You are spirit

[Marblehead]

 

I think there is a wire crossed re the thumbs,  I thought I was saing other animals have thumbs, in response to a post that seemed to be saying, our human difference was we did have thumbs (implying that other animals didnt ) .

That's okay.  You and I get confused often when we are talking with each other.  That makes it even more fun.

[Marblehead]

Okay, so , if I take your point that , now, some scientists do consider a new definition whereby animals can have 'culture'  ... and you seem to acknowledge we share thumbs .... what do you see as the main basic human difference from animals ? 

 

... and DONT say 'spirit '   .... without defining it       

Darn!  You have put limits on me!!!

 

Well, there are a lot of differences between species to species.

 

I would agree that the complexity of human culture would be one important factor.

 

Verbal language is, of course, a separator between humans and other animals.

 

Brain capacity, I think, would be the most important.

 

I doubt I would be able to include our ability to imagine though.  Maybe?

 

Our body structure for upright walking would be very important too.

[Gerard]

 

I don't hold to the concept of rebirth so I won't speak to that.

Sure...what is the real you and how is this "being" being expressed from a certain perspective; in other words,

will you be ever grasp the concept of I or me?

 

What is living and dying...really? A measure of change perhaps?

 

What is this "spirit thing" Edward is talking about?

 

Me vs the rest is the biggest problem religion and "spirituality" incur.

 

No to religion no to spirit, yes to totality, yes to here and now and yes to ethics and morality to the highest level.

 

What is reality?

 

Forget about it. Beyond the mind and personal experience.

 

BE!

 

[Gerard]

Humans and animals? If you happen to practice in the natural world, your concept and view of our little brothers and sisters will dramatically change...same goes with trees, plants and mountains. There is a lot more going on as you may think.

 

Each if these beings is a UNIVERSE itself, same as a human being?

 

What is to be a human, animal or tree?

 

From this being called Gerard and writing these words, there is no difference really. We are all the same thing. Don't fool yourself thinking that you are a lot different than a bird, a monkey or a fig tree. They are different livings aspects of the same thing.

 

ONE!!!

Edited August 25, 2016 by Gerard

[Nungali]

Darn!  You have put limits on me!!!

 

Gotta get even somehow     

 

Well, there are a lot of differences between species to species.

 

I would agree that the complexity of human culture would be one important factor.

 

 

Verbal language is, of course, a separator between humans and other animals.

 

Polly want a cracker ? 

 

Brain capacity, I think, would be the most important.

 

Whales have big brains . 

 

I doubt I would be able to include our ability to imagine though.  Maybe?

 

 ....             ....... bingo !   I hope to explore this soon in the Origin of Mankind thread .  (Not that we can prove animals dont have imagination ... its what we can do wit our imagination . 

 

( a bit of background - back in ancient history when I was at Uni, doing  anthropology courses, I was given a definition of what makes man unique , back then ;  'Man - the toolmaker'.  As time went on, idea after idea was knocked out the ring; no, some animals do make use tools .... well , make tools then , no - some animals do make tools .  Ummmm .... culture ! - apparently not .   Intercontinental raft migration ?  Nope, monkeys and other animals do that .  Ummmm .....  walking upright ?

 

Samba anyone ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ...   (walking upright is a hominid trait ... not specifically  'human'   

 

Our body structure for upright walking would be very important too.

 

 

 

 

 

So, what the hell IS it  ? .... I think I have an answer .... or at least a definition . 

Edited August 25, 2016 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Humans and animals? If you happen to practice in the natural world, your concept and view of our little brothers and sisters will dramatically change...same goes with trees, plants and mountains. There is a lot more going on as you may think.

 

Each if these beings is a UNIVERSE itself, same as a human being?

 

What is to be a human, animal or tree?

 

From this being called Gerard and writing these words, there is no difference really. We are all the same thing. Don't fool yourself thinking that you are a lot different than a bird, a monkey or a fig tree. They are different livings aspects of the same thing.

 

ONE!!!

 

 

.....  vague and abstract cosmo-spirituality jingoism to avoid the difficult questions .  When a tree makes a post here , I will concur with your last paragraph .  

 

.

[Marblehead]

So, what the hell IS it  ? .... I think I have an answer .... or at least a definition .

 

I shall be waiting in wild anticipation.

[Nungali]

I just decided to cut out all the 'spiritual baloney' and decided .... its 'you'.  The essential you ... the 'spirit' of a thing and the associated qualities that thing has  .... the thing that makes marblehead marblehead , regardless of  if;  another has his exact same astrology, is an identical twin, was bought up exactly the same way in the same environment ...   that which can make us different, regardless of all these things. 

 

How do we get it ?   Again trying to cut out the baloney ... perhaps the genetic code carries a LOT more than physical traits ?  

 

The expression of this individual nature ... or rather , the desire of it to express its individual nature, I call 'soul', specifically, the imaginative creative soul.  Its expression, particularly in the 'hard objects' man makes is one of the things that makes him unique.

 

This 'spirit' and 'soul' are dependent on each other for  satisfaction, expression and fulfillment .  

 

.... thats all .... you can calm down now . 

Edited August 27, 2016 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

Well, Nungali, you did pretty damn good there for a non-believer.  Hehehe.

 

I doubt there is any definition of either soul or spirit that would be accepted by a majority of different people.

 

These are mental concepts, of course.  Ask Karl or even Brian to define the two concepts and likely we would get an answer similar to "There ain't none."

 

Talking about soul and spirit does help us to better define our self to our self.  It is even better if we can find our own definitions rather than just repeating what others have told us.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Put your house in order, set up the internal government.

 

When ego or emotion lead energy acting as the host of affairs  all becomes disorder (life sucks). When spirit moves Energy there is order. Spirit is the host, emotion and ego are the guest.

 

It is only when the guest acts like the host things are not in there proper place.

 

As we become conditioned the spirit sinks  (out of consciousness ) and the ego/ self rises. So make what sinks to float and what floats to sink and all is well.This is why people do not know the spirit they forgot who they are.T

 

The fake self wants full control do not allow this to happen it likes power and will not give up easily.

[Wu Ming Jen]

The bright side of this story is that the lower self is in love with the higher self and will follow the spirits orders without conflict.

 

When we reach this stage you can see that our presidential candidates  are dark spirits. Do not let the current outside world (no matter what time you are living in) to disturb your peace and rob your power for this dust of the world is a short temporary situation make this world a better place starting with what is very close and with you in all times..... spirit..

Edited August 27, 2016 by Wu Ming Jen

[Nungali]

Well, Nungali, you did pretty damn good there for a non-believer.  Hehehe.

 

 

 

 HEY !  ......        

 

 

 

 

 

 

I doubt there is any definition of either soul or spirit that would be accepted by a majority of different people.

 

These are mental concepts, of course.  Ask Karl or even Brian to define the two concepts and likely we would get an answer similar to "There ain't none."

 

I do believe under my definitions and if allowed further explanation I could get Brian to agree with me ... Karl ?   ....      .....  he cant even have a proper conversation nowadays       

 

Talking about soul and spirit does help us to better define our self to our self.  It is even better if we can find our own definitions rather than just repeating what others have told us.

 

yeah ...... it took me 40 years to get that little snippet out .....     

Edited August 27, 2016 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

I actually have some Monkees music in my collection.  I was rather selective as to what would be included though.

[Nungali]

Put your house in order, set up the internal government. 

 

Well said !  Not many people even can understand the concepts of 'internal government' and the need for a structured internal hierarchy , its not a subject I talk about much as people seem to start thinking I have some type of multiple personality disorder  - no , I have a multiple personality order . 

 

I found this an interesting example from  a western   tradition   (  OTO -  'magical fraternity' )  http://lib.oto-usa.org/libri/liber0194.html

 

One can see clearly  ( well, I can see clearly ) that it is meant to map an external organisation but also serves as a model for 'internal government' of the people involved in the external organisation - some dispute this , but it says so , pretty clearly at the beginning  : 

 

"  1. This is the Constitution and Government of our Holy Order; by the study of its Balance you may yourself come to apprehension of how to rule your own life. For, in True Things, all are but images one of another; man is but a map of the universe, and Society is but the same on a larger scale."

 

There  are some interesting ideas in there.  Another simpler model is in the Tree of Life Sephiroth titles '

 

                        Crown

 

Understanding            Wisdom

 

                    Knowledge

 

Severity                           Mercy

 

 

                         Beauty

 

Victory                                   Splendor 

 

                        Foundation

 

                         Empire 

 

To be able to have and secure an Empire (internally or otherwise)  one needs a firm balanced foundation,  to be victorious, to exhibit splendor, to show beauty to understand the balance between law and strength / loving kindness and compassion and have Knowledge. On this one can develop Understanding  and Wisdom ( results of applying knowledge and applying appropriate courses of action , then one can wear the kings (or magicians ) Crown 

 

 

When ego or emotion lead energy acting as the host of affairs  all becomes disorder (life sucks). When spirit moves Energy there is order. Spirit is the host, emotion and ego are the guest.

 

In a simpler model, 'elementally '  ;     Fire- individuality, inspiration , 'spirit'  :  Water - emotions, feelings : Air - mentation , mind , Earth - physicality , body. manifestation. 

 

We get an inspiration (fire), we see how we feel about it, maybe 'sleep on it' (run it through the unconscious, another watery symbol ), think about it and work it logically, make a plan of action, put that into action. Many dont understand fire and 'spirit', many have confused or unruly emotions, that leaves mind to run the show .... a big mistake, it isnt supposed to, it is supposed to evaluate things that 'come down to it' it isnt supposed to be running things ...

 

that is like putting the factory foreman in the CEO's chair  and expecting him to do other jobs while he is still trying to run the factory  every day  ... and worse ....  it will eventually think that this IS its rightful place ... and become a little hard to 'dislodge' . 

 

It is only when the guest acts like the host things are not in there proper place.

 

 

As we become conditioned the spirit sinks  (out of consciousness ) and the ego/ self rises. So make what sinks to float and what floats to sink and all is well.This is why people do not know the spirit they forgot who they are.T

 

yes, thats why its good to keep interested, find new amazements and break conditionings .  

 

The fake self wants full control do not allow this to happen it likes power and will not give up easily.

 

Yes, The factory foreman has left the floor and  become established in the office, meanwhile all sorts of chaos ensues, trying to remove him will just make it worse. We need to turn up with the 'office staff' and the designers and the blueprints and reassure the foreman that the other competent ones have returned, he can relax a bit, he doesnt have to do everything, he can go back to his job, which he does very well, and we couldnt do without him ..... persuasion, and appreciation, thats what the mind needs ... you try to force it - it will rebel, in all sorts of ways .... even ' throw a spanner in the works' .

Edited August 27, 2016 by Nungali

[Nungali]

The bright side of this story is that the lower self is in love with the higher self and will follow the spirits orders without conflict.

 

Ummmm ......  my 'marriage' isnt like that  .....   I start giving orders, there will be trouble !  best to come home with flowers and use some subtle persuasion IMO .

 

When we reach this stage you can see that our presidential candidates  are dark spirits. Do not let the current outside world (no matter what time you are living in) to disturb your peace and rob your power for this dust of the world is a short temporary situation make this world a better place starting with what is very close and with you in all times..... spirit..

 

 

True .... Life is brief - do it while you can .

[Nungali]

I actually have some Monkees music in my collection.  I was rather selective as to what would be included though.

 

You old tripper ;

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdd5xI9l7Ns

[Boy]

I'm in the the "ain't none"-camp. Consider this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq2bfSzkTfU (not that I agree with every little detail).

[Marblehead]

Excellent video.  The host, I forget his name, has an on-going series where he asks all the hard questions of his guests.

 

I don't intentionally follow the series but whenever one of the programs is on I will generally watch it.

 

But anyhow, from my materialist perspective I am pretty much in agreement with Mr. Searle.

 

From my Taoist perspective I remain as I spoke to above.

[rex]

Was spirit ever defined by anyone? If not then from a Western perspective (Hermetic & Judeo-Christian) isn't spirit the divine spark of God in everyone? Man made in the image of God. This is disinct from disembodied consciousness in the sense of an ominous declaration of  'There be spirits!'

[Nungali]

Who knows ?   English terms are not suitable for such distinctions . It does nit seem a language that goes deep into the philosophical or theological, thats why we have to keep borrowing Sanskrit, Buddhist , Germanic   etc terms to  better explain such concepts .

 

I can say spirit , but I have then to say ... not a type of ghost one but a type of spirit that .....  

 

An ancient Egyptian might do better  (Ka, Ba,  Akh ,  etc .)  .... or  a Zoroastrian  (Mainyu, Urvan , Fraveshi )

 

 

... or anyone !   I think English is the 'language of commerce' .... just not suitable for a deeper spiritual understanding  . 

[Marblehead]

Nope, I can't define the word/concept "spirit".  I have offered my understanding.