How to trust the universe?

[Karl]

I used the T.T.C. excerpt as just one small example....so if we stick with the T.C.C. for awhile we can also find "as the origin (or source) of heaven and earth, it is nameless".

 

Btw, there is no way in hell you can prove your statement that "the universe has no source" or that I can hand you such a source that you can then measure with tools of physical measurement, that is as plain and as logical as can be, thus your definition is your own and not a truism for all.

Because you use the conceptual word. In your head is the concept as you define it. If you define the universe as a toy car on a lawn, a chunk of seemingly empty space full of planets and Suns, or whatever else you conceptualise, then you misunderstand the word and the definition that it represents. The universe is our concept of everything, all toy cars, lawns, seemingly empty space and planets. To conceive that something created the universe, or that it has a source would require the concept to be something measurably smaller than what it actually is, in other words a part of the universe.

 

It is not I that must prove it. It cannot be disproven because it is the concept we have of it.

 

There can be nothing outside the universe, no beginning, nor an end to the universe. There is no source, there will be no destruction. There is no creator, nor created as a universal totality. If any of those things are untrue, then it isn't the universe as we conceive the term. We had better go back to thinking mount Olympus is where the Gods hang out, or the dung beetle rolls the Sun across the sky.

 

Define what you mean by universe to yourself and then see if you can have a source. ;-)

Edited August 25, 2016 by Karl

[Karl]

Shad282,

 

My sister once told me about a college class in which the teacher asked, "God is good, God is all-powerful, why is there evil?"

 

Why would the Universe, God, or any loving power want all the suffering there is on earth?

 

Here's my opinion.

 

The divine plan is for TOTAL spiritual experience. All That Is wants to FULLY experience love, joy, truth, hope, strength, healing - ALL good things.

 

Without anger, there would be no such thing as forgiveness; without sickness, there couldn't be healing; without ignorance, there wouldn't be any such thing as learning or growth.

 

Without ALL possible experiences, All That Is couldn't FULLY experience all good things, therefore all possibilities exist.

A plan requires a planner. Who is this planner and where did they come from ? As you assume a planner, then who planned the planner and his plans for us ? All you get is an infinite regression, so, therefore there are no plans, we have free will, we got to manage best we can and extract as much happiness from our endeavours as we can. Our plans are our own, but they must first conform with reality or they will not function for us except in the case of some accident of coincidental error. Our planning is therefore our chosen principles by which we obtain the values that we require to survive (to serve the primary value that we hold of life itself), the obtaining of these values results in the feeling of happiness if it coincides with our chosen principles.

 

A mans life is an end in itself.

[roger]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Karl.

 

I love you man, you're beautiful.

[3bob]

the universe of everything does last a for time, does end, and then re-begin... this can be known but not in the regular way of knowing. Also see the Upanishads for additional reflections on the matter.

Edited August 25, 2016 by 3bob

[Shad282]

what great and all powerful ego thinks it can command the universe, which is what it sounds like you are alluding to Karl - hehe...

 

A plan requires a planner. Who is this planner and where did they come from ? As you assume a planner, then who planned the planner and his plans for us ? All you get is an infinite regression, so, therefore there are no plans, we have free will, we got to manage best we can and extract as much happiness from our endeavours as we can. Our plans are our own, but they must first conform with reality or they will not function for us except in the case of some accident of coincidental error. Our planning is therefore our chosen principles by which we obtain the values that we require to survive (to serve the primary value that we hold of life itself), the obtaining of these values results in the feeling of happiness if it coincides with our chosen principles.

 

A mans life is an end in itself.

 

It is not egoic to think that we make our own reality because it is true. the fact that colors are just frequency and they just not exist the way we see them, other characteristic are not just what they seem. everything is a matter of vibration but we are limited to our senses and thus limiting the reality to what we think it is. 

 

the way we see the world is subjective and that is why each person has his own opinion and interpret things differently due to his past experience and knowledge. altering those factors would change who you are and how you see the world and that is how we make our own reality.  also, our body emit frequencies, at the end we are made of frequency, so we affect what is, and since we have the freewill and the most advance tool on earth, The Mind, it can alter this frequency of ur own organs/body and thus affect its surrounding.

 

Humans have long affect the external reality through the external reality, by combining, developing, such as new tech and new way of living. but they never used any frequency tools to do that.. except in medicine in some cases radiology.

[Karl]

It is not egoic to think that we make our own reality because it is true. the fact that colors are just frequency and they just not exist the way we see them, other characteristic are not just what they seem. everything is a matter of vibration but we are limited to our senses and thus limiting the reality to what we think it is. 

 

the way we see the world is subjective and that is why each person has his own opinion and interpret things differently due to his past experience and knowledge. altering those factors would change who you are and how you see the world and that is how we make our own reality.  also, our body emit frequencies, at the end we are made of frequency, so we affect what is, and since we have the freewill and the most advance tool on earth, The Mind, it can alter this frequency of ur own organs/body and thus affect its surrounding.

 

Humans have long affect the external reality through the external reality, by combining, developing, such as new tech and new way of living. but they never used any frequency tools to do that.. except in medicine in some cases radiology.

Having an ego is fine by me.

Those colours are what they seem, they are as you perceive them. It is our conception of them that can be refined through science.

Reality is what we perceive. If you see a tree and another being is at atomic level and only sees the atomic structure, it would conceptualise a whole tree, just as we conceptualise the atomic structure. It about the relativity.

We perceive the world as it is, we then must conceptualise what we see and this requires reason and logic.

Seeing a stick appear bent in water, then realising that it is not bent and why does not make the stick appear straight.

Show me the proof that you can alter the surroundings merely by thinking.

[thelerner]

Speaking of ego..

As the saying attributed to Oliver Cromwell goes,'Trust in God but keep your powder dry'.

Yes, I do this.

Just in case God tries to steal my stuff. 

I can blast him. 

 

same with camels,

I've had to shoot 3 of them.

[Shad282]

Having an ego is fine by me.

Those colours are what they seem, they are as you perceive them. It is our conception of them that can be refined through science.

Reality is what we perceive. If you see a tree and another being is at atomic level and only sees the atomic structure, it would conceptualise a whole tree, just as we conceptualise the atomic structure. It about the relativity.

We perceive the world as it is, we then must conceptualise what we see and this requires reason and logic.

Seeing a stick appear bent in water, then realising that it is not bent and why does not make the stick appear straight.

Show me the proof that you can alter the surroundings merely by thinking.

 

Quantum physics is all about how we affect world, DNA, atoms by thinking and observing and many examples on how the water shape changes with thoughts changing. Many experiments out there and artists using it. and since most of the things in the world are made out of water, then u can affect them by thinking.

 

 

 

also a movie i watched yesterday called: I AM (2010) documentary, he does an experiment at a science institute how his emotions and thoughts affects yogurt charges.

 

that is one example of many, that is old, done by so many on youtube as an experiment, that is the link to the official experiment:

 

Masaru Emoto's Rice Experiment

 

Edited August 26, 2016 by Shad282

[Karl]

Oh dear the good Doctor must have been shouting at you and your rice brain turned the mouldy mush.

 

Have you tried activating your orgone accumulator, or making a frog face at passing motorists. It can help. Better still, post me goods to the value of £20K and I will do a quantum prayer session with ringing bells and a snake charmer. Guaranteed, really, money back guarantee if it doesn't cure you.

[Jadespear]

it seems for me hard to trust the universe/life.. you can see people who struggle and suffer due to stuff beyond their control, for example a kid that is living in war or on street hungry and such..  why would the universe put that innocent kid in such situations and pains. Even tho, some may say, will help him to develop and become strong and other benefits of these situations.. but these lessons could have come in another way. why the universe/life has to make its learning through suffering? couldn't be upgraded to a new positive way of teaching?

 

how would I trust that the universe won't try to teach me through such kind of events of pains? i know i can cop up with such events that I consider painful or whatever.. but are they necessary. it is like you know the way out but do you have to go through it from the first place?

 

I do believe that we create our own reality but that is make me increase the control i have over myself and my actions and increase my awareness of thoughts and sensations to be able to control my own reality 100%.

 

but at the same time I think it is not really we are the only one who make our own reality, no matter what we do, because how would an innocent pure kid put himself in such situation and experience: (no karma plz)

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/08/20/brother-of-omran-daqneesh-boy-who-became-the-symbol-of-syrias/21455644/

 

isn't the universe harsh?

 

 

... Dude you need to define what your concept of the " universe " is....   everything that happens in the universe happens based on the law of cause and effect...

 

Without a true understanding of the universe and a way to define it, you will never be able to answer this question...

[Jadespear]

Shad282, on 21 Aug 2016 - 4:27 PM, said:

it seems for me hard to trust the universe/life.. you can see people who struggle and suffer due to stuff beyond their control, for example a kid that is living in war or on street hungry and such..  why would the universe put that innocent kid in such situations and pains. Even tho, some may say, will help him to develop and become strong and other benefits of these situations.. but these lessons could have come in another way. why the universe/life has to make its learning through suffering? couldn't be upgraded to a new positive way of teaching?

 

how would I trust that the universe won't try to teach me through such kind of events of pains? i know i can cop up with such events that I consider painful or whatever.. but are they necessary. it is like you know the way out but do you have to go through it from the first place?

 

I do believe that we create our own reality but that is make me increase the control i have over myself and my actions and increase my awareness of thoughts and sensations to be able to control my own reality 100%.

 

but at the same time I think it is not really we are the only one who make our own reality, no matter what we do, because how would an innocent pure kid put himself in such situation and experience: (no karma plz)

http://www.aol.com/a...yrias/21455644/

 

isn't the universe harsh?

 

 

Lets break it down shall we----

 

First question and inference you've made - the universe is an actual "thinking thing with free will that is somehow orchestrating the events of itself and all the beings therein...."    -----   Is this based in any real world example that you can see?  Your statements reflect more of a theological concept vein, where the universe is like " God" and that it is a cosmic policeman  that is supposed to be bringing forth morally based things to you and everyone else......    IS tHIS realllllyyy the case?????..........

 

Events the are suffering and painful ----   why are they painful?  Why do you think that the universe is conspiring against you or anyone else...?  And why are you so blatantly denying the simple truth that there are events that occur that are beyond your control to change at your present level of awareness?

 

" We create and control our own reality...."   - Are you serious?  Did you create yourself?  Did you create the laws of nature?  Did you create the birds, animals, rocks and trees,  and everything else that makes up the physical world that we live in?...............   come on dude.

 

"Isn't the universe harsh..."    -----    you mean "isn't everything that I don't like, not good, and unsympathetic to my current mindest, opinion, and views".....    

 

.... Where are you going to get with this kind of nonsense thinking?

.....unfortunate and absolute judgements on temporal circumstances and situations is quite foolish.... because they will change at some point.

 

.... Yes - life can be hard sometimes, simply because you don't like it.  Doesn't mean that the "universe" is mean like a person, or anything like that...   just means that it would be best in those situations to attempt to enact the changes that you want to.     Life circumstances change most often through long times of effort.  Wars are fought by people to free themselves from circumstances they don't like.

 

.... The world of human civilization that we live in is mostly founded on and sustained through greed, fear, stupidity, and exploitation.... this is a fact right now.   However - it does not have to remain that way.     You could change it, if you really wanted to.

[Stosh]

it seems for me hard to trust the universe/life.. you can see people who struggle and suffer due to stuff beyond their control, for example a kid that is living in war or on street hungry and such..  why would the universe put that innocent kid in such situations and pains. Even tho, some may say, will help him to develop and become strong and other benefits of these situations.. but these lessons could have come in another way. why the universe/life has to make its learning through suffering? couldn't be upgraded to a new positive way of teaching?

 

how would I trust that the universe won't try to teach me through such kind of events of pains? i know i can cop up with such events that I consider painful or whatever.. but are they necessary. it is like you know the way out but do you have to go through it from the first place?

 

I do believe that we create our own reality but that is make me increase the control i have over myself and my actions and increase my awareness of thoughts and sensations to be able to control my own reality 100%.

 

but at the same time I think it is not really we are the only one who make our own reality, no matter what we do, because how would an innocent pure kid put himself in such situation and experience: (no karma plz)

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/08/20/brother-of-omran-daqneesh-boy-who-became-the-symbol-of-syrias/21455644/

 

isn't the universe harsh?

The universe is overall neutral, and concludably ' universally good ' in its being non-chaotic .

People though , may fairly be considered harsh Or nice , because they act with intent and have a bias. 

Events happen , and though you certainly have input regarding your experiences on earth , I personally conclude that complete control of ones reality isn't in the cards. 

To the extent that you do gain control over your attitudes and externals, ,, I think you should give yourself a hearty pat on the back, and figure its well worth the effort.

Trick is , its not always apparent how and what exactly , one needs to adjust more , ... the comfy chair , or ones arse.

[Karl]

The universe is overall neutral, and concludably ' universally good ' in its being non-chaotic .

People though , may fairly be considered harsh Or nice , because they act with intent and have a bias. 

Events happen , and though you certainly have input regarding your experiences on earth , I personally conclude that complete control of ones reality isn't in the cards. 

To the extent that you do gain control over your attitudes and externals, ,, I think you should give yourself a hearty pat on the back, and figure its well worth the effort.

Trick is , its not always apparent how and what exactly , one needs to adjust more , ... the comfy chair , or ones arse.

Sounds similar to:

 

 

 

1. The universe is benevolent because it isn't chaotic, but it's neutral in every other sense.

2. People can be considered prime movers of a kind and do evil acts or good acts-they aren't inherently evil, nor good.

3. Somethings can be controlled, others cannot.

4. The success of ones achievement of values IS rewarded by the slap on the back happiness brings. :-)

5. Trick is to know where you are ? How you know it ? What you should do ? (Comfy chair/arse) :-)

[Stosh]

Sounds similar to:

 

 

 

1. The universe is benevolent because it isn't chaotic, but it's neutral in every other sense.

2. People can be considered prime movers of a kind and do evil acts or good acts-they aren't inherently evil, nor good.

3. Somethings can be controlled, others cannot.

4. The success of ones achievement of values IS rewarded by the slap on the back happiness brings. :-)

5. Trick is to know where you are ? How you know it ? What you should do ? (Comfy chair/arse) :-)

Did I unintentionally mirror someone? or is that a close modification.  I always did figure we werent that far apart in opinion yknow. 

[Karl]

Did I unintentionally mirror someone? or is that a close modification.  I always did figure we werent that far apart in opinion yknow.

 

I paraphrased it for my own clarification of your post and nothing more. Would you state that this is fact or feeling ?

[Stosh]

I paraphrased it for my own clarification of your post and nothing more. Would you state that this is fact or feeling ?

Ah,  

I consider it the reasonable-unavoidable conclusion which one considers fact, BUT,, I realize that other people may not weigh things the way I do and so ,( since on a small local scale events do seem to just Happen around us with an element of unpredictability ), it would also be OK to classify it as 'feeling' . ... but I consider it fact on larger scale since the universe isnt singling US out to have rain on our head  

Edited September 28, 2016 by Stosh

[Karl]

Ah,  

I consider it the reasonable-unavoidable conclusion which one considers fact, BUT,, I realize that other people may not weigh things the way I do and so ,( since on a small local scale events do seem to just Happen around us with an element of unpredictability ), it would also be OK to classify it as 'feeling' . ... but I consider it fact on larger scale since the universe isnt singling US out to have rain on our head  

and how do you know these unpredictable events aren't simply a figment of a conscious creation of existence and that you actually manifest the rain on your own head ?

[Stosh]

and how do you know these unpredictable events aren't simply a figment of a conscious creation of existence and that you actually manifest the rain on your own head ?

Because that would be silly.

 

 

 

reductio ad absurdum 

Edited September 28, 2016 by Stosh

[Karl]

Because that would be silly.

Chuckle : chuckle. :-)

 

That's not really a very good argument Mr Stosh even though it's funny.

[Stosh]

Hey,,, if they have a latin term for it .. I can use it.

[Karl]

Hey,,, if they have a latin term for it .. I can use it.

Argumentum absurdum - or something like that. I have enough bother with English.

[Stosh]

Argumentum absurdum - or something like that. I have enough bother with English.

Right,, the point is , that you've got to make the assertive case for your idea,,, before requiring me to disprove it. 

[Karl]

Right,, the point is , that you've got to make the assertive case for your idea,,, before requiring me to disprove it.

 

I'm kind of at ease watching a million flowers bloom at present :-)

[thelerner]

Argumentum absurdum - or something like that..

I think for it to work properly

you have to wave your wand

when you say it.

[Karl]

I think for it to work properly

you have to wave your wand

when you say it.

Harry Potter we meet again. :-)

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum