What about bisexuals in relationships with women?

[taothinker]

[MatthewQi]

TaoThinker,

 

It doesn't matter at all. I have a friend who is gay and he is one of the more spiritually advanced people I know. It's rubbish, forget about what people say and do your practice with peace of mind. He has told me that he does go through periods of celibacy for spirtual purposes.

 

Although it is recommended to draw in more Yin earth energy in the HT sexual practices if you have an excess of yang (due to yang - yang relations), the same thing is needed for heterosexual solo practitioners a lot of times as well. There is information on this topic in the "Taoist Secrets of Love: Cultivating Male Sexual Energy" book.

 

Having a cousin who is a gay female and a spiritual friend who is a gay male, it is really disappointing the amount of discrimination that is directed against gay people and it is even perpetuated at times by spiritual people and leaders even. It is bizarre that people bring these false beliefs into something as sacred as ones divine right to know the Tao.

 

In some shamanic traditions, there are what are called "soft men" who are shamans who wear female clothing, etc. For example, sometimes the adept is instructed to change sex by a spirit at the time their shamanic life starts to manifest. For more, see "Sex and Spirituality" by C. Bishop (I recommend to anyone who is interested in the topic of sex and spirituality, it is the most comprehensive book I have seen on the topic looking at traditions across the globe and over time).

 

I hope I am clearly making a point and that you will find that a spiritual path is as much your right as anyone elses regarless of your sexual orientation or preferences. Mantak Chia says in one of his Alchemy tapes when talking about using aroused energy in alchemy, something like it doesn't matter if it is pink elephants that stimulate you, anything, just feel it and use it.

 

Best to you!

 

Matt

[thelerner]

Well said, Matt.

 

Tangentally, I find long term spiritual people turn more androgenous as they age. Glenn Morris mentions that in his first book. Hopefully as we age we drop the Ism's, Asm's and chasms that divide people.

 

 

Michael

[cloud recluse]

Someone, I dont know who, said "Its not WHO you love, but rather DO you love ?".

 

Whose 'more spiritual' ? A hetrosexual who intimudates & abuses their partner on a daily basis , or a homosexual whose sexuality is an expression of caring & intimacy ?

 

Whose 'more spiritual' ? Some pompous idiot who prattles on about the Undefinfable Dao, & then announces gays cant cultivate based on some archaic crap from an outdated patriarchy, or someone who SEES all things & beings as an expression of the Dao & treats them accordingly, even if they dont preach much .

 

Any reasonable look at sexuality reveals a wide range of expressions. This IS NOT "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS", just up to date observations.If someones too ignorant to realise this, I really couldnt be bothered debating it with them.

 

Ironically, amongst my freinds,Im the one seen as politically incorrect. & if its relevant, Im actually a hetrosexual male.

 

I know Im being fairly blunt & unsubtle ,but I really couldnt be bothered being otherwise. Theres been some stunningly ignorant drivel about sexuality lately that, if it wasnt so potentially destructive, would just be funny .

 

Bullshit arguments about the inferiority of gay chi , or whatever that crap was supposed to be , can be safely put into the same garbage bin as flat earth theory.

 

I know some traditional soceties were worried that admitting people were having buttsex meant that the crops would fail, but I think we are past that now .

 

Love who you want to, IT MAKES NO FUCKING DIFFERENCE to your cultivation. Just remember the active word is LOVE .

 

I even luv the pseudo-spiritual homophobes who argue that "all is Dao , unless your gay". Yes , I luv you.

 

Even though you are pig-ignorant dim-wits.

 

Yours belligerently, Cloud

[Cameron]

Funny

 

Loving energy aside. I know this is maybe too simplistic. I mean, it's probably just me talking shit and I am fine if that's the case. But..from a natural biological standpoint..I am sorry..I just don't see the anal canal as being supposed to be used for sexual intercourse.

 

I know, I know. How dare I say such a thing. BTW, this is not a gay issue at all. My guess is there are more striaght people in the world engaging in anal canal love than gay people. Probably by a huge margin.

 

So, love who you will, enjoy your life. But I just don't see anal canal sex as being something that was designed to be the way to go for straight people or gay people. Sure, some animals might do it too. Some genius will probably talk about dolphins that massage each others anuses for life. But humans can sort of look at such things in a more clear headed fashion.

 

It's all good. Express yourself, have fun.

 

Just seems that the universe in this reality created these things called penises and these things called vaginas that seem from the outset they go well together.

 

Best!

[cloud recluse]

Funny

...

 

Just seems that the universe in this reality created these things called penises and these things called vaginas that seem from the outset they go well together.

 

Best!

 

I assume from this that you dont feel its right to get your cock sucked, you would oppose that,yes ?

 

Do you seriously think your genitals were 'designed' in a limited manner?

 

How many different places can you put your fingers ?

 

Which areas of your skin surface are 'designed ' to be rubbed against someone, or isnt that their 'proper use' ?

 

You wernt 'designed" for a prescribed purpose. You are an open-ended exploration , an unrestrained variable. Whats all this "Its not made for that " stuff. It does WHATEVER it can do !!! It doesnt do what it cant ,thats all you need to know, & you only KNOW from exploration.

 

Are you really an enemy of foreplay ?

 

And no, Im not trying to fuck you ( Though Im sure your very cute. You write in such a young, firm , pert manner..oh..oh god.. I....I think I have to log off now ).

 

Yours steamingly. Cloud

Edited November 29, 2007 by cloud recluse

[Cameron]

All good questions.

 

As far as I can tell, oral love is perfectly natural.

 

We kiss, we make out..we swallow eachothers saliva.

 

Seems to be sharing yourself with your partner orally is a natural expression and I just don't see a correlation between a woman(or man) sucking a woman(or man's) penis(or vagina) and sticking your penis up in this small opening that a woman(or man's) excrement comes out of.

 

I know. How dare I say a woman or man's mouth is any better than there shithole.

 

Anyway..my guess is people will be discussing this long after you and I are gone

[cloud recluse]

....

 

I know. How dare I say a woman or man's mouth is any better than there shithole.

.....

 

HAH ! Your porn-fu is not strong !!

Edited November 29, 2007 by cloud recluse

[Cameron]

HAH ! Your porn-fu is not strong !!

 

 

Ummmm...Ok?

[cloud recluse]

Ummmm...Ok?

 

 

 

Twas a humourous quip, nothing more .

 

But on the serious side, I would contest the use of natural/unnaural here. It doesnt refer to anything real in this matter.

 

People like to explore & invent. And as no-one "designed" us, The Dao not being any big anthropomorphic dictator in the sky, its erroneous to use 'naturalism' in this . If it doesnt push your buttons , thats cool. There is no reason why it has to. But if it pushes someone elses, why not ?

 

Your thrill isnt natural, theirs isnt either. Neither are they unnatural .

 

Your just not into it.

 

Argiung about the right style of stimulation is as f**k-witted as arguing about the right style of music (have you ever listened to musicians arguing, partticularly the unsuccesful ones ) .

 

Its what emotions & motives are expressed that counts, not what is stuck where & who gets to wear the latex nuns costume.

 

Thers no 'natural' to "It", coz there aint an "It".

[Cameron]

I don't know why you are turning this into some sort of argument.

 

I am not arguing.

 

You say the Tao doesn't 'judge' you if you engage in anal canal love.

 

Fair enough.

 

I am saying..this little crack behind your genitals was designed to be a one way street where your bodies waste goes out.

 

You can't use the same argument for peoples mouths.

 

We eat with our mouth. We talk with our mouth. We breathe with our mouths.

 

Last time I checked..we don't talk or breathe with our anuses.

 

We shit with them.

 

Nice try though

[cloud recluse]

I don't know why you are turning this into some sort of argument.

 

I am not arguing.

 

.....

 

Sorry if Im being argumentative, & my first post on this thread was a bit aggresive I suppose. I wasnt trying to attack you though .

 

I guess I just think its a very important point, as far as any one thing could be called "important." But I wasnt directing any aggression at you, & I apologise if it came off that way.

 

Attitudes in this area can have very real consequences for people in a whole number of ways , so I do think compassion demands we be clear . This can make me very finicky & pedantic ( which can be counterproductive )

 

Im not looking for a fight or anything like that. But I am very wary of the whole natural/ unnatural thing.

 

So Im NOT saying that you are a homophobe or anything like that. Please be assured that is NOT the case, & I apologise if it sounds like I was.

Edited November 29, 2007 by cloud recluse

[taothinker]

hello

 

 

I think you all missed my point. What I want to know is from those people arguing that gay men can’t make same spiritual growth, wether they were talking about gays in sexual relationships with other men, or gay men in general ( even those in celibacy ). If it is the latter, then are they sugesting that gay people are just somehow “wired” wrongly and that wrong wiring prevents them from making same spiritual progress as hetero men?

 

Same question as above, only this time for bisexuals (or more precisely, about those into almost women and women, since I fall into this category)

 

 

 

Whether I believe that to be true is another matter and not for this topic (but I do appreciate your positive feedbacks)

 

 

 

 

Loving energy aside. I know this is maybe too simplistic. I mean, it's probably just me talking shit and I am fine if that's the case. But..from a natural biological standpoint..I am sorry..I just don't see the anal canal as being supposed to be used for sexual intercourse.

 

I think anus plays very vital role in sexual tantra yoga and its stimulation is of much importance there and if you dismiss putting anything up the love hole, then you dismiss the whole sexual tantra practice

Edited November 29, 2007 by taothinker

[Ian]

I think I sort of, kind of, do dismiss a lot of what is presented as sexual tantra practice.

 

Not for anus related reasons, but just because I think an awful lot of people market their practices as tantra because it's a convenient word by which people understand "some kind of esoteric sexual practice."

 

And I believe that tantra means something much more clear and pure and scary and completely unindulgent.

 

And that a lot of people practice high level sexual energy exchange and access very profound states thereby, but what they do isn't tantra.

 

But anyway, back to the argument

 

I think it might help to define love. (Whew!)

 

Love between people is a mixture of kindness, and attachment, and attraction, and awareness of biological compatibility, and mutual interest. Enough non-verbal inexplicable emotional feeling, or enough desire, and we call it love. And it's great, and certainly better than anything which doesn't help people treat each other nicely.

 

But Love, capital L, is impersonal, and subtends everything, and is approached through peace and stillness and will not be felt in any moment where attachement to another person is more important. It is this love which genuine tantra addresses.

 

If this Love is to be approached via sexuality, it needs to be a non-deliberate balancing of yin and yang, accomplished by nothing more than putting bodies together and keeping all your personal attachments from interfering.

 

For this it doesn't really matter what shape your body is, because everyone has yin and yang inside them.

 

But it may be easier if one body is very yin and one very yang. And this is probably, generally, exemplified more often in situations where one body is male and one female. Maybe.

 

But there are many ways to approach this Love. And most of them have fewer pitfalls than sexual practice.

So nothing is impossible for anyone.

 

As ever, all just opinion.

I

[Cameron]

I just watched some bisexual porn.

 

Here is my updated opinion. Do what is fun to you.

 

It's an interesting energy. This one guy had his penis in a girls vagina(or was it her ass?) and from behind-as he was penetrating this girl-a man was penetrating him.

 

Sort of like a dick,pussy,ass,dick sandwich.

 

From what I could gather, these bisexual guys were clearly enjoying themselves.

 

However, I can't shake off the feeling if these guys ever got into cultivation it might be challenging. From what I have seen of bisexual and gay porn the energy is extremely Yang. It's basically like the opposite of what Taoists teach about sexuality. Fire and ejaculate as hard and fast as you can.

 

And my hunch is there would still be some energetic and maybe even physical damage done from that repeated sort of encounter.

 

After a few minutes I "balanced out" watching some Man on Woman porn .Right from the start I sensed a more harmonious and balanced energy just having the female present .I don't know .I have never had sex with a man-and don't plan too-but just seems like the absence of the female yin part sort of makes the energy unbalanced. I mean..if you can somehow connect to the Earth Yin or the Moon or whatever great.

 

I can just imagine the ancient Tao Immortals looking down on me after I meditate and start surfing Youporn going "WTF?!"

[Cameron]

I just had something else come up.

 

No judgements or negativity or anything like that.

 

An honest question for Gay or Bisexual Taobums(only men please if your a woman that doesn't count. Woman playing with eachother just seems like a fun sleepover).

 

Ok..so..question.

 

Gay and Bisexual Taobums..if you had the opportunity to be born a woman instead of a man would you prefer to have been a woman?

 

Here is the premise of my question.

 

If you take the idea of past lives to it's conclusion you would probably come to the conclusion that we have all been both men and woman at some point. Subsequently we have all fucked and been fucked in our respective male or female bodies(human or otherwise).

 

I have an idea that gay or bisexual men might be strongly connencted to the karma or energy of one of there past lifetimes as a woman(I suppose you could say some very yang lesbians who play the "male role" might by the same token feel strongly connected to the energy of a past life as a man).

 

So..if you honestly search your feelings..do you think this might be the case? Or would you still-given the opportunity to be a woman and be able to have sex with men in the regulalr fashion-would you still prefer being a man?

 

Again, no judgments just interested in possibly exploring the past life angle and whether you honestly would have preffered to be woman(as we all probably have been both woman and men at some point if you take the past lifetime idealogy to it's conclusion).

 

namaste

[taothinker]

[Cameron]

I don't know. I think your specific question about cultivating with a girl with a penis is out of my element.

 

What is it about the energy of a girl with a penis that's interesting to you if you don't mind me asking.

[taothinker]

I don't know. I think your specific question about cultivating with a girl with a penis is out of my element.

 

 

That is why Im asking about bisexuals in general and their ability to spiritually grow ( if in relationship with a girl ). But so far none of the people that made those comments in 'men love' thread don't seem too eager to help me out here. This is of major importance to me and it's partially due to comments they made in that thread, but I guess they don't feel the need to help me with it. I guess I will have to practice for few more years and then they will become vocal about how all those years Ive put into practice where in vain

 

 

What is it about the energy of a girl with a penis that's interesting to you if you don't mind me asking.

I never met any transexual in real life, so I can't tell you about the energy. Perhaps pictures lie and what looks like a girl with penis, in real life actually doesn't...that would be a complete turn off. But if even in real life she would look like a girl with all the features of a hot woman + one extra detail ( soft skin, feminine face etc) then Id be turned on I guess

Edited November 30, 2007 by taothinker

[Sun_Wukong]

But..from a natural biological standpoint..I am sorry..I just don't see the anal canal as being supposed to be used for sexual intercourse.

i 'd say your wrong.

since mammels developed evolutionary from Birds/reptiles/amphibians ur biological standpoint isnt that bio - logical.

they all have a cloaca!

 

 

In zoological anatomy, a cloaca is the posterior opening that serves as the only such opening for the intestinal, urinary, and (usually) genital tracts of certain animal species. The word comes from Latin, and means "sewer". All birds, reptiles, and amphibians possess this orifice, from which they excrete both urine and feces, unlike placental mammals, which possess two separate orifices for evacuation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloaca

so you see from the evolutionary point of view , which repeats itself in the embryonical devolpment of every biological being, the anal canal and the sexual organ were one for a long time.

you can think about that the next time you eat an egg.

 

your biological standpoint is purpose oriented and leaves out how somthing develops.

that's -besides being unbiological -pretty undaoistic from my point of view. since it is a daoist tradition to learn from animals - especially today with the knowledge about evolution.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Sun_Wukong

[Cameron]

i 'd say your wrong.

since mammels developed evolutionary from Birds/reptiles/amphibians ur biological standpoint isnt that bio - logical.

they all have a cloaca!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloaca

 

 

Huh?

 

So your saying because animals and reptiles have an anus that automatically means they(and humans) should be having anal sex?

 

Interesting view!

 

I am not saying we should or shouldn't or anything like that. It's just..well..interesting that you have nature develop the vagina and so many people find the "cloaca" as or more interesting.

 

And..of course..gays don't have vaginas so I guess you work with what you got!

 

Like I said..I am guessing people will be talking about this long after we are all gone.

 

And..my guess is anal sex(or sex at all for that matter) probably has little to nothing to do with one's spiritual development.

 

In fact..for most sexuality is probably the single biggest obstacle to enlightenment.

 

I think this guy named Shakyamuni Buddha said that. Maybe you heard of him before.

 

Cam

[iadnon]

Well, it's pleasing to know you all are really open-minded.

 

I've been always gay. Anyway, I could have sex with a woman with no major problem, but what shoot my sexual drive are men.

 

In what it's related to the anus, I know many het men practice anal sex with their women partners, I mean, they engage in a she-fucks-him session. Anus is a zone full of nerves, and the mere insertion gives much pleasure. It's true it is not design for such things, at first sight, but the sexual pleasure is something that just happens.

 

Added to the previous lines, men's prostate can be stimulated through anus. That's why you can cum if you're fucked. The inserted penis stimulates the prostate, tapping it, till you cum. The orgasm is, also, different from a traditional one. You must be really relaxed to achieve so, because if you're tense, your inner musculature doesn't let it happen (personal experience).

 

So, our bodies are full of nerve centers for sex. Skin is the most obvious one. Lips, nipples, ears, and so on. It's a matter of investigation. Nipples, in men, weren't designed to give pleasure, but they do!

 

I practice taoism. I can generate sexual energy, ascend it through my spine, spill it in my head, and download it again to my navel. I combine that orbit practice with other techniques on energy (as NEW, in astraldynamics.com), and I've been having great results.

 

Be positive, and laugh of life.

[Cameron]

It's not a gay or straight issue.

 

However I did read somewhere that anal sex between men can be damaging to a man's spirit. No idea about why it didn't get into details. I think it may have even been a book about tantric sex.

 

That's why a forum like Taobums is great. Here we have andon..a PRACTICING Tao gay guy..giving feedback on his experience. And your attitude makes me think maybe it is perfectly natural for human beings evolution for gay,straight or bisexuals happlily penetrating eachothers anal canals.

 

And with that..I think I have said all that is to say for my part for atleast another lifetime.