TM is not real meditation, it is more like hypnosis

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

 

 

Therefore, the AYP deep meditation is also more like hypnosis, below the critical factor.

 

Very interesting..

 

Comments start at 59:00 about TM but the whole presentation is a good introduction to basic theory..

Edited August 20, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[Karl]

That was my conclusion. I changed my method of meditation to awareness during the final year before I left. It never occured to me at that time that I had altered it, but, looking back I remember the change. To some extents AYP says to do so, but there's a problem with marginal hypnotic state caused by the mantra repetition of Ayam. I stopped using it, but, in a sense that's what Yogani tells practitioners to do. Unfortunately I don't think Yogani knows what he is doing and has cobbled together TM and Buddhist meditation trying to make them doubly powerful-which is why he calls it Advanced.

 

I have made the point which the lecturer makes. Meditation is to cultivate the mind. It is to sharpen reason, to decrease emotional response, to increase cognitive power.

 

Funnily enough I'm having a PM with Sionnach about this very subject and why meditation is a useful part of living as a human being. However, it's a bit like learning to strengthen the body without application. Making the mind knife sharp is wasted if we do not develop reason and logic at the same rate. A strong body is necessary, but useless if it cannot fetch water, feed itself and plan ahead (planning was one of the things the lecturer strongly emphasised and this needs the practitioner to develop his logic and reason actively, not only passively by meditation).

 

In one of my later posts I was told that I had uttered an ad hominem when pointing out that practitioners needed to wake up. I told them it was not an insult, that it was a plea. People are asleep and have stopped using their minds they just haven't realised it. Your posting goes some way towards addressing this plea.

 

Notice that he says that we cannot heal the world - or at least not yet - that the effect is purely to improve the mind of the practitioner. There is no mention of no-mind or no-thing. Although he uses the word selfless, this is in connection purely with the meditation practice. In my book I describe it as 'surrender' but it must not be maintained throughout the normal day, only during the short practices. Remember that Yogani did say to do less practice, ground more, to self pace. He didn't say go around in a state of soporific trance. The problem is that Yogani found himself so desperate to prove his technique was of revolutionary importance that he began to throw out anything that might appear to contradict it. A catch 22.

 

The guy from the Max Planck institute said that scientists cannot find a seat of self in the brain. I have long held that view. Consciousness is axiomatic, there is no place it exists materially, but it is existent. It has an identity and so has the self. Scientists will never find it, as they will never find the cause of existence. They are axiomatic corollaries. Existence is identity; consciousness is identification.

 

However, where I disagree is with the understanding of perception and existence. There are levels of existence inside the hypnotised mind. It is wrong to say that existence is an illusion, but I can see why someone would make that conclusion. If one was viewing a film which seemed real then this isn't existence but illusion. It is necessary to come out of the cinema and see that it was only an illusion.

 

This is why where am I ? How do I know it ? What should I do ? Is important, because it liberates from the transcendental state of illusion. The problem with it is that people have not developed the mental focus to enable them to utilise this rope to pull themselves from the slime. Their minds are flabby, they are completely distracted because our education/ political system keeps them in a state of weakness. They cannot lift their heads from the pillows because the state has convinced them there is no necessity for them to do so. A lot of this new age stuff is aimed at the same thing, to switch off/drop out. Just like the body, the cortex that is not exercised grows weak. Even when presented with the rope to pull itself clear, it has no the strength to do so and goes back to what it knows. What's easy. Just switch off, tune out, drop out. No need for effort, just relax, things take care of themselves. Stay as sheep, docile, harmless and ready to be shorn of wool.

 

We cannot easily learn to use logic and reason as tools of skill without the will/strength to use them. We can't just get the mind sharp and ignore the skills/tools. It requires both. Strengthen sharpen the brain to high awareness, take a course in logic, build the base of skill with the weapon. Practice but strengthen through correct nourishment and exercise.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Karl

[roger]

Hi TI.

 

I respect what you're saying, but many people have had great results from practicing TM. If you judge a technique by its effects, it's hard to deny its effectiveness.

 

Nine months after I started practicing TM, I easily made the following changes:

 

I quit deliberately thinking (I use the word deliberately because I still had thoughts, but I had a meditative mind all throughout the day), I became a vegetarian, I quit smoking, quit drinking, stopped pacing around my house as a way of dealing with stress, stopped driving my car around town at night as an escape, quit consuming caffeine, gave up all forms of sexual pleasure (I wouldn't even look at women sexually), changed my sleeping habits, stopped cussing, started keeping my room clean, and stopped listening to the radio (not that there's anything wrong with listening to the radio - I just felt that it usually robbed me of my peace).

 

I made all of these changes with very little effort. I doubt that I would have been able to do it without the help of TM, but in total honesty, I do admit that it's possible - I just think very unlikely.

[Jetsun]

TM is one of the most studied meditation techniques and it has been proven to have a lot of life benefits such as increased health and brain function, which are pretty useful effects, yet it doesn't mean it is a technique which leads to awakening or enlightenment.

 

In terms of hypnosis you could say the waking state is a kind of trance state and there are positive and useful trance states which can be created with things like TM and many other meditation techniques, but I dont think you can break a trance using another trance, all you can do is improve the quality of the state.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Jetsun

[bax44]

when I started meditation I used a mantra for like the first 2 months. I think it was useful in the beginning when my mind was going crazy just trying to sit still for 5 minutes, but after a time I sort of naturally dropped that and focused on the breath. I can see how it might lead to a more trance like state as opposed to gaining clarity, but I see people have reported decent results with it. Just wasn't for me.

[silent thunder]

It still surprises me that those along spiritual paths, can ever say with any emphatic certainty that there is 'one' method that is 'the way'.  This applies in reverse to all potential methods that don't resonate with a person, that they thus decry as not having any value for anyone.

 

Such certainty in my own experience had usually been a marker of where I have more work to do within my own sphere.

[Karl]

Yes, the hypnotic states are lovely. If you are aiming for tranquility, then they suit. I had a very blissful 3 years on AYP and took away the manic depression which had shadowed me from my early teens. It stopped me flying into rages and sudden dark holes of self loathing and depression.

 

However, this isn't enlightenment, it's like methadone for a heroin user. It's the 12 step programme for an alcoholic. It stabilises the ship by plugging the holes in the hull. However it doesn't fix the ship, it's effectively sea worthy and floating. The day to day maintenance gets done and it copes with the storms and lulls, but it isn't going anywhere. It's engines run, it's rudder works, but the radar/guidance is off and there is no where to go, so no need to turn the propellers and steer anywhere. I expect for some this is such a relief from years of purgatory that it's sufficient.

 

In the video it talks about awareness and here is where the problems begin. As awareness expands the ship begins to see it is simply floundering as its radar comes on line, it is in the middle of nowhere and there are dangers all over. The reaction is to switch everything off and go back to the trance state. Yet, now the glimpse of the dangers is known it becomes more difficult to forget about it. The temptation is to keep switching on the instruments for fear of missing something, then switching them off for fear of finding something. We are stuck between wanting to know reality and being terrified of knowing reality. The need to know reality can become its own pressure and create its own problems. The sticking plaster of TM only goes so far. If you can't stop peeping then it's time to move on.

 

Real Buddhists, I'm talking about practising monks are like the epicurists of the past. They work for years to bring awareness to a high point, but live in the safety of a commune that shelters them from the external realities of the world. I don't see this as living, it is hiding. It is a fully functioning ship in dry dock. The radars and navigation are on, but there are no dangers and no requirement to navigate anywhere. I suppose the idea is that these monks are then released fully trained and fully aware into the outside world, but my experience, having met a few, is that the training has stunted them, instead of remaining aware, they to move into TM protection mode. They live in self contained bubbles of their own making and are as fragile as anyone else. There is also a tendency to lack real independence, they remain part of a group/cult all within a hierarchy which reduces individualism to a minimum. At other times, apart from their robes, they have become just like every other mixed up Westener-some even more so than average. They start drinking, womanising and grifting.

 

The problem is how to make an individual accept reality as it is. To accept their own fears and doubts as they are. To flower as unique, independent identies devoid of the need to shelter. There is some, almost automatic sense of a need to belong and to conform. It's as if we have an instinct to act as members of a tribe and submit to a leaders will. There appears to be a necessity to shut down our own awareness and subscribe to the leader. This is a stone age hang over that we have picked up over millennia. No doubt it was necessary pre industrial revolution, but no longer. The only thing we fear is death and each other, we aren't waiting to be picked off by sabre tooth tigers, cold, hot, lack of shelter, food, water or accident. Yet we still live like we did back then and we still subdue our awareness despite there no longer being any necessity to do so. We can act autonomously now and trade with others value for value. No one needs a tribal leader anymore, we don't need a specific village, we are global.

[Karl]

It still surprises me that those along spiritual paths, can ever say with any emphatic certainty that there is 'one' method that is 'the way'.  This applies in reverse to all potential methods that don't resonate with a person, that they thus decry as not having any value for anyone.

 

Such certainty in my own experience had usually been a marker of where I have more work to do within my own sphere.

Isn't that simply because everyone is at different stages ? There is also a danger of someone stating 'one way' and creating a cult-even when they didn't intend it.

 

As I see it, people on forums such as this are like chicks in a nest. They broke their shells and are feeling vulnerable and scared. Some want to crawl back into the shell, others want to remain where they are but not feel so scared. In the end we cannot really stay in the shell, pretend we are still in the shell, or ignore our predicaments. We must come to terms with who we are, where we are, then make the leap from the nest. It takes time. The nest offers safety so why the hell jump out of it ?

[bax44]

Yeah Karl, I think youre describing the "lower brain" a remnant from our beginnings that in todays age is out-of-date. Yet most  of us are still running our machines from this space. I think what effective meditation-bodywork-and I will put things like the trivium in here as well-  can do is take one more towards a different mode of functioning where these pulls of the old brain circuits begin to lose their grip.

[Karl]

Yeah Karl, I think youre describing the "lower brain" a remnant from our beginnings that in todays age is out-of-date. Yet most  of us are still running our machines from this space. I think what effective meditation-bodywork-and I will put things like the trivium in here as well-  can do is take one more towards a different mode of functioning where these pulls of the old brain circuits begin to lose their grip.

I think so. It's not possible to prescribe a one route that will do it. I'm flying now, I see the issue, but it doesn't help, I cannot say how I got the courage, or the strength to fly. I can see a whole process which was partly conscious and partly unconscious. When in trance things appeared before me like magic. Now I see that it was not magic, but believing it was at the time wasn't an impedement either. It's frustrating in a sense to know, but seemingly be one of the few to know.

 

It's not as if everyone is in such a predicament either. My wife is totally adjusted, it is only me that was the oddity. The thing is, here is the problem, the people on this forum are highly intelligent, the state doesn't require highly intelligent people that are individualists. Our education system is designed to homogenetise the population. The result is the bright ones get squashed- their families who are also products of the same system can become maladjusted and irrational too, then take that out on their children. We aren't expected to climb out of our boxes, we are expected to conform, but we keep slipping out and banging our heads on the box edges, we feel the box even though we try our best not to. It's this conflict that drives us mad. The brighter we are the crazier we become.

[bax44]

Crazier by their standards indeed. Nowadays I don't even watch the news much anymore-but when I do its usually as an exercise for humor. I tune in to say a presidential speech by trump or Hillary or Obama and turn the volume down. I watch and after a few minutes realize that their faces look old, l- worn-out,their eyes are dull. and first theres humor at how seriously we all take them and their absurd facial contortions that resemble them taking a shit, along with a little bit of sadness for them. If these are the ones that are considered  "normal" and who we are supposed to be looking up to, then I want no part of it.

 

Anyways Im getting off topic, sorry guys.

[thelerner]

I find guided meditations and hypnosis to be crutches or perhaps aids in meditation.  Fun and useful in the beginning, especially to get a taste for concentrated relaxed focus, but ultimately have to be removed or not made the main focus of ones practice.  Good as an occasional supplement but you have to be able to get into state and just as importantly be on friendly basis with your deep quiet mind. 

[Karl]

Crazier by their standards indeed. Nowadays I don't even watch the news much anymore-but when I do its usually as an exercise for humor. I tune in to say a presidential speech by trump or Hillary or Obama and turn the volume down. I watch and after a few minutes realize that their faces look old, l- worn-out,their eyes are dull. and first theres humor at how seriously we all take them and their absurd facial contortions that resemble them taking a shit, along with a little bit of sadness for them. If these are the ones that are considered  "normal" and who we are supposed to be looking up to, then I want no part of it.

 

Anyways Im getting off topic, sorry guys.

 

Yes, it's doing anyone any good except perhaps the lazy farmers who are milking the cattle. I have purpose in continually pushing politically/spiritually towards freedom. It has to be both. A generation with political freedom, but without spiritual freedom would likely no cope. It's like sending a pet onto the Savanna, it wouldn't last long. It's easier to be spiritually free, but it comes with responsibilities. For now it is realised that to get the political freedom will require the spiritual freedom first and our society is set up to repress that aspect, indeed to punish it. Getting spiritual freedom prior to political freedom is hard. People prefer to find ways to blank out the walls of the cell, but to know and touch the walls, to see how strong and thick they are yet not to flinch requires a calm and reasoning mind. The brighter the prisoner, the more oppressive the walls, the harder the eyelids are squeezed to block out that reality. How can full awareness be encouraged. It's like waking up and finding yourself buried alive, but doing so without any panic ?

 

I see the problem, I'm empathetic enough to know the feeling of terror it can invoke. Who can cope and who can't ? It's not fair to drag people awake who might be led to do so and be shocked by it and its impossible to awaken those who sub consciously know they have no intention of enduring reality. It's a puzzle. It can be done, it's easy to do, but once out there's no going back and for those who have had tough lives, that reality might well push them back to a worse condition.

[Karl]

I find guided meditations and hypnosis to be crutches or perhaps aids in meditation.  Fun and useful in the beginning, especially to get a taste for concentrated relaxed focus, but ultimately have to be removed or not made the main focus of ones practice.  Good as an occasional supplement but you have to be able to get into state and just as importantly be on friendly basis with your deep quiet mind.

 

What is the purpose of your practice ? In AYP we were expected to have no purpose, it was to be done like cleaning teeth, but there was a promise of a freedom from suffering, the arrival of the witness. There were aspirations even when Yogani specifically said we should have no aspirations.

 

I changed my meditation by hallucinating the mantra rather than repeating it, instead I cultivated internal awareness, to watch my thoughts and this translated into every day life. I became acutely aware of how I was thinking not just what. This was the rise of the promised witness, but, beyond that it was interesting to be so consciously aware, unless my intention was to walk around in a state of introspective stupor, it was useless. If we do control f on our computers we can delete all the rubbish and then reinstall a clean program, but we can't do that on ourselves, we are stuck in a limbo with meditation, it gives us access to the main frame but it doesn't relate to extrospective existent reality. We have to do that work ourselves and the brain doesn't really come with a manual on how.

 

So the ground rules are where am I ? How do I know it ? What do I do ? This is the catalyst for restoring full working order, but not until the main frame is able to appropriate and integrate the new information. If the existing information was mis integrated, or disintegrated, then we must know how to reassemble it so it does work. Meditation provides the tools to approach the task, but not to perform the task. Continually wiping and reinstalling the same program doesn't do anything, neither does thinking we have changed something without actually doing so. This is ignorance in the first and evasion in the second.

[joeblast]

given the route I took into meditation, I always viewed TM as superfluous

 

to each his own, and all that, but (for me) its firmly in the bucket of "trying to recreate outcomes via artificially conjured mindstates" as opposed to transforming the base timing itself via the neurological outflows of breathwork & focused awareness.

Edited August 20, 2016 by joeblast

[Aetherous]

Isn't meditation upon a mantra just a form of samatha meditation? I guess if the attention wanders away from the mantra, then the mind goes into the hypnotic state...but the point of doing it is to train the mind onto the object of meditation.

[thelerner]

What is the purpose of your practice ? In AYP we were expected to have no purpose, it was to be done like cleaning teeth, but there was a promise of a freedom from suffering, the arrival of the witness. There were aspirations even when Yogani specifically said we should have no aspirations.

My practice used to have purpose and goals.  These days, none.  I just sit.  Sometimes I'll  count my breaths to 100.  It takes a while, then let it go after that.  Just sit in emptiness, seems to have improved my golf game a bit.  Like my life in general I give lip service to goals and purpose, but mostly I lay back or let my feet carry me where they will. 

 

In the morning I'll often listen to a guided meditation.  Maybe a yoga nidra or something adventurous and trippy, or something that keeps me in the lovely twilight between sleep and wakefulness; sometimes I'll give my body a few instructions to heal, normalize, rejuvenate.. kind of stuff. 

 

I'm slowly getting back into Wim Hof method.  Daily cold showers.  Telling myself if I want wakefulness and strong immune system, I must push the lever to the coldest setting.  In truth being summer its nowhere near as cold as it gets in winter, where its achingly cold.  Next month I'll add the breathing.   The deep rapid breathing isn't meditative, but I consider the long empty holds to be; a crazy meditation cycle in 80 to 200 seconds.  

Edited August 20, 2016 by thelerner

[joeblast]

Isn't meditation upon a mantra just a form of samatha meditation? I guess if the attention wanders away from the mantra, then the mind goes into the hypnotic state...but the point of doing it is to train the mind onto the object of meditation.

I hate to always plug a single source on something, but Zen & the Brain has a good take on this one as well - reinforced by the other studies that showed prolonged outbreaths being associated with inhibitory neural firing (think yin resonance) was indeed a similar outcome of the meditation. 

 

I guess for me it winds up boiling down to function and efficiency and amplitudes of outcomes.

 

reminds me of some of max's tales about the american indian elders' propensity to take great care in considering which words were used, and as few as possible were used to express it on top of that...speech expends energy, and if maximal efficiency is concerned, the difference is clear where those criteria are the main ones.

[Boy]

That was a really nice video, TI! Thanks for sharing. 

[Fu_doggy]

A lot of this depends on a person's definition of meditation.   Also, someone made the point there is not "one way" to do this.  

 

Like Learner, I like Wim Hof Method.  I've been practicing for about 18 months now.  As he stated, the meditative states come in small snippets when the breath is held.  I will say though, what I've experienced during the breath holds is quite different, also quite pleasing.  Wim says the meditative portion of WHM can be profound.  It's not standard meditation, however, I'm enjoying the journey.  

 

Another part of Wim's method is "cold therapy", which I have also been doing.  A few months ago while on vacation I went into an icy pool of water formed by melted snow....and I didn't feel the cold.  Before going in I expected to feel the cold, with the ability to tolerate it.  But fact is, I didn't feel it.  I stated in about 15 minutes, then got out.  This quite surprised me.

 

Never tried TM.  I occasionally make some runs at other types of meditation, including Dr. Easwaran's "passage meditation", but WHM is every day.    

[bax44]

wim hof method is definitely cool. I did the whole 10 weeks. seems now even when I take an ice bath occasionally I can pretty much calm myself down easily and my body can sit there for awhile without freaking out, so it seems the technique made lasting changes. the breathing can definitely induce some "high" states, but I only do it occasionally now for a pick me up as it was exhausting after a while to do it everyday(of course I have a chronic condition so Im not exactly a great example). but Id def recommend people give it a shot. great for the body and mind.

Edited August 21, 2016 by bax44

[Tibetan_Ice]

What is the purpose of your practice ? In AYP we were expected to have no purpose, it was to be done like cleaning teeth, but there was a promise of a freedom from suffering, the arrival of the witness. There were aspirations even when Yogani specifically said we should have no aspirations.

 

I changed my meditation by hallucinating the mantra rather than repeating it, instead I cultivated internal awareness, to watch my thoughts and this translated into every day life. I became acutely aware of how I was thinking not just what. This was the rise of the promised witness, but, beyond that it was interesting to be so consciously aware, unless my intention was to walk around in a state of introspective stupor, it was useless.

 

 

 

Wow, Karl. You have come close. But due to lack of instruction and direction, you turned back too soon. You focused on the content of conceptualization (thoughts) and even on the arising and passing of thoughts and you were very close.

 

It is hard to realize that the content of thoughts is irrelevant at this point in the meditation. Did you notice that for each thought that was viewed it had its own witness (subject)?

 

You have called your watching of thoughts introspection, which is sort of correct, except that introspection is turning your attention back around to the witness or subject that is watching the object (thoughts).

 

Had you learned to view your thoughts dispassionately, like an old man watching someone else's children at play in the park, each thought and corresponding witness (subject) would have dissolved, leaving an open space of sheer luminous awareness. That space is not a subject, it is called rigpa in Dzogchen. If you train to remain in that space, you will attain buddhahood.

 

Here is the same topic but in different words by the Dalai Lama..

 

From https://www.amazon.com/Heart-Meditation-Discovering-Innermost-Awareness/dp/1559394536

 

THE VIEW, THE MULTITUDINOUS GREAT EXPANSE

 

The view of reality is the buddha nature beyond the proliferations of dualistic conceptuality. Both the Old Translation School and the New Translation Schools of Tibetan Buddhism speak of the view as the pristine wisdom of clear light, the matrix-of-One-Gone-to-Bliss. The pristine wisdom of clear light itself is not independent and inherently existent but is devoid of conceptual proliferations—an entity pure from the beginning with a spontaneous nature. This pure spontaneous matrix is the basis of appearance of cyclic existence and nirvana, and thus the view itself is the great expanse from which all the multiplications of phenomena dawn and into which all are withdrawn. Thus Patrul Rinpoche says, “The view is the multitudinous great expanse (Longchen Rabjam).”

 

In this way, he speaks of the view as “the multitudinous great expanse,” which is the meaning of the name of his indirect source-lama, Longchen Rabjam. The view to be meditated on is the naturally pure buddha nature called the “matrix-of-One-Gone-to-Bliss,” pervading the great vastness, or great expanse, the sphere of reality. The knowledge that all appearances of cyclic existence and nirvana are complete in this equal reality is the view itself—hence the multitudinous, infinite, great expanse, the vastness.

 

The view of the Great Completeness is said to be beyond mind, but with respect to how it is expressed in words, here “view” mainly refers not to what is viewed but to the viewing consciousness. Thus, it refers to “the viewing subject” not “the view as the object viewed.” Still, we must remember that such terms may not be relevant, since the view here is beyond mind, and “subject and object” are bound within the sphere of mind.

 

All phenomena are contained within the great sphere of innermost awareness, the basis from which all phenomena dawn—the foundation of appearance. From between foundation and appearance, innermost awareness is the foundation, and its vibration is appearance. This, called “All-good innermost awareness,” itself is the view, the multitudinous great expanse.

 

MEDITATION, LIGHT RAYS OF KNOWLEDGE AND EMPATHY

 

Having engendered this view, one spontaneously generates compassion for sentient beings who, due to ignorance, do not understand this perspective. Thus Patrul Rinpoche says, “The meditation is light rays of knowledge and empathy (Khyentse Oser).” “Light rays of knowledge and empathy” is the very meaning of Khyentse Oser’s name. Within the distinction between innermost awareness and the vibration of innermost awareness, the vibration of innermost awareness includes eight types of spontaneous appearance. One of these is all-pervasive compassion—light rays of knowledge and empathy, and from meditation on it, spontaneous factors of leapover, or spontaneous progress, emerge, whereas the multitudinous great expanse is the practice of breakthrough, essential purity.

 

Upon being introduced to the natural face of innermost awareness in its nakedness, if one is able to dwell in the expanse of innermost awareness by way of fundamental mindfulness, which is a natural innate mindfulness, these spontaneous factors emerge of themselves in meditation. “Nakedness” here means that the obstructive pollution by conceptuality has been removed—conceptuality being like clothing that has been taken off, leaving the naked body, bare awareness.

 

When experience of innermost awareness emerges, fundamental mindfulness comes along with it, fulfilling the practice of meditation, at which point the practitioner can conclusively decide that what is wanted, liberation, does not pass beyond the expanse of innermost awareness, and what is to be discarded, cyclic existence, does not pass beyond the vibration of innermost awareness. Thereby, both of these—good and bad, nirvana and cyclic existence, hopes and fears—all of these are conclusively seen as the sport, the vibration, and the effervescence of innermost awareness.

 

BEHAVIOR, THE SHOOT OF A VICTOR

 

As long as one remains without fluctuating from experience of this unhindered expanse of innermost awareness, no matter what behavior one enacts, it has a single character, like the taste of a single flavor. In this vein, Patrul Rinpoche says, “The behavior is the shoot of a Victor (Gyalwe Nyugu).” “Shoot of a Victor” is the very meaning of Gyalwe Nyugu’s name. Due to having a compassionate motivation and penetrating wisdom, you engage in altruistic behavior to help others; these altruistically motivated deeds infused with knowledge of reality are the shoot that turns into a buddha.

 

You need to bring forth the practice of innermost awareness in its own naked state and meditate within that. When you gain such an experiential view, it is not necessary to search for meditation or behavior outside of its scope. When you maintain practice from within the sphere of this view, it is said that

- The view is left as an unmovable mountain.

- Meditation is left as an ocean. No matter how many waves there are on the surface, the depths remain stable. When you have been introduced to, and have identified, innermost awareness in experience, then like sun and sunlight, fundamental mindfulness is engendered within it. At this time, you do not need mindfulness achieved from exertion or activity; mindfulness is innate.

- Behavior is left as appearance. When you have identified innermost awareness and have experienced this view, then from this perspective, whatever conceptions or objects appear, you do not follow after and get caught up in them but remain vividly within the context of innermost awareness such that it is not necessary to make distinctions between the types of behaviors that are to be adopted and those that are to be discarded, for you are beyond achieving and stopping, hoping and fearing.

 

If you as a practitioner are able to effectively practice this type of view, meditation, and behavior in the proper way, you have an opportunity to attain buddhahood in this lifetime; it will not be difficult. “For one who practices in this way, there is no hesitation about buddhahood in one life.”

 

 

Oh, and thanks for the comments about AYP. I find that I agree with them.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[Cheshire Cat]

It's interestingly to notice that, according to the author Kosta Danaos, the Mopai method of cultivation is centred around a trance state at the threshold of sleep. According to the teacher in the video, this would be a bad worst method .

[Tibetan_Ice]

It's interestingly to notice that, according to the author Kosta Danaos, the Mopai method of cultivation is centred around a trance state at the threshold of sleep. According to the teacher in the video, this would be a bad worst method .

That is an interesting statement.

The video is about where the potential for awakening exists with relation to brain wave activity levels. From your statement about Mopai, it would seem that Mopai is something else, not a tool for awakening...

 

I know nothing about Mopai but I would guess from viewing the JC videos and the heated debates here on it (pun intended) that it is a form of energetic practice.

 

I played in a band in my younger years that was a Hawaiian act which included a hypnotist show. The hypnotist would hypnotize people, put them between two chairs (one to support the head, the other to support the feet), tell them their bodies were stiff like steel and then he would sit on them! The hypnotist weighed about 200 lbs! After, most people were ok but in a few cases some complained about pain.

 

The point is that it is possible to hypnotize people and have them perform superhuman feats so maybe Mopai is tapping into that aspect or some form of self hypnosis.

 

Self hypnosis has its value as Roger attested to in his post, but it seems to be on the other end of the scale concerning placement in brain wave activity with regards to realization/awakening/enlightenment.

 

Actually, according to Daskalos, the physical etheric double is super powerful and is capable of unimaginable feats. He supported learning how to manipulate it for the benefit of healing..

Edited August 22, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[joeblast]

It's interestingly to notice that, according to the author Kosta Danaos, the Mopai method of cultivation is centred around a trance state at the threshold of sleep.

That's just another in a long series of poor translations, imho.  Not all that helpful to describe what a cultivator in deep meditation looks like to an external observer.