that is one possible view, also an understanding of the various aspects and processes of vulnerability could be seen as a virtue or as a plus.  Btw, anyone can be vulnerable to a fall until they have gone past the point of no return with their soul in Spirit - a point where egotism can no longer prevail or undo them.  

[Stosh]

that is one possible view, also an understanding of the various aspects and processes of vulnerability could be seen as a virtue or as a plus.  Btw, anyone can be vulnerable to a fall until they have gone past the point of no return with their soul in Spirit - a point where egotism can no longer prevail or undo them.

 

Yeah ,true.

[Geof Nanto]

I have many vulnerabilities, hence this topic is deeply meaningful for me. I certainly don’t see them as a virtue but as an attribute humans have, indeed all living things have. I wrote of my insights for my own clarity and also because sharing experiences is vital for anyone on a path of personal growth. I would have floundered long ago without the benefit of other people’s experiences. I reciprocate in the hope my words may resonate with someone else.  Connection through shared inner experience is the life-blood of my practice.  

 

I have no desire to convince anyone who doesn’t relate to what I feel, but also I don’t like it when someone seems to (deliberately?) misinterpret my meaning, or to have not properly read my posts on the subject.  Disputation that seem to revolve around words rather than intent feels counterproductive to me – like it’s creating imaginary difference for the sake of disputation.

[Stosh]

If my concentration on the word is but a distraction , I can delete it , just say to.

But if we are to understand what one another means, examining the words is important. Its a vehicle to expose the nuance one imbues to an idea. I think its important, to literally lay it all out ,,otherwise one but imagines whether they are understood or understanding. When everyones on the same page, brevity comes into its own, ,no doubt, but especially when it comes to daoist ideas, or the sentiments someone powerfully wants to share , Meaning pivots on a pin.

I submit it that ,though it may seem odd, in fact, the majority of discussions actually get cut off far short of the goal, which is ,to come to a concensus of unederstanding., not leave the participants dug into the foxholes they start out digging. I havent done it yet, but Ive considered counting how many quality counterposts a person can reply to without getting vexed., for most I expect theyve be taught to get upset somewhere in the single digit range.

[Geof Nanto]

The English word vulnerable derives from Latin vulnerare ‘to wound’. Hence I see ‘vulnerability’ as susceptibility to be wounded either physically, energetically, emotionally, or spiritually. As a human I am consciously able to correct some (hopefully many) of my acquired vulnerabilities through methods such as, for instance, Daoist praxis, but underneath there will always be vulnerabilities that are intrinsically human. 

[Stosh]

Is the praxis working sufficiently?

[C T]

I think if one takes some time to study the lives of ascetics from the various spiritual traditions, it becomes clear (to me at least) that they intentionally practice being vulnerable to the point of total surrender to grace or mother nature or higher blessings, many labels, but essentially abandoning self to a spiritual force that they know for certain is worth much much more than anything that is available on the physical realm, which we already know is full of unsatisfactoriness due to the transient nature of whats here. 

 

It is not necessarily a negative state of being, and when approached correctly, definitely transcends emotional and psychological planes. 

 

Somewhere in the teachings of Jesus it was mentioned that unless followers become like little children it will be difficult, even impossible, to enter God's kingdom. To me, this phrase speaks directly to the power of becoming or allowing for utter vulnerability. From the viewpoint of Christianity and the blessing of Grace, it would seem that should one be so fortunate as to meet that experience, one does not get to choose acceptance or rejection. When it descends, it shakes a person to the core. There is no hiding place - best not to fight it and simply surrender, or the consequences could be dire. If this is not vulnerability in its purest form, i dont know what is. 

[Stosh]

According to your tradition,, once thats done, are you still woundable?

[C T]

According to your tradition,, once thats done, are you still woundable?

Sure, physically anyway. Jesus embodied the whole woundability thing, didn't he? 

[Geof Nanto]

According to your tradition,, once thats done, are you still woundable?

 

Oh Stosh! that's such a big question. I'll leave it open for others to reply if they so desire. CT has made an interesting start. My only comment at this stage is that some Daoists aim for immortality. However I'm not one of them. (Indeed, although I like much about Daoism, I don't consider myself a Daoist.) Basically, what you're asking is way beyond my experience.  However I agree with CT that for people on a spiritual path our intrinsic vulnerability is something to be worked with, not hidden from. 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Yueya

[Stosh]

Sure, physically anyway. Jesus embodied the whole woundability thing, didn't he?

 

I dunno, My impression was that his task was to show that the physical and spiritual obstacles presented to men were surmountable. So .. I suppose you could reasonably look at that tradition in the way you are. Good answer. So.... are we talking about spiritual woundability or being physically weak? I dont know of any tradition where the idea is to become physically weaker, ,, so.. though your answer is great, it sidesteps perhaps , whether the goal is to remain vulnerable spiritually , or to be transformed to perhaps be beyond that ..or something.

[Stosh]

Oh Stosh! that's such a big question. I'll leave it open for others to reply if they so desire. CT has made an interesting start. My only comment at this stage is that some Daoists aim for immortality. However I'm not one of them. (Indeed, although I like much about Daoism, I don't consider myself a Daoist.) Basically, what you're asking is way beyond my experience. However I agree with CT that for people on a spiritual path our intrinsic vulnerability is something to be worked with, not hidden from.

 

Oh, I didnt see it that way, hmmm. I just assumed that it would be daoist virtue, taken to the extreme, personified by the sage, to escape the illusions which bring us pain and cause us to be ... less compassionate, etc , because the soul of a human nature was good , if we could just get there. And therefore the praxis would point you at the virtues of humility, antidote for spiritual vulnerability. Edited November 26, 2016 by Stosh