Chan/Zen - where does it belong?

[gatito]

Just scanned the Wikipedia article, reflected a bit and come to a conclusion myself.

 

Interested in other opinions.

 

No justification necessary but feel free to post reasoning if you want.

[Miffymog]

I've been drawn to both in the past just because they each have large elements that I resonate with which happen to be very similar. As far as the poll goes, it does kind of depend what kind of Buddhism you are referring to. But for me, feeling autocratic on this one - Chan Buddhism is Buddhist, not least because it's there in the title

[Brian]

I've thought of it as Buddhism with a Taoist influence but I don't consider myself as particularly knowledgeable about Buddhism, Taoism or Chan/Zen (and not exactly a devotee of any of them, either).

[Jeff]

Zen is buddhism with a specific view on "mind".  Like with the Yogacara school of buddhism.

[NotVoid]

I do not know where Chan/Zen belongs, but I think practices like that can and did fall under many influences, especially when moving from one region to another, or from one country to another, etc. For comparison, I don't think Gautama Buddha passed on much in the way of religious concepts in regards to spiritual worship and related practices, if any at all, at least not that I am aware of, but such practices seem to have become widespread under the banner of Buddhism. All such things can be subjected to heavy influence and change over time, so I think it might be pretty hard to pin down any given long standing cultivation practice (i.e., a practice or tradition that has been around for many centuries) to any certain specific influences and sources. Both Taoism and Buddhism in general have a wide range of sources and influences over the centuries as well. After so many centuries and so many potential influences, who can say for sure what all the exact sources and influences and changes were over the centuries? Just my point of view...

[Aeran]

It's always felt more Buddhist than Daoist to me, but I'm not an expert in either.

[Muu]

Coming from a Zen background I'll throw in my 2 cents.

 

Chan is Mahayana Buddhism in China as sprouted from Boddhidharma. Zen us the Japanese pronunciation of Chan. The difference is mainly cultural.

 

Chan, and thus Zen, have been influenced by Daoism just as it also influenced Daoism. One main Daoist school even teaches it's students to study Chan as well. I find that Daoism and Chan/Zen compliment each other very well.

[Walker]

Whatever and however many the influences of Daoism on Chan Buddhism, there's will be no question in your mind that Chan Buddhists are still very, very much Buddhists if you spend time around them in China, read their books, or visit their temples. Nearly all of them I've met view Chan as simply one part of the vast Buddhist milieu, and they tend to draw upon ideas, practices, vocabulary, and beliefs from other currents in Buddhist thought just as much as they draw upon those that are more strictly Chan-related.

 

Conversely, my experience is that they seldom draw upon Daoist ideas. While many enthusiasts for Chan Buddhism have varying levels of interest in or acceptance of a small number of Daoist texts (usually just the Daodejing, maybe a bit of Zhuangzi--in a few rare cases I've met some who also study more obscure Daoist books), they nevertheless use a vocabulary that is almost entirely Buddhist. I've heard many Chan Buddhists say things like, "Laozi certainly had great wisdom, but let me tell you, the Daoist teachings are still miles away from Buddhist teachings," or, "Buddhism is so much higher-level than Daoism that, because I'm a student of Buddhism, I can read any chapter in the Daodejing and know exactly what it's talking about with ease."

 

The book Autobiography of Empty Cloud, translated by Charles Luk of Taoist Yoga fame, can easily be found for free online. It's a great read about a great Chan master from recent times. Reading this book is a good way to see how a Chan master views Buddhism and Daoism, and also how he uses other aspects of traditional Chinese culture, such as fengshui.