Are we overcomplicating this?

[Easternmost Frontier]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately as I slowly, slowly re-engage with my own practice after a period of illness.

I'm starting to think we're overcomplicating things. I've practiced and read about a great many systems of meditation and energy cultivation--which seem to grow increasingly complex the further I get into them--and they may be losing the plot, as it were.  Simple "sitting and forgetting" and a more active component (Tai Chi, Qigong, Yoga, etc) are helping me regain ground faster than any of the more complicated systems.

So maybe we should just return to basics? It's a thought, and I'd love to hear yours.

[Spotless]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately as I slowly, slowly re-engage with my own practice after a period of illness.

I'm starting to think we're overcomplicating things. I've practiced and read about a great many systems of meditation and energy cultivation--which seem to grow increasingly complex the further I get into them--and they may be losing the plot, as it were.  Simple "sitting and forgetting" and a more active component (Tai Chi, Qigong, Yoga, etc) are helping me regain ground faster than any of the more complicated systems.

So maybe we should just return to basics? It's a thought, and I'd love to hear yours.

"Forgetting" ?

 

I have never heard of this as an active component of meditation.

Also: Real Yoga is primarily meditation - (though I understand your point).

[dawei]

Simple "sitting and forgetting"

 

Just for reference... this is translation from Zuowang.

 

http://www.oldoakdao.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Zuowang_-_Shi_Jing.176122155.pdf

[Jetsun]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately as I slowly, slowly re-engage with my own practice after a period of illness.

 

I'm starting to think we're overcomplicating things. I've practiced and read about a great many systems of meditation and energy cultivation--which seem to grow increasingly complex the further I get into them--and they may be losing the plot, as it were. Simple "sitting and forgetting" and a more active component (Tai Chi, Qigong, Yoga, etc) are helping me regain ground faster than any of the more complicated systems.

 

So maybe we should just return to basics? It's a thought, and I'd love to hear yours.

I was reading about this guy Peter Ralston who after practising martial arts for many years decided to go back to the absolute basics, strip everything down and find out what the basic fundamental principles were behind doing simple things such as throw a punch, where the energy originates and the optimum body positions for it to flow etc.

 

He even ended up relearning the fundamentals of things like the optimum way to stand and walk by understanding the underlying principles behind them.

 

The result was that he was the first non-Asian ever to win the World Championship full-contact martial arts tournament held in the Republic of China.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Jetsun

[dwai]

Just for reference... this is translation from Zuowang.

 

http://www.oldoakdao.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Zuowang_-_Shi_Jing.176122155.pdf

 

To the OP - yes...nicely articulated.

To Dawei - This is excellent - thanks for sharing

[Daeluin]

When the whole is divided, parts need names.

 

When we focus on simplicity, that is enough.

 

Sometimes with refining, we may use our awareness of the parts to step beyond something that was holding us back.

 

Whether or not this is necessary is anyone's guess.

 

In taijiquan one might be told to hold their spine in a certain way. Holding their spine this way might take extra effort, and over time this effort might help the energy flow in a way that creates greater integrity. And one might also simply hold their spine in the most comfortable posture at the time and focus on cultivating the qi. As the qi builds, the posture that is most comfortable will naturally change.

 

I prefer this second method. However sometimes we get stuck in a place where we aren't sure what is holding us back, and we don't seem to be changing in a way that will move us forward. Perhaps we need time. Perhaps we need a very precise change that is difficult to comprehend from our perspective. Perhaps we need to accept something or make a sacrifice to help our life become simpler. Perhaps we need to heal old trauma or let something go that our energy is attached to. Perhaps we need a teacher to help show us our blind spots.

 

Parts may be described in many ways, over many systems. All patterning systems are centered in the whole - they all show the same things, from different perspectives. A tracker can see medical ailments in the footprints, much as can a palm reader, much as can an astrologer from any astrological system.

 

In taoist classics there are frequently found advisements on what things do NOT lead to the culmination of the way. In general the things mentioned are simply related to attachments. Methods and techniques are tools that may be used to take us further. When we no longer need them we should let the tool go.

 

Stillness is easy to maintain.

What has not yet emerged is easy to prevent.

The brittle is easy to shatter.

The small is easy to scatter.

Solve it before it happens.

Order it before chaos emerges.

A tree as wide as a man's embrace

Grows from a tiny shoot.

A tower of nine stories

Starts with a pile of dirt.

A climb of eight hundred feet

Starts where the foot stands.

Those who act will fail.

Those who seize will lose.

So, the sage does not act and therefore does not fail,

Does not seize and therefore does not lose.

People fail at the threshold of success.

Be as cautious at the end as at the beginning.

Then there will be no failure.

Therefore the sage desires no desire,

Does not value rare treasures,

Learns without learning,

Recovers what people have left behind.

He wants all things to follow their own nature,

But dares not act.

 

daodejing 64

[silent thunder]

Just for reference... this is translation from Zuowang.

 

http://www.oldoakdao.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Zuowang_-_Shi_Jing.176122155.pdf

 

This really resonates.  Thanks for sharing it.

Any more, cultivation is presence and to me, it's main action, if one could be assigned, is release. 

 

This presence and release... may they soak into every aspect of my day and night...

[doc benway]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately as I slowly, slowly re-engage with my own practice after a period of illness.

 

I'm starting to think we're overcomplicating things. I've practiced and read about a great many systems of meditation and energy cultivation--which seem to grow increasingly complex the further I get into them--and they may be losing the plot, as it were.  Simple "sitting and forgetting" and a more active component (Tai Chi, Qigong, Yoga, etc) are helping me regain ground faster than any of the more complicated systems.

 

So maybe we should just return to basics? It's a thought, and I'd love to hear yours.

 

For me the most profound and effective practice is the most simple.

That said, simple does not always mean easy.

And one nice things about simple practices is that we can continue to do them even during periods of illness.

In fact, the measure of the effectiveness of a practice is not what experiences we have on the cushion but how they help us to deal with the rough patches.

[joeblast]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately as I slowly, slowly re-engage with my own practice after a period of illness.

 

I'm starting to think we're overcomplicating things. I've practiced and read about a great many systems of meditation and energy cultivation--which seem to grow increasingly complex the further I get into them--and they may be losing the plot, as it were.  Simple "sitting and forgetting" and a more active component (Tai Chi, Qigong, Yoga, etc) are helping me regain ground faster than any of the more complicated systems.

 

So maybe we should just return to basics? It's a thought, and I'd love to hear yours.

the fewer that make it up the mountain, the fewer there are to have actually drawn accurate maps of the upper terrain. 

 

the basics is all the training required to get up the mountain, and you utilize it all the way up

 

so yes absolutely, if one feels he doesnt have the basics down, return to basics and refine them.

 

even if one feels he has the basics down, one should be returning to them, often, as in every session.

[mystery]

I am finally being guided to simplicity once again. I am thankful.

Edited August 15, 2016 by mystery

[Michael Sternbach]

I'm not sure why you consider Taiji one of the more simple systems. I love it, but I find it really complex - at least if we are talking about the more advanced level of yang style.

[Daeluin]

Simple is simply what we treat simply.

Complicated is what we make complicated.

Could be anything.

[dwai]

I'm not sure why you consider Taiji one of the more simple systems. I love it, but I find it really complex - at least if we are talking about the more advanced level of yang style.

 

The more advanced taiji becomes, the simpler it gets imho. Sometimes it is just standing in the beginning posture and meditating for a long time

[joeblast]

Simple does not imply easy

[RiverSnake]

Simple is powerful. 

[Michael Sternbach]

This may serve to illustrate what I mean by Taiji becoming increasingly complex at the more advanced levels.

 

 

This is not to say that it doesn't become simple and natural eventually. It is just to demonstrate why I wouldn't consider Taiji one of the more simple methods of cultivation as per the OP.

[Daeluin]

When one tries to mentally microadjust in many specific ways, one is more prone to blocking the flow of qi.

 

However, the more one works with the qi, the more the qi replenishes and fills and refines until it naturally spirals, naturally opens up the various orbits at the correct timings, etc.

 

When we say that such and such is the correct way, it may be true from some perspective, but often the best way of getting there is by following, not forcing or thinking. The mind needs to be empty for it to really be "advanced."

 

The trouble is that people are often not sincere enough in their practice for the advanced work to arrive naturally. It generally takes a long time.

[dwai]

When one tries to mentally microadjust in many specific ways, one is more prone to blocking the flow of qi.

 

However, the more one works with the qi, the more the qi replenishes and fills and refines until it naturally spirals, naturally opens up the various orbits at the correct timings, etc.

 

When we say that such and such is the correct way, it may be true from some perspective, but often the best way of getting there is by following, not forcing or thinking. The mind needs to be empty for it to really be "advanced."

 

The trouble is that people are often not sincere enough in their practice for the advanced work to arrive naturally. It generally takes a long time.

 

I was just typing up a comment and then decided against it. But I would like to second this.

 

After a point, it is mainly about the energy flow and following the flow. It is not even about harmonizing with it. It is truly simple...because you feel the energy and follow it. The forms are needed till they are not needed imho.

[Michael Sternbach]

I think that the intricate techniques of advanced Yang style Taiji exist for good reasons.

[joeblast]

hehe....I view the techniques as inherently simple, which people deviate from in most intricate ways

[Daeluin]

I think that the intricate techniques of advanced Yang style Taiji exist for good reasons.

 

I don't think anyone is denying this.

 

Knowledge and techniques are like tools. The more tools we try to carry the more weighed down we can become. The purpose of these tools is the effects they help to evoke. These effects can happen without even needing the tools. It is up to us to find the proper balance.

 

Often on these forums we see the dogma of different schools come to conflict. Daoism ever transforms itself by merging with the various fixed attitudes it encounters. We can follow this model of simplicity by listening to the inner changes and flowing with them. It is when we refuse to let go of a set of tools that conflict arises between what those tools are doing and what the natural flow is doing. Sometimes attachment to a set of tools can help us break through, sometimes it holds us back. We need to listen inwardly to decide which direction is going to serve us best.

[beingnature]

Doing less and less until everything gets done.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Good Meditation is really simple, even Neidan.

It isn't the practice which is demanding or complicated, it is the understanding of the results of practice and how to make the best use of them.   The map is the complicated part, the territory just is what it is naturally, but if you don't know how to navigate the territory by reading the map correctly, you might fall in a swamp and die.

[Wayfarer]

To the OP:

 

Daoism has lost its way in my view and is doing things backwards, and this is why it seems to be over-complicated, here are some examples:

 

Cycling of the Waterwheel is a practice that breaks things down to very precise energetic positions e.g. draw energy up the spine to the Jade Pillow (back of head), take it through the brain, the Bright Hall, the Red Chamber, Earth Pot and so on to the Celestial Eye, breathe it along the Magpie Bridge (nose) and down blah blah blah until the spirit (dragon) and energy (tiger) copulate and form the Jade Child/ clean out the Lodging Place.  All very nice.  This is a little like describing how to drive a car to somebody with one key difference...you explain what the pedals do, the gear lever, the steering and so on however were it a completely natural process all that would be happening would be that an 'expert' would break down the systemic whole into specific parts, to explain what happens naturally.  With the waterwheel practice, all that happens is when we become settled, when our energy relaxes and our thinking stops, there is as a natural consequence a settling feeling and a letting go, until one day, if you are lucky, you will notice a presence there (described in the TTC V16, which is also a verse about the Waterwheel.  So, you can forget about Red Chambers and dragons, and just sit tranquilly allowing things to settle naturally.

 

Zuowang sitting meditation: or sitting and forgetting.  How can we ever forget that we are sitting if we are focussing on our breath, regulating its rhythm, concentrating on a particular spot, sitting on our favourite cushion until our feet get numb and then trying to forget.  As Doyan said, when sitting why not meditate, when meditating why not sit?  As above, allow tranquility into your day, let your energy and mind settle naturally, then it won't matter if you are sitting or standing, you will be meditating.

 

Finally, all this talk of attaining the Tao and not being able to attain it!  How confusing.  Again we are talking about a natural process.  A naturalness that is our Truth.  How could the Truth, if it is relevant to all things be complicated?  Of course it is simple.  When we are ignorant of our Truth (as an experience) we 'do', we practise until we think we are getting closer to knowing and experiencing it but we are already IT, it is like trying to practise to be a man, when you are one already but don't realise it, it is simply a matter of waking up to that fact.  To wake up to this fact, you need to bring stillness and calm into your day...again refer to V16 of the TTC or Be Still and Know that I am God...the Psalms.  The more settled you are, the more likely you will notice the presence within and around you, and see its endless stillness.  If you are filling your mind with Tigers, with sitting methods, with words how will you ever observe the endless calm within?

 

If you want to practise Tao (not Taoism) watch nature, notice the quietness, the calm, the stillness that is present, this is the open door to Presence, but a tree is Presence, a bird, a car...it is everywhere you are looking.  You see it already but don't recognise it.

 

When tranquility is in your 'now' there is no practice.  There is no sitting meditation, no waterwheel to cycle, no scripture to read...the only practice you need is to allow calmness into your now...then your energy settles naturally, your mind becomes less full, and ease enters your life as a flow.

 

Beautiful and simple huh?  Your intuition is right...let it be your teacher   

Edited August 22, 2016 by Wayfarer

[beingnature]

Wayfarer: Very beautiful post!