Life After Death? Life After Life?

[laughingblade]

According to the following article - reported in many UK newspapers - in some 'near death' experiences death does occur but the process is reversed.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/670781/There-IS-life-after-DEATH-Scientists-reveal-shock-findings-from-groundbreaking-study

 

"Scientists had believed the brain ceased all activity 30 seconds after the heart stopped pumping blood around the body, and that awareness stopped at the same time.

But research from the University of Southampton suggests otherwise.

A new study shows people continue experiencing awareness for up to three minutes after death."

 

Hold on a minute aboo.

 

The studies referred support the view that there is can be continued brain activity for some time after heart stoppage. That means that  person is alive during an NDE, not dead.

 

They support my assertion that somebody who has experienced an NDE cannot make any valid statement about what it is like to be dead.

 

This is not nihilism, materialism, spiritulism or botulism.

 

BTW, you're clearly not from the UK else you'd know that the Express and the Sun are two of the shoddiest popular press publications we have. Their reporting on these matters isn't to be trusted without further research.

[laughingblade]

You're entitled to your beliefs of course, but you came to a public forum and it kinda seems like you want others to not only acknowledge your experience (sure!), but to share your beliefs..

 

I can really really appreciate that you're revved up big time as a result of your NDE. I think if you want to properly integrate that into your life then there's work to be done.

 

An NDE or OOBE can be a huge shock. Your writing has a sense of insistence about it that reminds me of people I've known who get an unexpected awakening and then are on a mission. Time and maybe some counselling, physical exercise and taking up a contemplative practice can help ease the mania. If the Taoists here had their Taoist hats on they might be talking to you about the effects in esoteric or TCM terms. In more Hindu terms it might be described as a Kundalini experience.

 

I don't think it's particularly helpful for posters to either say "Woo! I believe that TOO!" or to label others as nihilists or materialists. That's pretty binary, whereas any genuine inquiry would surely be saying "interesting, how does that work? What else? What next?". I'm agnostic on the love & peace thing, and the what-happens-after-death thing FWIW but would love an ounce pf proof either way.

 

I died for about 3 to 5 minutes back in 2002, during surgery (in the recovery room). 

There IS a life after death.

 

- you didn't die. Sorry. Isn't that obvious?

- You're asserting in your first post that there IS a life after death.

 

Then:

 

I will honestly tell you that *I do NOT know* what lies beyond the final stage of living

 

So you're now saying you DON'T KNOW that there is a life after death? Or what?

 

Elisabeth Kubler-Ross wrote a book and called it "Death, The Final Stage of Growth".

 

 

Elisabeth Kubler-Ross AFAIK was all about helping people through their deaths. She developed the idea of the 5 stages of grief. Compassion at the bedside, as it were. That book is a survey of beliefs almost as an addendum to her main work.

 

Raymond Moody AFAIK doesn't claim that the NDE he researched prove life after life, despite the title of his book.

 

Here is what I BELIEVE: The Universe (the Dao) HAS OUR BACK, if we are pursuing De.

 

I believe that we live, and die, in a Loving environment.  I felt NOTHING but PEACE, and if this was just "the first part of the experience" how much better might the later stages be?? I Believe that we are LOVED. But that's just me, and you are welcome to believe that we're NOT, or that we vanish into nothingness, but I personally find that to be a foolish and absurd idea, after what happened to me! 

 

We are ALL in this together, ALL of us, and the sooner that we figure this out, the better off we'll ALL be!

 

"If this was the first part of the experience..." what if it wasn't? What if it was just your brain on anaesthesia and reduced oxygen? What if it was your winds dropping into the central channel and indestructible drop? What if it was Jesus comin' a' take you home? What is your basis for taking the experience you had (wasn't it enough?) and projecting it into what-if-land?

 

Belief is fine as far as it goes, which surely is only as far as taking action to see if it's well-founded. Otherwise we're in the business of Making Stuff Up. Why do you want to shout "I BELIEVE" at me? You can do that in any church or temple (said Kabir ;-).

 

We might not all be in this together. What kind of loving environment is it for malnourished babies in the 3rd world, for child soldiers forced to kill, for girls forced to be sex slaves for jihadists? If per your nick you are differently abled then your own experience of embodied life so far probably hasn't been all that supportive. Don't flake out of life as it is, don't fall for the cheap spiritual uplift or Newage narcissism.

 

Here's a thing:

Robert Monroe had some odd experiences and went on to investigate OOBE and post-death states. He set up a research institute to investigate. His books are brilliant. Thousands of people have participated, including in (they say) helping people in difficulties in after-death states. Is that nonsense? I don't know. My point is that Robert Monroe didn't go about asking people to believe his claims or indeed share his beliefs - he did everything he could to find out the truth of his experiences.

 

You've possibly had a glimpse. Your beliefs are sound as beliefs: now you have some work to do.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Seem to me that the "body" is working for about 49 days after "death".

 

For the first 9 days sensory cells are still working.

 

Do not cremate before 9 days.

 

Energy is releasing from all cells, which is perceptible.

 

Eventually, leaving one tiny spot in one cell in the heart, the place of appearance.

 

Collapsing into this spot, back into other dimension.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Brian]

We get hats? Why is this the first time I've heard about it?!?

[laughingblade]

Seem to me that the "body" is working for about 49 days after "death".

 

For the first 9 days sensory cells are still working.

 

Do not cremate before 9 days.

 

Energy is releasing from all cells, which is perceptible.

 

Eventually, leaving one tiny spot in one cell in the heart, the place of appearance.

 

Collapsing into this spot, back into other dimension.

 

How do you know all these things?

[Albion]

You're entitled to your beliefs of course, but you came to a public forum and it kinda seems like you want others to not only acknowledge your experience (sure!), but to share your beliefs..

 

I can really really appreciate that you're revved up big time as a result of your NDE. I think if you want to properly integrate that into your life then there's work to be done.

 

An NDE or OOBE can be a huge shock. Your writing has a sense of insistence about it that reminds me of people I've known who get an unexpected awakening and then are on a mission. Time and maybe some counselling, physical exercise and taking up a contemplative practice can help ease the mania. If the Taoists here had their Taoist hats on they might be talking to you about the effects in esoteric or TCM terms. In more Hindu terms it might be described as a Kundalini experience.

 

I don't think it's particularly helpful for posters to either say "Woo! I believe that TOO!" or to label others as nihilists or materialists. That's pretty binary, whereas any genuine inquiry would surely be saying "interesting, how does that work? What else? What next?". I'm agnostic on the love & peace thing, and the what-happens-after-death thing FWIW but would love an ounce pf proof either way.

 

 

- you didn't die. Sorry. Isn't that obvious?

- You're asserting in your first post that there IS a life after death.

 

Then:

 

 

So you're now saying you DON'T KNOW that there is a life after death? Or what?

 

 

 

Elisabeth Kubler-Ross AFAIK was all about helping people through their deaths. She developed the idea of the 5 stages of grief. Compassion at the bedside, as it were. That book is a survey of beliefs almost as an addendum to her main work.

 

Raymond Moody AFAIK doesn't claim that the NDE he researched prove life after life, despite the title of his book.

 

 

"If this was the first part of the experience..." what if it wasn't? What if it was just your brain on anaesthesia and reduced oxygen? What if it was your winds dropping into the central channel and indestructible drop? What if it was Jesus comin' a' take you home? What is your basis for taking the experience you had (wasn't it enough?) and projecting it into what-if-land?

 

Belief is fine as far as it goes, which surely is only as far as taking action to see if it's well-founded. Otherwise we're in the business of Making Stuff Up. Why do you want to shout "I BELIEVE" at me? You can do that in any church or temple (said Kabir ;-).

 

We might not all be in this together. What kind of loving environment is it for malnourished babies in the 3rd world, for child soldiers forced to kill, for girls forced to be sex slaves for jihadists? If per your nick you are differently abled then your own experience of embodied life so far probably hasn't been all that supportive. Don't flake out of life as it is, don't fall for the cheap spiritual uplift or Newage narcissism.

 

Here's a thing:

Robert Monroe had some odd experiences and went on to investigate OOBE and post-death states. He set up a research institute to investigate. His books are brilliant. Thousands of people have participated, including in (they say) helping people in difficulties in after-death states. Is that nonsense? I don't know. My point is that Robert Monroe didn't go about asking people to believe his claims or indeed share his beliefs - he did everything he could to find out the truth of his experiences.

 

You've possibly had a glimpse. Your beliefs are sound as beliefs: now you have some work to do.

 

 

My Dad was a Brit, what do Brits call someone like YOU? "An arse hole". But I'm an American, and WE call people like you "ass holes".

 

 

Fine, now you can ban me. 

 

D.A.D.

Edited August 30, 2016 by DifferentlyAbledDaoist

[Marblehead]

We get hats? Why is this the first time I've heard about it?!?

You just weren't listening before.  Hehehe.

[Brian]

You just weren't listening before.  Hehehe.

I double-checked my mailbox and is hasn't been delivered yet.

[Marblehead]

It's delivered by Spirit.

[Brian]

It's delivered by Spirit.

Oooohhhh! One of those hats. Yep, got one. It's very nice.

[Albion]

I saw Elizabeth Kubler-Ross speak many years ago (probably 1976, or '77) and she said (after she asked everyone to turn OFF their tape recorders and to NOT take photos of her at that time):  "I have scientific PROOF I can present in a laboratory that the human soul or spirit SURVIVES DEATH, but you see, I'm afraid if I present this in a public format, that I'LL BE RESPONSIBLE for a mass wave of suicides". I went to this gathering with a psychiatric nurse tech. I worked at a suicide prevention center then, this was in Little Rock, Arkansas, I no longer remember where the building was, where this gathering was, but I clearly remember what Elizabeth Kubler-Ross SAID!

 

So, to ALL the nay sayers.......... D.A.D.

Edited August 30, 2016 by DifferentlyAbledDaoist

[laughingblade]

My Dad was a Brit, what do Brits call someone like YOU? "An arse hole". But I'm an American, and WE call people like you "ass holes".

 

Hey, I just died! Well I reckon I'm dead to you now.

 

Dude I worked really hard on that post and you just sh*t on it. There's a lot in it: you're not a special snowflake, and whether you like what I say or not you can either do the work or remain a whiny *****.

 

PS if your Dad was a Brit then *you're* a Brit. Are you telling the truth about anything at all?

[laughingblade]

I saw Elizabeth Kubler-Ross speak many years ago (probably 1976, or '77) and she said (after she asked everyone to turn OFF their tape recorders and to NOT take photos of her at that time):  "I have scientific PROOF I can present in a laboratory that the human soul or spirit SURVIVES DEATH, but you see, I'm afraid if I present this in a public format, that I'LL BE RESPONSIBLE for a mass wave of suicides". I went to this gathering with a psychiatric nurse tech. I worked at a suicide prevention center then, this was in Little Rock, Arkansas, I no longer remember where the building was, where this gathering was, but I clearly remember what Elizabeth Kubler-Ross SAID!

 

So, to ALL the nay sayers.......... D.A.D.

 

Are you telling the truth about anything at all?

 

Guess not. Bye!

[Marblehead]

Let's remember, we are talking about beliefs here.  These reside in the state of "wu", the unmanifest.

 

What one believes they have experienced can never be proved either way by anyone else.

[aboo]

Hold on a minute aboo.

 

The studies referred support the view that there is can be continued brain activity for some time after heart stoppage. That means that  person is alive during an NDE, not dead.

 

They support my assertion that somebody who has experienced an NDE cannot make any valid statement about what it is like to be dead.

 

This is not nihilism, materialism, spiritulism or botulism.

 

BTW, you're clearly not from the UK else you'd know that the Express and the Sun are two of the shoddiest popular press publications we have. Their reporting on these matters isn't to be trusted without further research.

 

Yup, the papers are maybe unreliable, but they cannot be dismissed out of hand. I do know Dr Sam Parnia has been researching NDE's are quite some time, but due to other commitments I haven't the time to verify what the Express reported. 

 

My personal opinion is awareness is not dependent on the body, and once the body dies awareness is free to go on it's merry way. I believe awareness/presence is the movie screen the movie plays on and continues to exist once the movie ends. The research by Mr Parnia proving that awareness survives once the brain stops functioning, the brain and body simple being a machine that awareness animates.

[Albion]

Hey, I just died! Well I reckon I'm dead to you now.

 

Dude I worked really hard on that post and you just sh*t on it. There's a lot in it: you're not a special snowflake, and whether you like what I say or not you can either do the work or remain a whiny *****.

 

PS if your Dad was a Brit then *you're* a Brit. Are you telling the truth about anything at all?

 

 

My Dad was from the Somerset area (still to this day "a Celtic Place"). My Mom, of Scottish descent, was an American.

 

My Dad came here when he was boy. He became *a naturalized American citizen*. I'm an American, but I'm proud of my Celtic ancestry, on both sides of my family.

 

I honestly at this point, don't really CARE that you think that I'm a liar (or care about ANYTHING ELSE that you think, for that matter).

 

I could've used the Kubler-Ross quote very early on in this conversation, but it was *my experience*, that I wanted to write about. NOT what E.Q.R. said *long before* my experience.

 

I'm DONE in this discussion with you.      D.A.D.

 

P.S. We're ALL "special snowflakes"!

Edited August 31, 2016 by DifferentlyAbledDaoist

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Seem to me that the "body" is working for about 49 days after "death".

 

For the first 9 days sensory cells are still working.

 

Do not cremate before 9 days.

 

Energy is releasing from all cells, which is perceptible.

 

Eventually, leaving one tiny spot in one cell in the heart, the place of appearance.

 

Collapsing into this spot, back into other dimension.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

What if you cremate before that? faster energy release?

[laughingblade]

Let's remember, we are talking about beliefs here.  These reside in the state of "wu", the unmanifest.

 

What one believes they have experienced can never be proved either way by anyone else.

 

Almost: beliefs reside in the state of "woo", the unsupportable.

 

Actually if there's anything to your statement Marblehead (and I assume there is, cos you have a hat and all), then I wonder how we might differentiate between belief that can potentially manifest and belief that is and can only ever be unmanifest since it fails to meet any of the criteria for manifestation. How does the 'stuckness' of the latter express itself in a person, say?

 

In this case DAD experienced heart-stoppage, some OOBE/NDE during which there was a feeling of being loved. The feeling of peace and love has remained. This is great, valid, inspiring to some and worthy of further investigation to others. It's certainly worth taking seriously & there's no belief necessary. The unsupportable unmanifest woo part is the "therefore.. life after death is real".

[laughingblade]

My Dad was from the Somerset area (still to this day "a Celtic Place"). My Mom, of Scottish descent, was an American.

 

I've spent much of my life in the Somerset area. Don't get your hopes up too much. Celts as far as their self-myths go tended to travel far and wide, be culturally very sophisticated. Modern Somerset (i.e. the last few centuries) on the other hand is known for being very backward, and for many people to be unfortunately rather closely inter-related. The achievements of the locals may not be as high as they might have been if they'd 'married' more often outside the family.

 

As for the whole Celtic thing. Glastonbury Tor remains a place of interest, but the town itself has been a messy melting pot of incomers for centuries. There's a lot of so-called Celtic myth, and indeed Joseph or Arimathea is alleged to have visited and planted a bush. However recently it has come to light (and there is documentation - I'm not just making shit up) that this and other 'ancient' myths were made up in the middle-ages by the Christian Abbey folk to secure fame and funding.

 

If we're talking 'energy' then Glastonbury and surroundings are interesting. The Tor still has a particular energy to it, which personally I feel is to do with the geology though I'm not an expert. The town is an energy mess though, and I keep shields up if I'm ever there. Because of the reputation of the place we've had all sorts of folk doing all sorts of magickal practices there for centuries., and they still pour in. It's a real mish mash with some quite pure spots and some really dark ones. IMHO Glastonbury isn't a place to do any cultivation any more, and probably hasn't been for 300 years.

 

 

I could've used the Kubler-Ross quote very early on in this conversation, but it was *my experience*, that I wanted to write about. NOT what E.Q.R. said *long before* my experience.

 

I'm DONE in this discussion with you.      D.A.D.

 

P.S. We're ALL "special snowflakes"!

 

Can I be clear? I respect your experience DAD. I don't doubt the NDE. I question the "I died" bit because you know, modern science. And also the life-after-death conclusions you drew from it.

 

 

 

That's not an EKR quote. You can't remember where you were, but you can remember what she said word for word? It's also 40 years ago. If you can find a credible reference anywhere else to her having said this then I'll be *very* happy to take it seriously. If you can find where she says what her proof is that would be awesome.

 

It's not much of a discussion though is it? I queried your belief in life-after-life and you got snitty. I pointed out that you're showing common signs of an unsupported awakening and there are healthy ways to handle it - which also rather neatly provide even more insight into How Stuff Works - you ignored it. You don't seem overly disposed towards rational discussion.

 

Edited to remove unwarranted fuckwittery. I'm sure DAD's Dad was a dude.

Edited August 31, 2016 by laughingblade

[Spotless]

I do not disagree with anyones personal experiences as being not real. pointing out that no one knows what happens after the body falls away is not a bad point. It is just not all about you, I apologize if you take my comments personally, not intended or implied.

Actually quite a few do know what happens after death. It is a rather large assumption that out of billions of people "no one knows".

[laughingblade]

Actually quite a few do know what happens after death. It is a rather large assumption that out of billions of people "no one knows".

 

It's a perfectly reasonable assumption that if nobody round here knows then it's no more likely that anybody else knows either.

 

actually

ˈaktjʊəli,-tʃʊ-

adverb

adverb: actually

1. 1.

   as the truth or facts of a situation.

   "we must pay attention to what young people are actually doing"
2. 2.

   used to emphasize that something someone has said or done is surprising.

   "he actually expected me to be pleased about it!"

      

      

I'd hoped you were using the second meaning of "actually', but unfortunately it seems not.

 

It's really really simply not OK, not reasonable, not correct, to assert that people know. Stop living in la-la-land and provide some proof, or some reliable path to verification. Mate I've been on this kick for 40 years - the proof just isn't there objectively, and of the practices that folk say get you such insight none of them work reliably except oddly enough for the cult leader.

 

Personally I have past life memories, I've had visits from dead relatives. I know people who've had visits from dead relatives before they even knew they were dead. None of it is absolutely cast-iron, and can all be explained simpler and more coherently based on stuff we DO know than by positing life after death, or rebirth of an individual.

 

And finally, a word from our sponsor:

"Isn't life hard enough without making shit up out of thin air to fuck with yourself?" - Bill Maher

 

Edited for Grandma

Edited August 31, 2016 by laughingblade

[Marblehead]

Almost: beliefs reside in the state of "woo", the unsupportable.

 

Actually if there's anything to your statement Marblehead (and I assume there is, cos you have a hat and all), then I wonder how we might differentiate between belief that can potentially manifest and belief that is and can only ever be unmanifest since it fails to meet any of the criteria for manifestation. How does the 'stuckness' of the latter express itself in a person, say?

 

In this case DAD experienced heart-stoppage, some OOBE/NDE during which there was a feeling of being loved. The feeling of peace and love has remained. This is great, valid, inspiring to some and worthy of further investigation to others. It's certainly worth taking seriously & there's no belief necessary. The unsupportable unmanifest woo part is the "therefore.. life after death is real".

 

Most here know that I am a Materialist.  I don't need to "believe".  It either "is" or "isn't".  Knowing the difference, of things that matter, allow me to live a good life.

 

Beyond the things that "are" and "aren't" there are the vast numbers of "possibilities".  Some of these I question but find no acceptable "is" or "isn't".  But most of these don't really matter to me so I never even question.

 

For me, verifiable "proof" is the bottom line.  If there is no proof then that whatever remains in the basket of "possibilities".

 

I have never had an OBE or NDE.  I have had a deja vu experience.  But it remains in the "possibility" basket.  And that's because I was never able to prove "is" or "isn't".

 

In my opinion what DAD experienced was the heart stopping but no death of the brain.  But this is, for me, is something in the "possibility" basket.

 

But for him it was real.  He apparently found enough support to put it into the "is" basket.

 

So sure, it is fine to question.  But let's ask, "Does it matter?"  It is, after all, "his" belief.

[laughingblade]

The claims about Elisabeth Kubler-Ross and proof of life after death intrigued me, so I had a look. I can't do Akashic Records (bad karma, no doubt) so I looked online.

 

The main claim seems to be that a passed-on client visited EKR in a ghostly form, and actually wrote a physical note as proof she'd been there.

 

This is one of the reports. Most tell the same story, not all with the crucial coda.

 

Here's the final section:

 

"Ross kept the note and later told the story to many friends and associates. She considered having fingerprint and handwriting experts examine the note to see if they matched up with the fingerprints and handwriting of Mrs. Schwartz, but she never got around to it and eventually gave the note to the Rev. Renford Gaines. Researcher Boyce Batey later contacted Gaines, who had changed his name to Mwalimu Imara, in line with his African heritage, at the Boston Center for Religion and Psychotherapy, Inc. Imara informed Batey that because of various confidentiality concerns relative to Mrs. Schwartz and her family, he could not provide a copy of the note. However, he provided Batey with the exact wording, viz. “Hello there, Dropped in to see Dr. Ross. One of two on the top of my ‘list’. You being the other. I’ll never find or know anyone to take the place of you two. I want you to know, as I’ve told her, I’m at peace at home now. I want you to know you helped me. The simple Thank you is not enough. But please know how much I mean it. Thank you again. Mary Schwartz. ”

 

So despite this awesome proof, EKR never got around to having the handwriting verified. Then later the person allegedly in possession of the note refused to make it available to be seen. Hmm...

[Marblehead]

The claims about Elisabeth Kubler-Ross and proof ...

I don't consider that "proof".  If I was interested and did the research it would likely end up in the "isn't" basket.  But I'll leave it for others to consider putting it in the "possible" basket.

[laughingblade]

I don't consider that "proof".

 

Me neither. Even if they produced the note and the handwriting checked out I'd still have wanted it written in the margins of a newspaper dated after the death. Or something.

 

And then we'd be like "wow ghosts!". And then we'd be like "how long does the ghost exist after death?" and then "so when does the ghost disappear and reincarnation happen?" and "is it time to start drinking yet?"

 

And THAT's why I should really be in the garden doing Zhàn Zhuāng.