Questions about the Neidan firing process

[BrightMoon]

Hey everyone,

 

I'm curious for those who have personal experience or knowledge about the neidan firing process - focusing on the lower dantian while contracting the lower abdominal muscles and the perineum during inhale to build chi in this dantian, etc.  I'm not sure if it has an actual name or not.  I can find very little on this practice on the internet.

 

Specifically, I'm curious what the benefits and purpose are both to this practice, and the effects in general in daily life, and whether the practice is really necessary for the rest of the neidan process.

 

Any idea?

 

My current twice daily practice is Mantak Chia's version of the microcosmic orbit (focusing on the accupuncture points along the ren and do, one by one).  That's usually it, because the couple of times I've added Zuowang at the end of it, I've had very intense experiences, so I'm somewhat loath to include it as a regular feature. (The first time, I saw what appeared to be a white moon without craters in the darkness, except that it was as bright as the sun.  And the second time, I felt as if my whole body was rising, and then I had very strong experiences of spacial/bodily distortion, and then it felt as if my whole body was sinking.)

 

Any information on this would be cool.  I learned about the technique from Damo Mitchell's latest neidan book. 

[Daeluin]

Damo's book gives the clearest explanations I've found. A lot of the questions you ask are answered in it.

 

I don't think this is something one should go far with without complete sincerity and the humility to surrender and flow with where they are guided.

 

One's spirit is the caretaker of one's soul, and neidan is a process of putting the soul back together again so that it may return to dao - there isn't any room for any deviance on the part of the spirit, or the soul ends up drawn into different dynamics as mentioned in the book's classification of types of immortals.

 

If you are looking for personal experiences to share I'm afraid I am not that far along, but it sounds like Damo holds retreats and answers emails. Where sincerity is, the way is open. Blessings to your way.

[Taoist Texts]

Hey everyone,

 

I'm curious for those who have personal experience or knowledge about the neidan firing process - focusing on the lower dantian while contracting the lower abdominal muscles and the perineum during inhale to build chi in this dantian, etc.  I'm not sure if it has an actual name or not. 

 

No, it does not because it is an imitation not the original. It has many different made-up names, though.

 

 

Specifically, I'm curious what the benefits and purpose are both to this practice, and the effects in general in daily life, and whether the practice is really necessary for the rest of the neidan process.

 

 

Not many benefits there, except somewhat enhanced well-being for a while, it has side effects, sometimes thrilling, sometimes really bad for your health. Its a disjointed and partial imitation of real neidan, the latter being a secret.

 

Any idea?

 

My current twice daily practice is Mantak Chia's version of the microcosmic orbit (focusing on the accupuncture points along the ren and do, one by one).  That's usually it, because the couple of times I've added Zuowang at the end of it, I've had very intense experiences, so I'm somewhat loath to include it as a regular feature. (The first time, I saw what appeared to be a white moon without craters in the darkness, except that it was as bright as the sun.  And the second time, I felt as if my whole body was rising, and then I had very strong experiences of spacial/bodily distortion, and then it felt as if my whole body was sinking.)

 

 

You can read about real neidan, including the symptoms you have experienced here

 

http://thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/

 

On the state of neidan in general here

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40543-misconceptions-of-qigong-neidan-alchemy-20/

 

 

 

 

Any information on this would be cool.  I learned about the technique from Damo Mitchell's latest neidan book. 

 

You have experienced beneficent symptoms because you are either young or have aged well, otherwise you would have hurt yourself following his instructions. Both Chia and Mitchell are ignorants re neidan, trading in second-hand falsities.That said, the latter is just an obnoxious profiteer, while Chia has good qigong manuals.

[Daeluin]

Taoist Texts, have you read White Moon on the Mountain Peak? I've found it refreshingly clear and humble, and in resonance with much of what I've read in texts. He is clear about what he has achieved and where he believes this fits into the process of neidan. In past books I detected a sense of ego, in this one I do not. Perhaps it does not line up perfectly for you, but for me it has helped clarify certain parts of the classics. Questions remain, yet there is overall greater clarity.

 

The technique BrightMoon describes is greatly elaborated upon in the book, and it is clear that this is a tool to be practiced at a certain stage in the work after one has perfected the previous stages. It is also clear what this tool is designed to do, and how to work with it to accomplish that.

 

IMO.

[Taoist Texts]

Taoist Texts, have you read White Moon on the Mountain Peak? ...

 

it has helped clarify certain parts of the classics. Questions remain, yet there is overall greater clarity.

On your question I flipped through it on googlebooks. No pleasant surprises there.

 

Terrific. I am glad that it works for you, complementing your teacher's guidance, i guess.

[joeblast]

tt....ah, the importance of the turtle, the rabbit, and the rooster in the huo hou tu

 

 

anyway..

 

mco is supposed to brim out from inside, right?

 

start yer engines

 

(this set looks to the right for fire path)

 

 

 

the firing process does not contain set times

the winter solstice is not in december

as for the rules for bathing, spring and autumn

are metaphors without reality

Edited September 4, 2016 by joeblast

[BrightMoon]

Yes, questions regarding this technique are in reference to Damo Mitchell's White Moon on a Mountain Peak.  I've read the book a few times now, and have re-read passages regarding this technique many times, but he does not answer these questions, which is why I've chosen to ask this forum.  Perhaps I've missed some important information in the book, though.  All that I can gather is that this is a pre-requisite for practicing zuowang, but I can't seem to find concrete answers as to why, other than "watching" the process of energy circulating is, itself, the practice of zuowang as Damo describes it.  Yet everything else I've read regarding zuowang has little to do with watching the energy circulate, specifically, but rather watching and listening mindfully to all internal experiences.  Damo doesn't mention any specific benefits to this practice besides accumulated vitality that produces a noticeably healthy glow to the face.  If the benefits extend beyond pretty faces, they aren't mentioned as far as I can tell.

 

I think why I'm asking if this technique is necessary is because I want to know if it can be reasonably bypassed.  The few times I've tried it, the heat caused me to sweat and made my brain "hot".  And with a hot head, I found it difficult to control my general human passions, including a stubborn old penchant for engaging people on the internet in arguments.  I've come to appreciate Mantak Chia's techniques, because it someone cools and controls the passions and produces a refreshing and creamy texture to the fabric of daily experiences.  But I haven't yet found any indication that it leads to more beyond that -- perhaps those are still forthcoming, or perhaps not.

 

The only other source that describes Damo's technique is YMAA, Yang, Jwing Ming (http://ymaa.com/articles/2014/1/nei-dan-sitting-meditation), and I read through a couple of his books that are supposed to go into detail regarding this, yet I found the material poorly composed and lacking in instruction or references to personal experience.

 

Thank you for all of your responses.  I've appreciated them and will investigate them more fully.

[Daeluin]

Just a guess, that much of the sitting work and Sung Breathing he describes as a prerequisite is designed to release the tension that leads to what you describe. When the tension is released the body naturally begins to align and create that pyramid structure he is talking about, which I imagine is related to the xing work, which is related to calming the shen. If you are impatient and asking what steps may be skipped, perhaps your shen are not calm enough.

 

The process at this stage seems related to building a natural foundation within the lower dan tien that will begin to spin and work its way up the spine on its own when the correct foundation has been reached. One of the criticisms about Mantak Chia's instructions in certain books is that people tend to try to force energies up their spines to make the microcosmic orbit flow, and people here are frequently corrected that this is something that will begin to happen on its own more naturally as one builds the foundation. These practices may be useful while one is preparing the body and clearing blockages in the spine, but I'd be careful about trying to force a mechanism that is working with more potent alchemized energies, especially when the practice of alchemizing these energies is already causing some concern and instability. Usually this is a sign one needs to spend more time shoring up one's foundational practices rather than skipping steps.

 

In any case I am taking my time with all of this and you are well ahead of me. I'm just putting together what I read in texts and the little glimpses I've had in neigong training and what people talk about here, and what I glean from past lives. The more things resonate with great clarity, the easier it is to trust the steps one takes. That said, I don't really know anything - please trust your self and be cautious. Please also be careful about mixing techniques - there are many ways and they don't always compliment each other. I hope you get the answers you need - I often find them within.

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

mco is supposed to brim out from inside, right? 

In a manner of speaking yes, but.

 

the firing process ...

are metaphors without reality

 

Exactly. 

[idquest]

I think why I'm asking if this technique is necessary is because I want to know if it can be reasonably bypassed.  The few times I've tried it, the heat caused me to sweat and made my brain "hot".  And with a hot head, I found it difficult to control my general human passions, including a stubborn old penchant for engaging people on the internet in arguments.

 

My understanding is that this technique is common in the general framework in what is referred to as Liu Donbing teaching, which is pretty much one of the very few that survived cultural revolution in China. You should note though that different teachers will surround this technique with quite a number of supplementary practices. Mitchell, for instance, highly recommends intense practice of neigong and daoyin before even attempting neidan. When I say intense it means 1-2 hours a day for 2-3 years as a minimum. In other words, if you want to study within Liu Donbing framework, sooner or later you'll have to do it.

 

As for 'hot head' - as I understood from your post you have your willpower amplified to a certain unpleasant extreme - this is likely to be a result of LDT work which in fact means that your work with the technique has had results. You could mitigate this working on an 'ethical level' as a separate practice, but if this makes you really unhappy - this would mean this practice could be not for you at this point in life.

[BrightMoon]

No, it does not because it is an imitation not the original. It has many different made-up names, though.

 

 

 

Not many benefits there, except somewhat enhanced well-being for a while, it has side effects, sometimes thrilling, sometimes really bad for your health. Its a disjointed and partial imitation of real neidan, the latter being a secret.

 

 

You can read about real neidan, including the symptoms you have experienced here

 

http://thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/

 

On the state of neidan in general here

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40543-misconceptions-of-qigong-neidan-alchemy-20/

 

 

 

 

You have experienced beneficent symptoms because you are either young or have aged well, otherwise you would have hurt yourself following his instructions. Both Chia and Mitchell are ignorants re neidan, trading in second-hand falsities.That said, the latter is just an obnoxious profiteer, while Chia has good qigong manuals.

 

Taoist Text, do you have resources you can recommend regarding Daoist meditation systems/nei dan that you highly prize, which are straight forward and instructional?

[RiverSnake]

Sounds like some Tummo like practices that you may be referencing. Using the locks and breath to create internal heat. Sexual Sorcery by Jason Miller has some good techniques in there regarding cultivating Inner Fire for alchemical purposes. The Bliss of Inner Fire by Lama Thubten Yeshe is also quite good. 

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

"I'm curious for those who have personal experience or knowledge about the neidan firing process - focusing on the lower dantian while contracting the lower abdominal muscles and the perineum during inhale to build chi in this dantian, etc.  I'm not sure if it has an actual name or not.  I can find very little on this practice on the internet."

 

 

This is not a type of Nei Dan practice, it is just wrong. wrong all the way!

 

 

I feel it is unethical to not speak up about this topic, so I will try to elucidate a bit about how Neidan works here so that you won't fall into the trap of destructive and injurious practices:

 

Firstly, the concept of firing is not native to neidan.   The degree to which intention is placed in the dantian can be best described using Laozi's small fish analogy.   You should never put so much intention that you clench any muscles.  Muscles might react on their own as a result of the meridians doing things, but you shouldn't be trying to engage them at all.

 

Neidan essentially has three big features that make it work:

 

1: emptiness:  the mind should always be set to quiet, emptiness, and relaxation.  If thoughts come up, just ignore them and they will go away.  You should feel open, free, and non constrained.

2: intention is what ties the mind and essence together.  Most schools place the intention generally in the lower abdomen near the dantian, although some place it a little lower in the Qi xue point, and some schools place the intention between the eyebrows in the ancestor oracle, but generally speaking, generally keeping a soft focus on the lower dantian is the safest way.

3:  the intention can become "warmer" or "cooler" depending on what you want to do.  usually at the start of practice, people will use a bit more intention, but when the body relaxes and the Qi moves in the body, usually people will try to focus more on emptiness.

 

It is much better to focus on quiet and emptiness first and then once you can make the mind totally quiet, you can focus on the dantian more.  Don't use any special physical method like pulling up your asshole or tucking your belly, these are useless and can hurt you.   Qi is a combination of the mind refining an empty place, not from a physical practice.  

It is very important to enter into the pre heaven state, which is the time when the mind, the qi, and the jing are all held together chaotically as one.  There is no thought to think, no sound to hear, no sight to see.  It is just quiet and turbid.  This is when the energy of the body is sorting itself out, you need to get out of the way of the process and just let it happen.

Neidan isn't about you controlling the process, but rather about starting the process and adjusting it as things happen.

Please don't do breathing exercises like pulling in the abdomen while focusing on the dantian and testicles, it is really not very good for your health.

[damdao]

"I'm curious for those who have personal experience or knowledge about the neidan firing process - focusing on the lower dantian while contracting the lower abdominal muscles and the perineum during inhale to build chi in this dantian, etc.  I'm not sure if it has an actual name or not.  I can find very little on this practice on the internet."

 

 

This is not a type of Nei Dan practice, it is just wrong. wrong all the way!

 

 

I wouldn't say that it is wrong all the way but to me it seems more like the pot belly breath and the condensing breath from the gtummo exercises and others tibetan buddhist teachings (including tibetan techniques taught in China as a kind of buddhist qigong).

So, I see it more like tibetan buddhism than neidan.

If you want to do it, I think that could be better try to find a teacher first.

[Daeluin]

So, again I am not very far along.

 

My intuition is happy and excited about this development, as I sense it touches upon a key distinction - the internal and external medicines.

 

The chapter in Mitchell's book very much parallels chapter 5 in this book, right down to the principles elaborated upon and applied in the practice. I feel the main difference here is the use of the external elixir in the orbit vs the internal elixir in the orbit. The external elixir seems to require a little more work on the physical layer, and after it arises to the top of the head yields the jade medicine in the saliva which one circulates back down to the lower dan tien, where it can then merge with the internal elixir.

 

I think this is a key distinction, but I don't have a great deal of clarity yet about the difference between these practices, or if the one's which don't emphasize this particular method with the external elixir arrive at the same place via different means. Hence the care one must take when mixing methods without having fully investigated principle.

 

It could be helpful if any are open to bringing more clarity to this practice for those of us who are uncertain. In the end whatever emerges or does not is the will of dao. It is noted in this book that discussions of the firing process are the ones that are among the most hidden. Today some of these practices are emerging publicly and causing confusion, so it is good for people to be cautious.

 

Edit: See next post after I studied a bit more on the particulars of the external medicine / mother of the elixir.

[BrightMoon]

So, again I am not very far along.

 

My intuition is happy and excited about this development, as I sense it touches upon a key distinction - the internal and external medicines.

 

The chapter in Mitchell's book very much parallels chapter 5 in this book, right down to the principles elaborated upon and applied in the practice. I feel the main difference here is the use of the external elixir in the orbit vs the internal elixir in the orbit. The external elixir seems to require a little more work on the physical layer, and after it arises to the top of the head yields the jade medicine in the saliva which one circulates back down to the lower dan tien, where it can then merge with the internal elixir.

 

I think this is a key distinction, but I don't have a great deal of clarity yet about the difference between these practices, or if the one's which don't emphasize this particular method with the external elixir arrive at the same place via different means. Hence the care one must take when mixing methods without having fully investigated principle.

 

It could be helpful if any are open to bringing more clarity to this practice for those of us who are uncertain. In the end whatever emerges or does not is the will of dao. It is noted in this book that discussions of the firing process are the ones that are among the most hidden. Today some of these practices are emerging publicly and causing confusion, so it is good for people to be cautious.

 

Could you clarify and extrapolate on "the external elixir in the orbit" and its methods vs. the internal elixir?  I understand the internal elixir as chi refining itself in orbit from course to fine and from fine into stillness, however I'm unsure of what an external elixir would be.  But my understanding is rudimentary and limited to prior experience in other systems other than daoism.

[Taoist Texts]

Taoist Text, do you have resources you can recommend regarding Daoist meditation systems/nei dan that you highly prize, which are straight forward and instructional?

Hi. Sure

 

https://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Yoga-Kuan-Charles-Luk/dp/0877280673

 

http://www.goldenelixir.com/press/tao_01_foundations.html

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41105-recorded-sayings-of-a-true-man-ma-dan-yang/

[BrightMoon]

"I'm curious for those who have personal experience or knowledge about the neidan firing process - focusing on the lower dantian while contracting the lower abdominal muscles and the perineum during inhale to build chi in this dantian, etc.  I'm not sure if it has an actual name or not.  I can find very little on this practice on the internet."

 

 

This is not a type of Nei Dan practice, it is just wrong. wrong all the way!

 

 

I feel it is unethical to not speak up about this topic, so I will try to elucidate a bit about how Neidan works here so that you won't fall into the trap of destructive and injurious practices:

 

Firstly, the concept of firing is not native to neidan.   The degree to which intention is placed in the dantian can be best described using Laozi's small fish analogy.   You should never put so much intention that you clench any muscles.  Muscles might react on their own as a result of the meridians doing things, but you shouldn't be trying to engage them at all.

 

Neidan essentially has three big features that make it work:

 

1: emptiness:  the mind should always be set to quiet, emptiness, and relaxation.  If thoughts come up, just ignore them and they will go away.  You should feel open, free, and non constrained.

2: intention is what ties the mind and essence together.  Most schools place the intention generally in the lower abdomen near the dantian, although some place it a little lower in the Qi xue point, and some schools place the intention between the eyebrows in the ancestor oracle, but generally speaking, generally keeping a soft focus on the lower dantian is the safest way.

3:  the intention can become "warmer" or "cooler" depending on what you want to do.  usually at the start of practice, people will use a bit more intention, but when the body relaxes and the Qi moves in the body, usually people will try to focus more on emptiness.

 

It is much better to focus on quiet and emptiness first and then once you can make the mind totally quiet, you can focus on the dantian more.  Don't use any special physical method like pulling up your asshole or tucking your belly, these are useless and can hurt you.   Qi is a combination of the mind refining an empty place, not from a physical practice.  

It is very important to enter into the pre heaven state, which is the time when the mind, the qi, and the jing are all held together chaotically as one.  There is no thought to think, no sound to hear, no sight to see.  It is just quiet and turbid.  This is when the energy of the body is sorting itself out, you need to get out of the way of the process and just let it happen.

Neidan isn't about you controlling the process, but rather about starting the process and adjusting it as things happen.

Please don't do breathing exercises like pulling in the abdomen while focusing on the dantian and testicles, it is really not very good for your health.

 

This doesn't sound any different from other systems of meditation.  Then what is the purpose of all of this generating hot, bubbling chi and leading up and down the do and ren, and all of the other things described in this book?  In this light, it seems rather silly, as there are far easier methods to cultivate energy and commingle the essential qualities of concentration and mindfulness necessary to enter the immaterial jhanas/samadhi/dao.  If that is really all this is doing, then these instructions seem like a fool's venture, chasing after different experiences rather than simply cultivating and moving through the various jhanas (as per my prior experience).

[BrightMoon]

Hi. Sure

 

https://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Yoga-Kuan-Charles-Luk/dp/0877280673

 

http://www.goldenelixir.com/press/tao_01_foundations.html

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41105-recorded-sayings-of-a-true-man-ma-dan-yang/

 

Thanks.  I've read Taoist yoga a few times before, but not while practicing more specifically doaist-ish techniques as I am now.  I'm going to go and review it again, as well as look into those other works.  I'm enjoying the translation of The Secret of the Golden Flower you posted above.  It's much more useful and understandable than the Cleary version I read almost a decade ago.  I also enjoyed your post on nei dan practitioners, even if it was a rather scathing look in the mirror.

[Daeluin]

Could you clarify and extrapolate on "the external elixir in the orbit" and its methods vs. the internal elixir?  I understand the internal elixir as chi refining itself in orbit from course to fine and from fine into stillness, however I'm unsure of what an external elixir would be.  But my understanding is rudimentary and limited to prior experience in other systems other than daoism.

 

Sorry, I meant medicines, not elixirs. The external elixir is known as the mother of the elixir, and the transmutation of jing to qi, the 3 becoming 2, all explained in Foundations of Internal Alchemy, which I highly recommend reading.

 

So I've been trying to understand why some schools seem to emphasize this tummo-style heat generation described in Damio's book and why some do not. My sense is that it is related to the stage of building the foundation, and that there are slightly different approaches. At different stages of life one has different levels of jing available for working with, so perhaps this work is related to replenishment at the physical layer.

 

Here is an excerpt from Foundations which might offer some insight in how different schools apply the principles:

 

3. Terms Related to the "Coagulation of the Three Treasures"

 

"Refining" (lian 楝)

 

The term "refining" derives from Waidan (External Alchemy). In Waidan, the ingredients are refined by fire. In Neidan (Internal Alchemy), instead, Essence (jing) is refined by Spirit (shen). Therefore Spirit is represented by Fire, and Essence is represented by Water. "Refining Water by means of Fire" is equivalent to saying that Spirit leads Breath and refines the Essence.

 

The word "refining" applies to all four stages of the Alchemical practice: "laying the foundations," "refining Essence to transmute it into Spirit," and "refining Spirit to return to Emptiness." In this section, however, I will discuss "refining" only in relation to "laying the foundations."

 

In Waidan, the basic meaning of the word lian (楝) is "to refine by heating." Neidan borrows this word as a metaphor for self-cultivation. After the human body has gone past the age of childhood, Essence, Breath, and Spirit are damaged; therefore they should be replenished before one can start compounding the Medicine. Although the refining of Spirit pertains to the practice of Xing (Nature), and the refining of Essence and Breath pertains to the practice of Ming (Life), at the initial stage of the practice, Xing and Ming should be cultivated together.

 

Refining the Spirit is the same as refining the Heart. Lu Dongbin says in the Changdao zhenyan (True Words Chanting the Dao):

 

Before you refined the Elixir, you must refine your Heart. The method of refining the Heart is the dharma-gate (famen) to clarity and quiescence (qingjing), through the elimination of idle thoughts and deceiving concepts.

 

These words highlight the practice of "sitting in quiescence" (jingzuo). Bai Yuchan said:

 

The Dao takes having no-mind as the substance, forgetting words as the operation, being yielding and weak as the root, and being clear and quiescent as the foundation.

 

In his Secret Text of Green Florescence, Zhang Boduan says:

 

When the Heart is harmonious, Breath is harmonious; when Breath is harmonious, the form is harmonious; when the form is harmonious, Heaven and Earth respond with their harmony.

 

Then he continues by saying that seeking the harmony of the Heart lies in the single word "quiescence." If, on seeing or hearing something, one does not experience joy or anger, one can bring one's Heart to quiescence. Zhang Boduan concludes by saying:

 

The oral instructions say: When the eyes do not see in a disordered way, Spirit returns to the Heart. When Spirit returns to the Heart, this is the foundation of quiescence.

 

Here Zhang Boduan maintains that collecting the Heart and the Breath is the focal point of the initial stage of the practice. This is in agreement with the methods of the Northern Lineage (Beizong).

 

When the Heart is calm, the Breath is harmonious; therefore refining the Spirit is the same as refining the Breath. Refining the Breath, in turn, is equivalent to refining the Spirit: each supports and completes the other, and each is the operation of the other. The practice of "harmonizing the breathing" that we have discussed in one of the previous sections consists in refining the Breath, and corresponds to the teaching found in the poem of Awakening to Reality quoted above: "Just settle the breathing of the Spirit and rely on the celestial spontaneity."

 

With regard to "laying the foundations," the Southern Lineage differs from the Northern Lineage in the emphasis placed on harmonizing, replenishing, and refining the Original Essence. Its masters maintain that, while  the state of strength or weakness differs from person to person, in all cases after childhood the Original Essence is subjected to damage. Therefore it should be furthered by means of practices of harmonization. Only then can Original Essence be replenished and become the "mother of the Elixir" (danmu). What is the Original Essence? It is the source of the flourishing life force (shengming li), the dynamism of the incipience and youth; it is related to the vital functions and the internal secretions (fenbi). When it is harmonized and replenished by means of the alchemical process, then Essence is abundant, Breath is full, and Spirit flourishes. The Three Treasures coagulate with one another and form the Medicine, and one begins the practices of the Barrier of the Hundred Days.

 

 

So greater emphasis is placed on Yuan Jing by the Southern Lineage, but Foundations does not describe any process that involves the intense heat generated by Tummo practices, rather, it emphasizes the opposite - that the refining is done by the fire of the heart through harmonization and quiescence.

 

Consulting The Teachings of Immortals Chung and Lu translated by Eva Wong, we come to a chapter on Refining the Body. First let me caution readers about consulting this book. It is full of many complicated terms which describe a highly detailed and intricate process that can lead to confusion. It invites one to read into how many specific principles might be applied within various stages to make full benefit of the entire neidan process. Parts of this translation have also been criticized - there is another here - but I think the principles are clear enough when compared with other texts.... is hard to find a perfect translation.

 

"It is unthinkable that those who follow the Tao would cultivate yang but neglect yin. It is equally unbelievable that they would refine the self but forget about the substantive body. When the primordial vapor first enters the embryo, the vapors of our father and mother are at rest. Generative essence and blood enclose the fetus, and the entire bundle is stored inside the mother's place of pure yin. When yin is born within yin, a body will create another body. Even when the fetus is mature and is filled with vapor, it is still yin in nature. Even if it grows to six feet tall, it has  within it only one spark of primordial yang. If you want to cultivate longevity, you must first refine the body so that you can survive the kalpas [karmic catastrophes] in the earthly realm. If you want to transcend the mundane and enter the sacred, you must refine the body and transmute it into vapor and then use your own body to create another body."

 

Lu said:

 

"The body is a manifestation of yin. Therefore yin has a form. Using form to attain the formless, we can transmute the body into vapor. In this way the mundane body is transformed into the sacred body. You say that this is the highest method of refining the body. First we use the body to retain the vapor; then we use the vapor to nourish it. Even if we manage to reap only small benefits from our cultivation, we will be able to live a healthy and long life. However, if we can reap large benefits, we will be able to retain our bodily form forever in the earthly realm. The old will become young and the young can maintain their youth and live a long life.

 

"There are three hundred sixty years in one great life cycle, thirty-six thousand years in one kalpa, and thirty-six thousand kalpas in one great kalpa. However, no one knows when the great kalpa will occur. Therefore, to be able to last as long as the sky and the earth and survive the kalpas, we must learn how to refine and preserve the body. Can you tell me how the body can be refined, how the transmutations are accomplished, and what the effects are?"

 

Chung said:

 

"In three hundred days the fetus will mature and the body will be developed completely. After birth the vapor will fill the body. The average height of a person is five feet five inches [Chinese measurement]: it is patterned after the numerics of the creation and completion of the five elements. Some are taller and some are shorter, but in general, people do not vary much from this measurement. The region above the heart is called the nine heavens and the region below the kidneys is called the nine earths. The distance between the kidneys and the heart is eight and four-tenths inches. Between the heart and the first level of the pagoda, the distance is again eight and four-tenths inches, and between the first level of the pagoda and the top of the head, the distance is also eight and four-tenths inches. From the kidneys to the crown of the head, the distance is two feet five and two-tenths inches. The primordial vapor reaches its maximum flow once every twenty-four hours [one day and one night] and travels a circuit of three hundred twenty measures. Each measure is equivalent to two feet five and two-tenths inches. Adding up to eighty-one [Chinese] cubits of primordial yang, the circuit is patterned exactly after the pure yang numerics of nine multiplied by nine. The distance between the heart and the kidneys is patterned after the structure of the sky and the earth. The distance from the kidneys to the crown of the head is two feet five inches and is patterned after the numerics of the five elements and the pure yang numeric of five multiplied by five.

 

"Primordial vapor is exhaled with exhalation. When it is exhaled, it will move unhindered to guard the body. The true vapor of the sky and the earth moves with the seasons and the changes in the weather. Moving to and from each other, they follow definite distances. The true vapor is inhaled with inhalation. When it enters the body, the meridians and the vessel pathways will be open. In one cycle of exhalation and inhalation, the true vapor of the sky, earth, and humanity will flow in and out of the twelve-story pagoda. Together, one inhalation and one exhalation are called one breath. During the period of one day and one night, there are thirteen thousand five hundred exhalations and thirteen thousand five hundred inhalations. That which is exhaled is our own primordial vapor and that which is inhaled is the true vapor of the sky and the earth. When the vapors of the sky and the earth flow into our body, the foundation of our root and source will be strengthened, and when the root is strong, the primordial vapor of the body will not dissipate. In one breath the true vapor of the sky and the earth can be absorbed to refine our vapor and be directed to the four directions in the body. When what is pure is strong, impurities will disappear and the circulation will flow unhindered. Vertically the vapor will thrust through the meridians; horizontally it will penetrate the vessel pathways. When this occurs, the body will feel invigorated and will not be harmed by head or cold, or injured by labor. The bones will be strong, the body will feel light and unencumbered, an the breath will be pure and fresh. The true vapor is capable of keeping us young and healthy and can add years to our lives. However, if the foundation of our root and source is not strong, above, the primordial vapor will dissipate, and below, the palace of the origin cannot be repaired. The vapor we inhale from the sky and the earth will leak out of the body as soon as it enters. Eighty-one cubits of primordial vapor, as well as the numeric of nine multiplied by nine, will be lost. The vapor will not be ours to keep; instead it will be taken back by the sky and the earth. If we cannot capture the true vapor of the sky and the earth and keep it within, with time yin will accumulate and yang will decay. When the vapor within us is weak, we will get sick. When the vapor is completely dissipated, we will die and sink into countless cycles of reincarnation."

 

Lu asked:

 

"How can we prevent the vapor of primordial yang from leaking out so that we can use it to refine our body? How can we capture the true vapor of the sky and the earth so that we can survive the kalpas?"

 

Chung said:

 

"If you want to win a battle, you will need a strong army. If you want the people to be contented, the nation must be wealthy. In the body the primordial vapor is the army. When it stands guard inside, it will rid the body of yin; when it moves out, it will capture the true vapor of the sky and the earth. The body is like a country. If the country is rich, every citizen will be fed. Like a country, if the body is strong, it will lack nothing. Even if all the doors are open, nothing will be lost. If the circulation is unhindered, the body will be replenished mysteriously. When the circulation moves between the front and the back, form will be refined and the heat will engulf the body. When it moves up and down, vapor will nurture the yang and purge the yin. Ch'ien and k'un will be heated according to schedule, and vapor and fluid will be tempered daily.

 

 

This seems to refer to the process we've been discussing, and makes clear the reason some schools work with this process and some do not, which seems to be related to whether or not these schools care about refining the body or only about spiritual freedom.  It goes on to describe the benefits of using the medicines/elixirs to refine the body, which doesn't seem relevant to our immediate discussion.

 

It is not surprising that there is some confusion related to this, as the processes related to working with the ming (命 life-existence-essence, as compared to xing 性 spirit-nature), some say are difficult to find teachings on and may have been somewhat lost. Given the implications these arts could have on use for real-world ambitions, this is not surprising. Hopefully with these practices beginning to emerge in more public fashions, we can openly use them for a healing that is greatly needed for our species and the entire web of life we have been depending upon.

 

Regarding critique of the methods described in Mitchel's book, I hope it has been given a read first - what is described in this thread is somewhat incomplete, and yet the book is rather careful about what is described.  Emphasis is placed on the gentleness and subtleness that is employed when using any part of the physical body, and that things should not be forced. Indications are given to help guide cultivators towards finding the correct ways to do the process and how to identify when steps have been missed or when one is not refined enough. In particular there is warning against allowing poison fire to taint the heart, on page 179. It is possible this could be related to getting a "hot head and having trouble controlling one's passions" mentioned earlier in the thread. In Foundations I came across something that also might be relate to this, attributed to Zhu Yanyu:

 

The secret of the Fire Times uniquely consists in the True Intention (zhenyi). Essentially, thoughts should not arise; if they arise, the Fire would scorch. The Intention should not disperse; if it disperses, the Fire would chill. No single thought should arise, and the single Intention should not disperse. One should time their movement and their quiescence, and control their cold and their heat. This is how one should practice the Fire Times.

 

In today's society I do not think the level of purity required for these practices can be over emphasized. Just as in chemistry (waidan), the slightest impurity can create explosions and bad things. Internal alchemy follows the same principles.

 

BrightMoon, I hope this helps to clarify things for you. It sure has for me! Blessings to your way.

[BrightMoon]

Thank you, that was very helpful in clarifying this unusual process!  I downloaded Foundations last night and will begin reading it today as well.  It's true that I haven't yet reached the stage where thinking and examining during meditation has subsided yet, though I know what it looks like, as I've been there a number of times before using various other systems of meditation.  In terms of 'heat scorching' during meditation, I've no doubt felt fried during energy practices from other systems, but this was the first time of a literal 'heat scorching' experience, and I think your post has helped me to understand these issues more thoroughly.  Thanks again!

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

One of the problems with studying nei dan is that the work is so subtle that most people get the wrong idea and practice in an excessively hot way that hurts them.   This mainly comes from incorrect instruction and a lack of education about classical documents pertaining to neidan.   I've been really let down by the abysmal translation of neidan documents into English and even more disgusted by money hungry con men trying to make danfa into some type of post heaven esoteric practice.

Neidan works according to this principle:

the mind ties the consciousness and essence together and switches between the pre and post heaven state - this warms the jing and turns it into "shen shui qi" (spirit water qi), which fills the meridians and breaks blockages and seals leaks.  This Qi is then united with the spirit and the spirit is returned to emptiness.    The nominal conscious movement of Qi in the meridians is only a symptom of correct practice, not the goal of practice.   The goal of practice is to break the yin body of earthly desire and become an entity of pure yang energy.    yin and yang only exchange fully in nature and won't mix properly if you use the human paradigm to try to force them via empty cycling of the mind through the meridians (it is called kong zhuan he che, I've written several threads about it in this forum).  it also doesn't come from your testicles or taint, that is post heaven jing, not pre heaven jing, there is a very important difference.

 

If you actually want to learn nei dan and not just experiment with potentially dangerous methods, you should find a teacher who is qualified and try hard to learn to read classical Chinese.  Otherwise you will just waste your time.

[joeblast]

threads like these get so many cooks tending to that pot of soup

[Andrei]

 

Otherwise you will just waste your time.

 

You waste time anyways, we all waste time anyways.

[CloudHands]

You waste time anyways, we all waste time anyways.

 

seriously ?

want a hug ?