Except that is only a story...

[Karl]

There is a Chuang Tzu story that speaks to having and giving.  I will paraphrase it:

 

Chuang Tzu had been off visiting with friends and returned home late and after dark.  Upon entering his home he spied a robber with some of his clothes in his arms.  Before either could say a word security knocked on the door and asked them if they had seen any strangers in the area as there had been reports of a robber.

 

Chuang Tzu replied, "No.  I was just giving my friend here some clothes I no longer need."

 

Security left and right away the robber left too.

 

Chuang Tzu sat down and thought, "I wish I had more I could have given to him."

Except that is only a story and it looks to me like the altruists have been fiddling with it. This is no different to the bible. Love the brother as thyself, turn the other cheek. This is the easiest way to get obedience from subjects. Just tell them they are better off poor, that this is the way to heaven. Meanwhile they inhabit grand palaces and employ armies of scribes to send out their propaganda amongst those who are foolish enough not to question.

[3bob]

lighten the hell up Karl..."Jesus Christ!" ;-)

[Marblehead]

Except that is only a story and it looks to me like the altruists have been fiddling with it. This is no different to the bible. Love the brother as thyself, turn the other cheek. This is the easiest way to get obedience from subjects. Just tell them they are better off poor, that this is the way to heaven. Meanwhile they inhabit grand palaces and employ armies of scribes to send out their propaganda amongst those who are foolish enough not to question.

Hehehe.  Where's you spirituality Karl?  I'm beginning to believe that you are more of a materialist (and realist) than I am.

 

But yes, there will always be the greedy who will do that.  Take advantage of the kindness of others.  Sad.

[Marblehead]

lighten the hell up Karl..."Jesus Christ!" ;-)

Hehehe.  Karl and I are fine.  He's telling his "truths".  His "realism" is pessimistic most of the time but as an anarchist I understand where he is coming from.  He likely has been challenged more often than we have.

 

Every now and then a little spirituality peeks out but he quickly hides it again.  I imagine there are valid reasons for that too.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Marblehead

[Karl]

Hehehe.  Where's you spirituality Karl?  I'm beginning to believe that you are more of a materialist (and realist) than I am.

 

But yes, there will always be the greedy who will do that.  Take advantage of the kindness of others.  Sad.

Take advantage of the ignorance of others you mean :-)

 

My spirituality is my ego. I like it very much and have sworn to protect it against anyone who would try and purloin it.

 

Of course I'm more of realist than you are, your philosophy is like a dry biscuit caught between the mouth and the stomach. ;-) in the nicest possible way. It suits you at present, but then you don't know what it might be like if you took a drink and washed it down. It might feel better, but then you might miss that irritation. Some just like it.

[Karl]

Hehehe.  Karl and I are fine.  He's telling his "truths".  His "realism" is pessimistic most of the time but as an anarchist I understand where he is coming from.  He likely has been challenged more often that we have.

 

Every now and then a little spirituality peeks out but he quickly hides it again.  I imagine there are valid reasons for that too.

There are valid reasons. Certain crutches help, but once they are regarded as truths then people begin to rely on them. It's hard to wean anyone off a crutch they believe they believe they don't have. So, when you say spirituality I would imply-in your terms-make believe/mysticism. A bit of the thing which ails can be a fine medicine, but too much is poison.

[3bob]

Karl, maybe Steven Colbert could help you with that...it doesn't seem many here can. 

[Karl]

Karl, maybe Steven Colbert could help you with that...it doesn't seem many here can.

 

Never heard of him. I keep my own counsel.

[Marblehead]

Take advantage of the ignorance of others you mean :-)

 

My spirituality is my ego. I like it very much and have sworn to protect it against anyone who would try and purloin it.

 

Of course I'm more of realist than you are, your philosophy is like a dry biscuit caught between the mouth and the stomach. ;-) in the nicest possible way. It suits you at present, but then you don't know what it might be like if you took a drink and washed it down. It might feel better, but then you might miss that irritation. Some just like it.

That's why I always keep wine in my fridge.

[Marblehead]

There are valid reasons. Certain crutches help, but once they are regarded as truths then people begin to rely on them. It's hard to wean anyone off a crutch they believe they believe they don't have. So, when you say spirituality I would imply-in your terms-make believe/mysticism. A bit of the thing which ails can be a fine medicine, but too much is poison.

No, I'm not talking about unfounded beliefs or mysticism.  More at the optimism of knowing that things could be better; that life could be better for so very many.  The potential exists.  But it is the competition, greed, selfishness, etc. that is preventing it.  And these problems exist not only with the wealthy but within most societies.

 

There are exceptions though, of course.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Marblehead

[Karl]

Sure thing, I get it:

 

[Marblehead]

Waiting for something one desires is not as good as going after what is desired.

[Karl]

No, I'm not talking about unfounded beliefs or mysticism.  More at the optimism of knowing that things could be better; that life could be better for so very many.  The potential exists.  But it is the competition, greed, selfishness, etc. that is preventing it.  And these problems exist no only with the wealthy but within most societies.

 

There are exceptions though, of course.

You could choose to see it as it is, not as you believe it to be.

 

I don't see it as you do. Selfishness, competition are life and productivity. they are the freedom to live, think and produce. There is no other way no matter how it is sliced, every attempt to harness it has been made by men who feared freedom and did not wish to produce. People think of that as harsh, that the universe is malevolent and that men's souls are black; but I see it as dynamic, spiritual life operating in a benevolent universe. Life is tough but something, death is easy and nothing. Existence is and non existence is not. We get to chose and that's the beauty of it. Not all lives are pleasant, but neither are all lives unpleasant. Some thank and some curse.

[Karl]

Waiting for something one desires is not as good as going after what is desired.

Very true, but then we must first know what we desire, why we desire it, what it will do and how we can get it. These things aren't always the easiest to determine.

[Marblehead]

I don't see it as you do. Selfishness, competition are life and productivity. they are the freedom to live, think and produce. There is no other way no matter how it is sliced, every attempt to harness it has been made by men who feared freedom and did not wish to produce. People think of that as harsh, that the universe is malevolent and that men's souls are black; but I see it as dynamic, spiritual life operating in a benevolent universe. Life is tough but something, death is easy and nothing. Existence is and non existence is not. We get to chose and that's the beauty of it. Not all lives are pleasant, but neither are all lives unpleasant. Some thank and some curse.

Yeah, we have a difference in understanding with this one.

 

I will never suggest total socialism or any other kind of forced societal living.

 

I have always been a person who did his best at whatever he attempted.  I had failures.  There are things I am not capable of doing. 

 

Productivity presents value. But there is always that concept of "fair compensation".  And, of course, of governments (non-productive) taking too much of the productivity and wasting it.

[Karl]

Yeah, we have a difference in understanding with this one.

 

I will never suggest total socialism or any other kind of forced societal living.

 

I have always been a person who did his best at whatever he attempted.  I had failures.  There are things I am not capable of doing. 

 

Productivity presents value. But there is always that concept of "fair compensation".  And, of course, of governments (non-productive) taking too much of the productivity and wasting it.

Compensation is a facet of justice, of judgement. I would ask 'compensation for what'? If we need compensation then we must in some sense judge ourselves victims of someone. Fairness is subjective mysticism, there is justice, truth, productivity, honesty, integrity and the use of the mind to see this rationally.

[Marblehead]

But justice doesn't work well either.  WTF?!

[Karl]

But justice doesn't work well either.  WTF?!

We judge the values of things to us, with our internal scales. Justice, as in law, has to be objective or it can't work. This is what I have been saying, we can't have floating abstract law/justice. We have to arrive at laws not by whim but by reason and reason must be proven by direct perception of material existence. The leaves, to the roots and Earth. Laws and judgement have to be defined by reality even if they are conceptual. The tree has to grow in some-thing, it cannot float languidly in the air. Whenever we act from whim, or emotion we get into a bloody great mess, our judgements go south and justice is just a meaningless noise.

[rene]

Waiting for something one desires is not as good as going after what is desired.

Which of those two choices is more likely to allow the opportunity for something even better to occur? I've found that what comes is usually way cooler than my original idea, heh (-:

[3bob]

a spin off of that: since life turns on a dime don't pass the buck when it turns up tails and don't gloat when it turns up heads.

[3bob]

Never heard of him. I keep my own counsel.

A westerner that's never heard of Steven Colbert must be living under a rock or someplace like the Yukon territories?   No biggy though...

[Marblehead]

Which of those two choices is more likely to allow the opportunity for something even better to occur? I've found that what comes is usually way cooler than my original idea, heh (-:

Hehehe.  Your life experiences are obviously different from mine.

[Marblehead]

A westerner that's never heard of Steven Colbert must be living under a rock or someplace like the Yukon territories?   No biggy though...

They don't show Steven in the UK.  He would put all the UK comedians out of business.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Marblehead

[3bob]

didn't know that MH, sounds like their loss