TM is not real meditation, it is more like hypnosis

[Tibetan_Ice]

Please, let's not turn this thread into another Mopai crash and burn.

 

(Not pointing at anyone, it's just that the word Mopai seems to be a grenade )

Edited August 22, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[Karl]

Wow, Karl. You have come close. But due to lack of instruction and direction, you turned back too soon. You focused on the content of conceptualization (thoughts) and even on the arising and passing of thoughts and you were very close.

It is hard to realize that the content of thoughts is irrelevant at this point in the meditation. Did you notice that for each thought that was viewed it had its own witness (subject)?

You have called your watching of thoughts introspection, which is sort of correct, except that introspection is turning your attention back around to the witness or subject that is watching the object (thoughts).

Had you learned to view your thoughts dispassionately, like an old man watching someone else's children at play in the park, each thought and corresponding witness (subject) would have dissolved, leaving an open space of sheer luminous awareness. That space is not a subject, it is called rigpa in Dzogchen. If you train to remain in that space, you will attain buddhahood.

Here is the same topic but in different words by the Dalai Lama..

From https://www.amazon.com/Heart-Meditation-Discovering-Innermost-Awareness/dp/1559394536

 

Oh, and thanks for the comments about AYP. I find that I agree with them.

I didn't turn back, nor give up. This is why I say that meditation can be an important exercise for some people. If the mind won't settle and if we are prone to emotional upheaval, then it's sometimes necessary to drop an anchor. Should those conditions manifest again then I would retrench, but it's unnecessary once the emotions are subordinate to reason.

[joeblast]

Please, let's not turn this thread into another Mopai crash and burn.

 

(Not pointing at anyone, it's just that the word Mopai seems to be a grenade )

Understood, agreed, but poor english "it is like"....conveys as if from the perspective of an external observer - anyone who's got the goods always stresses the focus of awareness somewhere in their material.  Oh dear, that doesnt sound quite right either

[joeblast]

I didn't turn back, nor give up. This is why I say that meditation can be an important exercise for some people. If the mind won't settle and if we are prone to emotional upheaval, then it's sometimes necessary to drop an anchor. Should those conditions manifest again then I would retrench, but it's unnecessary once the emotions are subordinate to reason.

Some testing has shown that the arising of those impulses lasts roughly 50 seconds and will die down without furtherance from the subject.  So - if that habit energy is to be diminished, then a new habit energy needs to be created.  Breathwork is a good one   Its why putting the full focus of awareness into the feeeeeeeelings of all the breath movement is the best way to harness the awareness, calm the mind.  If the operation is noncommutative, then the opposite wont cancel it out, and that seems to be the case with a lot of habituations.  This is why there needs to be a new pattern established for the energy - it is the only real way to suffocate a pattern - establish something new that takes its place and harnesses the same base energy as the old - but in a more productive direction.

[Cheshire Cat]

That's just another in a long series of poor translations, imho.  Not all that helpful to describe what a cultivator in deep meditation looks like to an external observer.

 

The quote I'm referring to was supposedly made by John Chang himself to describe precisely what mopai meditation is from a practical viewpoint.

He even says explicitly that you mustn't be aware of yourself to be in that form of meditation.

It looks to precise -as a description- to be a poor translation imho.

 

I don't want to  act as MPG, but I gogleed it: it's page 81, magus of java.

 

That is an interesting statement.

The video is about where the potential for awakening exists with relation to brain wave activity levels. From your statement about Mopai, it would seem that Mopai is something else, not a tool for awakening...

 

I know nothing about Mopai but I would guess from viewing the JC videos and the heated debates here on it (pun intended) that it is a form of energetic practice.

 

[...]

 

I agree.

 

Also, it appears that this form of buddhist meditation was actually "re-invented" in recent times  ( https://vividness.live/2011/07/07/theravada-reinvents-meditation/ ).

[Karl]

Some testing has shown that the arising of those impulses lasts roughly 50 seconds and will die down without furtherance from the subject.  So - if that habit energy is to be diminished, then a new habit energy needs to be created.  Breathwork is a good one   Its why putting the full focus of awareness into the feeeeeeeelings of all the breath movement is the best way to harness the awareness, calm the mind.  If the operation is noncommutative, then the opposite wont cancel it out, and that seems to be the case with a lot of habituations.  This is why there needs to be a new pattern established for the energy - it is the only real way to suffocate a pattern - establish something new that takes its place and harnesses the same base energy as the old - but in a more productive direction.

It isn't for nothing that we tell agitated people to 'breathe' Tapping works pretty well.

[joeblast]

The quote I'm referring to was supposedly made by John Chang himself to describe precisely what mopai meditation is from a practical viewpoint.

He even says explicitly that you mustn't be aware of yourself to be in that form of meditation.

It looks to precise -as a description- to be a poor translation imho.

 

I don't want to  act as MPG, but I gogleed it: it's page 81, magus of java.

I understand the viewpoint, but having experientially gotten there and having drilled out the correlations to neural activity, what the physical must do and what the awareness must do, and what aware of "yourself" may or may not mean there...and what happens when you "become aware" of certain things and what happens if those things are of a physical nature, a neural nature, or otherwise -  I still assert that one who interprets this as such is going off the trail and into the underbrush.  If one's awareness is not as sharp as can be, then the energetics of the situation falters....sooner or later.

 

But I think we're only staying on topic  at this point in relation to my similar criticisms of newfangled interpretations of certain things.

[Tibetan_Ice]

The quote I'm referring to was supposedly made by John Chang himself to describe precisely what mopai meditation is from a practical viewpoint.

He even says explicitly that you mustn't be aware of yourself to be in that form of meditation.

It looks to precise -as a description- to be a poor translation imho.

 

I don't want to act as MPG, but I gogleed it: it's page 81, magus of java.

 

 

I agree.

 

Also, it appears that this form of buddhist meditation was actually "re-invented" in recent times ( https://vividness.live/2011/07/07/theravada-reinvents-meditation/ ).

Well, I would have to disagree with David Chapman there. Many text sources have originated from before the last century, in a sense bypassing modern revisionism...

 

Interesting link, by the way. David should really read Dipa Ma and the Visudhimagga before throwing them into his scholarly analysis.

 

But it was amazing to read a very long discussion of most of my books.. What an interesting recent historical perspective.

[rex]

Isn't meditation upon a mantra just a form of samatha meditation? I guess if the attention wanders away from the mantra, then the mind goes into the hypnotic state...but the point of doing it is to train the mind onto the object of meditation.

Yes and no. The mechanics of recitation requiring mindfulness and awareness are but the mantra itself will plug into particular qualities. Arguably mantra recitation is a good counter to the danger of developing a cold almost demonic clinicalism which denigrates the value of emotions.

[Karl]

Yes and no. The mechanics of recitation requiring mindfulness and awareness are but the mantra itself will plug into particular qualities. Arguably mantra recitation is a good counter to the danger of developing a cold almost demonic clinicalism which denigrates the value of emotions.

I found it useful to hallucinate the mantra but cultivate a feeling of universal love by surrender to something greater. It develops an outgoing sense of good which feels something like a love transmitting mast. Hallucinating the mantra removes the mechanical aspect but develops awareness, the stirring of the emotions creates a feeling of universal well being which moves the focus from 'I'. I'm not sure how practical it is to copy that approach.

[allinone]

Isn't meditation upon a mantra just a form of samatha meditation? I guess if the attention wanders away from the mantra, then the mind goes into the hypnotic state...but the point of doing it is to train the mind onto the object of meditation.

 

whatever we do is mantra- if mantra is understood as repetitive action what doesn't require attention or guidance. Saying words out or humming is mantra but what's important is to catch the wave in order to empty the mind. You can awoke a pattern by seeing something then need to absorb it or something to attain 8 fold path right concentration.

[allinone]

something for semen-retention-guys:

 

around 21.00 min to vid: lust is arisen then judgment is suspended.

[allinone]

immortality=mantra with earth achieved?

[rex]

I found it useful to hallucinate the mantra but cultivate a feeling of universal love by surrender to something greater. It develops an outgoing sense of good which feels something like a love transmitting mast. Hallucinating the mantra removes the mechanical aspect but develops awareness, the stirring of the emotions creates a feeling of universal well being which moves the focus from 'I'. I'm not sure how practical it is to copy that approach.

If this approach can get someone to develop positive mind states that facilitate sanity, altruism and a sense of responsibility then why not? It's all good. Another approach to mantra recitation is not to deliberately cultivate any emotion, sensibility or feeling at all, just relaxing into the flow allowing whatever quality to arise spontaneously.

[redcairo]

Nine months after I started practicing TM, I easily made the following changes:

 

I quit deliberately thinking ... I became a vegetarian, I quit smoking, quit drinking, stopped pacing around my house as a way of dealing with stress, stopped driving my car around town at night as an escape, quit consuming caffeine, gave up all forms of sexual pleasure (I wouldn't even look at women sexually), changed my sleeping habits, stopped cussing, started keeping my room clean, and stopped listening to the radio

 

 

Good God! I'll be certain to avoid TM at all costs!

 

I'm teasing.

 

I trained in TM, circa... 1991 I think it was. The practice seemed fine. The induction process is ridiculous, it's more religious than religions, more litigious-threat than scientology (ok maybe nothing trumps them) and the social group is a cult, but oh well, so are most all religions I suppose.

 

At least they're nice to each other. Mostly. I worked closely with a few people very into this and their extended network, as our biz had transferred from the Fairfield IA area and I ended up doing a number of independent things (point of sale setup and LANs and stuff, back in the days when it was all a bit novel) for some Ayurvedic clinic services and so on.

 

There's certainly a lovely focus on health, and on what the Hawai'ians might call the Ku, and sitting quietly and learning to relax and still your mind is a healthy thing for anybody I'm pretty sure.

 

I had a lovely session with a jyotish during that era as I recall. And one of the funniest moments ever. He spoke no english. His translator seemed decent. But at one point after a long silence of staring and pacing, like something intense or important, he bursts out with this rather impassioned speech that went on and on. I was expecting something truly epic by the time it was over. Then he and I both looked at the translator, who looked like a deer caught in headlights. Literally his mouth opened and nothing came out a few times, and then he finally stuttered, "You... you.... are a good -- ah... -- taxpayer!"       I looked at him, and he looked at me and then at the Jyotish, and the jyotish and I looked at each other, and then the three of us just cracked up and laughed like crazy. I laughed so hard for some reason that this probably did my well-being more good than a real translation would have. :-)

 

 

I seem to vaguely recall either reading, or hearing about a friend reading (sorry. Long time ago) a book that talked about some of the research done on TM as a practice. It basically said a whole list of very positive things for the practice.

 

But it did point out that also, the mantra could probably be 'roast beef' and work the same, that part of it wasn't relevant to the results at all.

 

I wasn't fond of the mental model the locals had that 'spacing out' was "transcending." Maybe it is but in my next life I hope enlightenment is more entertaining. That spacing or time-splicing is what I get when I am new to a certain level of energy such as the other meditations I do, but as I adapt and get more competent with it, that goes away and I start being more conscious and remembering better, rather than feeling like a few seconds passed in what turned out to be a long time. I used to get that in self-hypnosis but that was mostly if I let myself sit in deep state without direction.

 

I can't say it improved my health since I learned it just as I was going into an insane work-hours high-stress cycle which happened to be just after a problematic kundalini experience that did some damage (which = "reality weirdness") and potentially a couple of other significant interferences in any hope for a 'normal' life. But it was a good practice and perhaps I'd have been a lot worse off without it.

 

IMO anything that messes with your sex drive is not a positive no matter what is sold to recommend it. You don't have to be acting sexually to have a good sex drive. In human biology, sex drives are healthy. But some forms of vegetarianism can kill it pretty well, I recall reading that several of the historical people who were religiously anti-sex and wanted to tamp it down in everyone especially men pushed grains and not meats partly for that purpose (Kellogg and Graham for example). Yes, the men were more passive and that was considered a good thing. I don't consider it so, but that is just one of those everyone has a different perspective things I guess.

 

I had been a self-hypnosis enthusiast for many years at that point, so sitting down, centering, and dropping into what amounts to trance (one way or another, ends the same) was already pretty easy for me. But doing it just-to-do-it without any specific accomplish-this or work-on-this as part of the exercise was new. Getting over the rush to 'do' and just 'be' was actually a bit of work.

 

No matter what one calls it or why one does it, I think for anybody, learning to sit down and STFU is probably a very healthy thing on its own merits. I should do more of that and I'd probably do less swearing in acronyms. :-)

 

RC

[Taomeow]

People who don't get any real benefits from TM just went for the wrong abbreviation. 

 

Transcendental Meditation...  The long and pompous name, "transcendental," sounds as though it does begin with a "trance," on top of overselling whatever meditation it offers right off the bat.  What's in a name?  A sales pitch, in this case.  Caveat emptor.

 

Whereas the short, modest TaoMeow that is similarly abbreviated to TM promises nothing and puts no one in a trance (hopefully).  What's in a name?  A fondness for tao and for cats -- and I'm not selling either. 

 

So, choose which TM to trust, but choose wisely...

 

TM

[liminal_luke]

Yes, but what about the mantra?  May I suggest...meow, meow, meow...

[Taomeow]

I thought it was a secret!  I thought the master revealed it only to me!!....ow!!! 

[gendao]

Therefore, the AYP deep meditation is also more like hypnosis, below the critical factor.

Are meditation and hypnosis essentially 2 similar methods with similar goals (accessing "deeper and deeper" states of consciousness, etc)...or not?

Hi everyone,

 

Something else to thing about and to expand your knowledge. Utlra Depth. Writen by: Walter Sichort.

 

This technique has been research, and studied at Univerities and Patent Rights to Walter Sichort.

 

Let me begin by stating what I have found in my work with hypnosis in the past three decades. When pertaining to hypnosis, meditation, guided relaxation or altered states of consciousness, there is no such thing as higher, deeper, up, down, back or forward. These are terms that have been used in order to assist a person in his or her journey in "experiences in consciousness" and to connect with the higher-self. The person experiencing any of these is always going inward to a greater awareness.

 

Your Subconscious Mind is a major part of your higher self; it is within, not above or below you. Never expect to go higher or deeper to make this connection. In any altered state, and hypnosis is an altered state, no matter what anyone claims, you only enter into a more profound level of mind than what you normally operate with.

 

I have discovered a definite difference between the unconscious and Subconscious Minds. In my experience, the unconscious is the brain. It only carries out pre-installed and created programs. The brain is nothing more than the CPU (central processing unit) for the body. The Conscious Mind operates the brain through intent and choice only. The Subconscious Mind has the ability to reprogram the brain when given the opportunity. This is where more profound states of awareness and hypnosis come into play.

 

There is yet another part of the higher-self, and this is called the Superconscious. This is the storehouse or repository for all of a person's past lives. The Superconscious stores every past life which a person has ever experienced. The gatekeeper to the Superconscious is the Subconscious Mind of the person living today. To deliberately access information stored within the Superconscious, Ultra Depth® technology must be applied.

 

Ultra Depth® is a system that assists a person in achieving the most profound level of hypnosis ever known, the "Sichort State". It was discovered and developed by Walter A. Sichort, Sr., more than thirty years ago. The training in the unique Ramey Hypnotic Staging Process© enables a practitioner to guide a person into plenary hypnotic somnambulism, the Esdaile State (hypnotic coma), catatonic state, and the Sichort State. This system is the simplest, yet most profound technology used today. It brings about more in-depth changes within a person than any standard hypnosis technique.

 

Esdaile State, (hypnotic Coma), the Catatonic State, Sichort State or (Ultra Depth) this levels are past the Somnambulism State.

 

A person in the Esdaile State experiences general anesthesia without suggestion. The catatonic state produces limb rigidity without surface muscle contraction, which eliminates muscle fatigue and muscle burn. This is unlike the cataleptic state which is achieved in light hypnosis, where the subject experiences rigidity of the muscles.

A person in the Sichort State produces rapid-eye-movement, or REM as it is commonly called, and experiences extreme time distortion. REM is not to be mistaken with fluttering of the eyelids, which can be produced in the lighter states of hypnosis.

 

The person in the Sichort State can produce alpha, beta, delta or even theta brainwaves at the request of the operator while still producing REM. In the Sichort State, the person may not recall ever being at this ultra-profound state and recall cannot be triggered. This state enables the practitioner to truly engage in direct communication with the person's Subconscious Mind since the Conscious Mind is no longer aware or focused. This allows the person to experience far greater benefits from hypnosis. When the Conscious Mind is aware, it often blocks the Subconscious Mind from providing its special gifts because of fear and ignorance.

 

The Sichort State is very euphoric in nature and the body's healing process is enhanced from six to ten times its normal rate. The person will produce REM continuously while in this state and at the most profound point, the Conscious and Subconscious Mind's have completely reversed positions. It is the ideal state for power naps and self-healing. This state, once achieved, seems to open up the intuitive senses within a person and amplifies one's gifts and talents.

 

Mr. Sichort discovered this profound state while working with his assistant, Mary Borgessi, more than forty years ago. Later, Mr. Sichort discovered and developed yet another remarkable tool while working with his colleague, Sara Zane. He called this the "Mind-To-Mind Healing Technique." This is accomplished by linking the energy of two Subconscious Minds. Unlike other systems used in hypnotherapy, this one enables the necessary energy that the Subconscious Mind needs to make needed changes within the physical form.

 

Today we have advanced in the technology of Ultra Depth® and have developed two more powerful techniques - the SkyWalker Technique© and the Ultra Depth® Cellular ReEducation Technique©. Each has a very specific purpose and unique capabilities. Information on these two newly developed techniques will soon be forthcoming. We will continue our research into further development of more Ultra Depth® technologies.

 

 

What is Ultra Depth® Hypnosis?

 

 

Hypnosis of any kind is self-hypnosis and is characterized as "a heightened state of awareness." It’s about learning to pay attention to the process of life and working hand-in-hand with your Subconscious Mind. Hypnosis is normal and natural. We go in and out of hypnotic states every night when we sleep. Using Ultra Depth® Hypnosis, we can enter and exit these states at will.

 

There are several states of hypnosis. You enter a "Light State" of hypnosis when you daydream or when you are beginning to fall asleep and beginning to wake up. A "Medium State" is achieved when you are practicing meditation. A deeper state of hypnosis, "Somnambulism" is as common as sleepwalking, or that absentminded moment we all experience- for example, driving a car and missing the exit that you take everyday. In somnambulism, you can create local anesthesia which is useful for dentistry, receiving shots and more.

 

The "Esdaile State" creates full body anesthesia. It is an ideal state for painless, bloodless surgeries, or managing the pain of childbirth. This state provides a release from muscular and cellular memory of tensions and traumas. People often experience feelings of inner peace and euphoria.

 

Finally, the "Sichort State," the deepest state of hypnosis is reached when an individual experiences Rapid Eye Movement (REM). Minutes in this state translate into hours of restful deep sleep. In this state, the body heals six to ten times faster, gifts and talents are amplified, and intuitive abilities are enhanced. The Sichort State, achieved through Ultra Depth® Hypnosis, is the gateway to unlimited potential, and spiritual growth and development.

 

I'm only sharing knowledge of levles of Meditation, and the levels that go way beyond Meditation.

 

 

Sincerely,

Frank (hypnotist)

If not, then how are they different?

I knew Walter Sicort very well and was an invited guest to several

of his demonstrations of the Sicort Ultra Depth State. The total effect depended on a female subject (Sarah) who was a somnambulistic

(very deep trance)subject. After Sarah was hypnotized by Walter, (for the zillionth time) he would turn to the audience and say,"Now, I am going to take her down to a deeper level and you will notice that etc."

He would repeat this for five or six supposed "depths" until she reached the "Ultra Depth" state. At that time(more than forty years ago) those in attendance did not understand that when he spoke to them, Sarah was also receiving direct suggestions from him. After a few years, Walter and Sarah, could draw only a few naive students who came to learn the "Sicort Ultra Depth" method. When Sarah died, the "act" was over. Curtain down!

Since then, a few entrepreneurs, have tried to market the discredited

Sicort Ultra Depth Method as a "sure-fire" miracle method.

Don't be dazzled by exciting promises that will not be realized!

Has anyone gone into both deep meditation and hypnosis - and could actually compare the 2 from personal experience?

 

And could anyone recommend the best site, book, video, or other media on how to do deep self-hypnosis?

Edited September 2, 2016 by gendao

[de_paradise]

These are good questions, and no definitive answer, primarily because people do not agree on what is the meaning of hypnosis, and also "meditation." There are large areas of overlap obviously.  But here are my answers:

 

I think that deep meditation differs from deep trance hypnosis in that the general intent of meditation is to keep a single-pointed focus, whether it be repetitive mantra, noting, or breath etc. This tends to "clear the slate" of the mind until it becomes automatic, and when a person goes deeper into subconscious mind, towards alaya  (deeper level) mind,  this automatic  slate clearing programming continues as a sort of auto-pilot. At certain points a person can experience special spiritual altered states, such as velvet blackness, blue, some kind of samadhi state, etc, and maintain a fairly good degree of consciousness, so you can experience these states as if you were there in an alternate world. In summary, the key to meditation is that ongoing repetition (of noting, breath, etc.)  and intent to continue that meditation even as you start to move to the edge of your consciousness. Because normally, when we move to the edge of consciousness, a kind of babbling dreamscape comes along: words, pictures, (known as vritti) scenarios drag us into dream or unconsciousness. Only by relaxing,  surrendering and a thin mental tenaciousness, letting go, but still holding onto the meditation can you proceed deeper. 

 

In contrast, hypnosis does not emphasize being conscious. Hypnosis is a quicker access to deep states because your intent is to allow yourself to let go and go deeply as possible, you don't have to maintain any one-pointed focus as you arrive at the gates of subconscious and dreaming. But you do have to have an external voice guiding you, and they must know what will work. In ultra depth, or even in a fairly good state of hypnosis, you can just zonk out, and will not have recollection of any deep states that you experienced, similar to not remembering what went on in dreams or other states of sleep.

 

I hope you do find some more references and people working with deep states of hypnosis. I took the ultradepth course with James Ramey (RIP), but I haven't checked lately to see if anyone has been working on this.

Edited September 2, 2016 by de_paradise

[Taomeow]

You can hypnotize someone else or be hypnotized by someone else.  You can't meditate someone else or be meditated by someone else. 

 

Interestingly, this "someone else" holds true even if you're hypnotizing yourself vs. meditating yourself.  These are different grammatical structures, of course, as revealed by transformational grammar.  In the first case -- "I hypnotize (act upon) myself" -- your "self" is the object being acted upon by the subject, "I," a separate and different entity.  In the second, "I mediate (by) myself" or "I, myself, meditate" -- you= yourself meditate -- "I" and "myself" are one and the same entity, the object of the action, the doer.  

 

In other words, hypnosis splits/fragments consciousness, while meditation mends the split and unifies consciousness.

 

The technique matters not.  The difference is quite beyond technique, and as usual depends on the "know thyself" prerequisite.  You can hypnotize or be hypnotized without knowing yourself.  You can't meditate without knowing yourself, because there's no one to perform the act unless you are identical with your "self."

 

Which is why I believe meditation is a pretty rare phenomenon, while self-hypnosis is what's mistaken for it in many, many cases. 

Edited September 2, 2016 by Taomeow

[Karl]

Are meditation and hypnosis essentially 2 similar methods with similar goals (accessing "deeper and deeper" states of consciousness, etc)...or not?

 

If not, then how are they different?

 

Has anyone had gone into both deep meditation and hypnosis - and could actually compare the 2 from personal experience?

 

And could anyone recommend the best site, book, video, or other media on how to do deep self-hypnosis?

I am a trained hypnotist and have been hypnotised many times from light to deep trance. DM (as practiced by AYP) is identical to a deep trance state, but only up until the point where consciousness is lost-and it is lost, despite what AYP says about it. This is very different from high awareness styles of meditation-here I have no experience of taught methods of specific styles as I created my own when I became disillusioned with the sleep state style of AYP DM.

 

AYP does say to specifically ignore the scenery from DM, but never the less, flying, clairvoyance, visions, demons, Angels and crytal cities are all typical of hypnotic hallucinatory states. It's even possible to embed an exact practice time without reference to an external timer.

 

To get someone into a relaxed trance state only requires a repetition of what the subject is feeling without adding specifics. The effect is to reinforce trust in the hypnotist and create a self reinforcing feedback loop. It's like all hynotism, or persuasion, in that it is a pace/lead/pace communication technique. The subject is doing the work themselves with a little help and reassurance and then accept the suggestion -worked out in advance with specific knowledge of what they want to achieve. Repeating a mantra is very similar particularly as-in AYP-the auto suggestion of 'letting it go-easily come back to it" (easily, safely, gently are all examples of hypnotic trigger words).

 

Self hypnosis is easiest if you buy one of the CDs, the other method is binaural beats which are very effective, but, you need a script if you are trying to change something, it's not so easy to do that unless trained to do so.

 

If you are interested I suggest Milton Ericksons -my voice will go with you. It's also possible, to create a mild trance state through hypnotic writing, but it requires some co-operation from the reader as they must use the pace/lead method. To some extent this is how all good fiction works, although authors are unaware of it, but the writer needs to pick up every day things that the reader is familiar with and then gradually take them deeper into the imagining state, which is almost a dream state. Anyone who has watched a good film, or read an absorbing book will know how it feels impossible not to keep watching, or turning the pages and that feeling, very similar to waking up, when reaching the end-watch people yawning and stretching at the cinema :-)

[Cheshire Cat]

What about sufi meditations?

[de_paradise]

I would argue that the "regular" hypnotic state and deep trance states are quite different  There is little research on deep trance states, as they tend be more rare, a little more hit-and-miss, as you see with Sichort's research. There are perhaps many levels of consciousness that we are unaware of in this material plane that we may accidentally somehow access by deliberately plumbing our minds via hypnotic inductions. We can look at hypnosis as a tool or a process, just as meditation is a tool or process, and both can open up areas of mind, that even though the state is temporary, can have a sticky or lasting effect on one's waking consciousness. We may be able to unlock some hidden capacities or abilities just by attaining a particular deep state for a little while.  At the very least, it can serve as first-hand proof of different states of consciousness other than the mundane.

 

My theory is that even though hypnosis, as TM puts it, fractures consciousness, we can also perhaps instantly repair the fracture through suggestion. Nothing is ever really fractured anyway. I think its a matter of guiding the subject up to a slightly "higher" level of consciousness to where the deep states can be experienced and remembered. Anyway, I will create this deep trance session based on this theory and put it on my youtube channel in the future, and you may message me for the eventual link. I may call it "Hypnosis: deep trance experience: plumbing deep consciousness" or something like that. 

[Papayapple]

My practice used to have purpose and goals.  These days, none.  I just sit.  Sometimes I'll  count my breaths to 100.  It takes a while, then let it go after that.  Just sit in emptiness, seems to have improved my golf game a bit.  Like my life in general I give lip service to goals and purpose, but mostly I lay back or let my feet carry me where they will. 

 

In the morning I'll often listen to a guided meditation.  Maybe a yoga nidra or something adventurous and trippy, or something that keeps me in the lovely twilight between sleep and wakefulness; sometimes I'll give my body a few instructions to heal, normalize, rejuvenate.. kind of stuff. 

 

I'm slowly getting back into Wim Hof method.  Daily cold showers.  Telling myself if I want wakefulness and strong immune system, I must push the lever to the coldest setting.  In truth being summer its nowhere near as cold as it gets in winter, where its achingly cold.  Next month I'll add the breathing.   The deep rapid breathing isn't meditative, but I consider the long empty holds to be; a crazy meditation cycle in 80 to 200 seconds.  

 

 

wim hof method is definitely cool. I did the whole 10 weeks. seems now even when I take an ice bath occasionally I can pretty much calm myself down easily and my body can sit there for awhile without freaking out, so it seems the technique made lasting changes. the breathing can definitely induce some "high" states, but I only do it occasionally now for a pick me up as it was exhausting after a while to do it everyday(of course I have a chronic condition so Im not exactly a great example). but Id def recommend people give it a shot. great for the body and mind.

Is this method suitable for most people? I have some joint issues, and cold weather makes them worse. Would I benefit if I persevered?