Questions about the Neidan firing process

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

seriously ?

want a hug ?

 

I kind of want a hug. 

[Wu Ming Jen]

The firing process is not too hot / not too cold. This is related to the furnace (lower tien dien) the breath is the bellows. The fire is attention.You need a furnce or stove a vessel to cook/transform something so we call it a furnce it is not physical.

 

A lot of people start with attention to breath but that leads to attention/ awareness of all things.

 

These formless energies we are born with do not have  fixed locations, do not seek them in the body, energy locations are only associated with the physical body

 

the lower elixir field  is associated with vitality middle is energy upper is spirit.

 

Vitality creates the body, energy moves the body and spirit moves energy.

 

We call them three energies but it is only one energy, When they separate there is a problem.

 

Real neidan is instructed by a master in person> Alchemy uses terms and keywords because we are talking about things that have no form at all.

 

furnace does not exist but  the way a furnace works is also the way of cultivating vitality so we can move our body and minds in healthy ways, not too hot, not too cold.

[Andrei]

"

furnace does not exist but the way a furnace works is also the way of cultivating vitality so we can move our body and minds in healthy ways, not too hot, not too cold.

"

 

Finally someone who make sense! So basically what you say is that "furnace" is a metaphor for how we should live our lives. I totally agree with that!

[Wu Ming Jen]

Yes!!!!!

[joeblast]

if there were no 'process' or 'prescription' then the huo hou tu would not exist  

[Wu Ming Jen]

That's why it is important to use good ingredients.

 

This site is loaded with people that think the physical substance semen is jing and they have to hold it in or not have come out or something weird LOL. Classic example of using very harmful and bad ingredients.

 

I would think "Formless" / "No location" would be a  good clue for everybody. 

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

That's why it is important to use good ingredients.

 

This site is loaded with people that think the physical substance semen is jing and they have to hold it in or not have come out or something weird LOL. Classic example of using very harmful and bad ingredients.

 

I would think "Formless" / "No location" would be a  good clue for everybody. 

Listen to this man, he knows something  :) :)

[BrightMoon]

I finished the first chapter of Foundations of Internal Alchemy entitled "Laying the Foundation" and so far, with just a few exceptions that I can see, the material is in agreement with Damo Mitchell's instructions.  Certain variations being: 1) The LDT is explained as being behind the navel, not below it in the lower abdomen; 2) The process wherein the energy overflows into the do/ren meridian system is supposed to occur spontaneously on its own, rather than being directed; 3) And no mechanical muscular assistance is considered for helping to build energy and "pressure" in the LDT as it is in Damo's instructions.

 

Perhaps this is correct in theory, but my guess is that these particulars are just semantics and that the goal is achieved in either way.

[BrightMoon]

I don't believe this technique will be necessary for me.  I believe it's used to help beginners overcome the primary hindrances in their meditation sessions caused by a lack of vitality and its corresponding 'dis-eases' of the mind, which manifest as the 5 hindrances during meditation.  I practice a preliminary technique which is a version of the MCO that I modified from my 11 years of experience with different systems of kriya yoga, when I realized that the genius in kriya's results are that it allows almost complete beginners to overcome the classical 5 hindrances and reach "access concentration" with relative ease and little effort.  And this probably explains some of the experiences I have that someone here attributed to having 'superior virtues' of youth (I'm in my 30's.  So, not quite a spring chicken anymore.)  

 

I now see that the classical, dynastic lineages of kriya yoga (prior to Paramahansa Yogananda, et. al.) are very similar, and in some cases identical, to Daoist neidan practices.  Daoist neidan theory also clears up the mystery surrounding certain kriya yoga techniques in its system that made little to no sense, because of the lack of information about their purposes, as well as a lack of instructional technique about them, like "navi kriya" or naval kriya where the mind is concentrated at the navel while the belly is pushed inwards repeatedly; kechari mudra, or sticking our tongue to the upper palette; and "kriya paravastha" or remaining stationary in the thoughtless after-effect state of "circulating the energy around the spine" (which itself seems like it might be a misunderstanding of the original instructions).  It probably also explains why the famed head of the kriya lineage, "Babaji", is described as a shorter man with jet black and bone straight hair with ageless features more reminiscent of someone from China or Tibet than India, and who occasionally takes on a human form like a Daoist immortal, rather than Indian saints who are more often said to remain fully embodied in remote locations for hundreds of years.

 

For the time being, I've decided to stick with my modified daoist practices that I've recently adjusted, which seem to be very effective to me: 1) 5-10 min yoga postures or a basic qigong set; 2) 5-10 min MCO orbits done with inhale from navel down, back, up spine, over head to eyebrow point, exhale down to navel; 3) 20-30 min zuowang, sitting with eyes closed and letting go of whatever the mind tries to take up as an object; 4) 10 min of rest lying down.

 

Feel free to chime in.  I'm sure this is a lot of stuff to pick apart.  I just figured I'd provide closure to my meditational existential crisis that prompted the original post.

Edited September 11, 2016 by BrightMoon

[MIchael80]

Hi Brightmoon!

 

If you have found something that brings you joy that is great!!

I just want to add some points:

 

I have also researched (and practised) Kriya for a long time. Yes, babaji seems to be an immortal. But do not forget that the original kriya masters all aged normal and died.

 

Kriya Yoga brings quickly a very deep quietude into the mind that is for sure.

 

Navi Kriya is used to break the knot of the navel according to Lahiri Mahasaya. (he had a four knot modell which is distinct from the classical 3 knot modell). Navi Kriya is not practiced in most lineages today but the lineage of Sadhanananda Maharji still practices it. It also helps to bring about the breathlessstate much more easy.

 

I would also add that the goal of Kriya is different from Neidan as it is based on the hindusystem of "leaving behind the illusion of this body" where as Neidan tries to transmute the body.

 

Also Lahiri in his commentaries describes Kriya breath "going up and down" he is not talking about the MCO in any of his describtions. (meaning no circulation)

 

the most original Kriyalineage we have today might be from Sri Mukherjee (http://originalkriya.com/) and this Kriya is different from all other Kriyas....much softer. (http://kriyayogainfo.net/files/Document%20about%20Sri%20Sri%20Lahiri%20Mahasaya%27s%20original%20Kriya%20Yoga.pdf)

 

another BIG difference with Kriya and Neidan is that Kriya used postheaven breath and real Neidan works with preheaven stuff. This difference is huge and results in totally different effects.

 

All the best

Michael

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

What do you mean by "transmute"? I thought the goal in all of this was liberation

[BrightMoon]

I think he's referring to the early aspects of neidan work where you transmute jing into chi and into shen, though they are actually the same substance, just in different states.  In kriya yoga, you move the energy up and down the spine (or around, depending on which tradition you hail from) and this refines the sexual essence into vital essence and vital essence into a spiritually potent energy that stills the mind's activity and the body's breath.  This is experienced initially as a lack of interest in sexual activity, followed in time by experiencing the actual vital energy that lies behind the moving of intention and awareness up and down/around the spinal column, followed but a stillness of thought and a shallowness of breathing wherein you then practice kriya paravastha (sitting in stillness) or mental kriya pranayama, which is nearly identical to Mantak Chia's version of the MCO.

 

Really, the processes are identical in both neidan and kriya yoga, it's just that the techniques are a bit different, though strikingly similar.  I know little of this newly public Mukherjee lineage, other than that his techniques are not the same as the rest of the kriya yoga lineages, and therefore may not actually perform similarly to the original lineages, and perhaps why there isn't an understanding of the "transmutation process."  I still can't make heads or tales of the murky instructions Mukherjee provided Ennio to post on his website about his technique.

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

Okay. Is this Jing/chi/Shen energy your individual self? Are you just expanding yourself?

[BrightMoon]

I'm not really sure how to answer either of your questions, sorry.

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

Sorry, it's just that I'm abstract. I mean, do you know where the chi comes from?

[BrightMoon]

If you're referring to the chi that's gathered in internal energy practices like neidan and kriya yoga, it seems to come from the sex drive, food and beverages, and being out in nature, for the most part.  At least that's my own personal experience.  Because when I practice, my sex drive significantly diminishes, I begin to crave fresh, plant-based foods, I begin to naturally abstain from alcohol, and I have an increased desire to be out in remote natural settings.  I think everyone is different, but certainly some of these are commonalities, as I've read about them many times from other people.

[Daeluin]

Sorry, it's just that I'm abstract. I mean, do you know where the chi comes from?

 

Where does energy come from? Isn't it everywhere? There are so many types of qi, which include spirit and matter.

 

Okay. Is this Jing/chi/Shen energy your individual self? Are you just expanding yourself?

 

We are working with layers here.

 

Just like with yin, yang, and the change unfolding between, we have heavy, light, and in between.

 

It is said that when heaven (a representation of yang, three yang lines ☰) merged with earth (a representation of yin, three yin lines ☷), the result was heavy (k'an, the abyss, that which draws into itself, also called water, the true yang within the false yin: ☵) and light (li, illumination, that which has had its core separated from its substance, resulting in true emptiness (true yin) within false substance (false yang), fire: ☲).

 

Heaven and earth (pure yin and yang) are the origins. Heavy and Light (mixed yin and yang according to the operating principles of water and fire) are known as the nozzles of creation.

 

Jing follows the principle of heavy, shen follows the principle of light. Qi is what connects them in between. Qi is life - just like how life on this planet is possible due to the refined balances between the extremes of heavy/light, cold/hot, etc.

 

The postnatal jing is the sexual essence, the postnatal qi is the qi within our breath and organ systems, the postnatal shen is the spirit that feels and thinks.

 

Just like how the true yang of heaven and the true yin of earth get lost within the middle of heavy and light, surrounded by the false, we are often obscuring the present truth with new layers of the false simply by following the established momentums.

 

The prenatal jing, qi, and shen emerge in stillness, in turning around and going back.

 

 

What do you mean by "transmute"? I thought the goal in all of this was liberation

 

shen = spirit

qi = breath

jing = essence

 

houtian = postnatal = postcelestial = acquired

xiantian = prenatal = precelestial = congenital

 

Precelestial Breath of True Unity

 

Yuandu zi (Zhao Youqin) said:

 

The precelestial Breath comes from within Empty Non-Being.

 

The Wuzhen pian (Awakening to Reality) says:

 

The Tao from Empty Non-Being generates the One Breath,

then from the One Breath gives birth to Yin and Yang.

 

Xue Daoguang said:

 

There is something before heaven and Earth,

it has no name and is fundamentally silent and still.

It is capable of ruling over the ten thousand images,

and does not decay along the course of the four seasons.

 

All these passages say that the precelestial Breath is the Ancestral Breath that generates all things. It comes from within Empty Non-Being; it is the ruler of the ten thousand images and the patriarch of Heaven and Earth; it has no form and no image; and it is soundless and scentless. "Watching, you do not see it; listening, you do not hear it; grasping, you do not get it." However, although it is devoid of form it can generate forms, and although it is devoid of image it can generate images.

 

With regard to its Spirit, it is "the Spirit that is not spirit"; with regard to its Breath, it is the Breath of True Unity; with reagard to its Essence, it is the Essence of True Unity. It is also called True Seed, Golden Elixir, and "method of not dying of the other house." It cannot be compared to the postcelestial breath of inspiration and expiration, the thinking spirit, and the essence of the intercourse; and it also cannot be equated to the Original Essence (yuanjing), the Original Breath (yuanqi), and the Original Spirit (yuanshen).

 

Original Essence, Original Breath, and Original Spirit are Yang in the postecelestial, but are Yin in the precelestial. They are different from the precelestial Breath of True Unity, which is indestructible for ten thousand kalpas, transcends all things, and is "the only Honored One." Neither life nor death adhere to it, neither Being nor Non-Being are established in it. This Breath is the root of the postcelestial Essence, Breath, and Spirit, and the ruler of the precelestial Essence, Breath, and Spirit. It is something of the nature of utmost Yang, the Treasure of Heaven. Those who comprehend it are few.

 

It has neither an inside nor an outside; it does not sink into the five aggregates and the eight consciousnesses; it is not in the five viscera and the six receptacles; it is not in the six sense organs and the gatekeeper; and it is not in the hundred bones and the cavities and the openings of the body. It is in the One Opening of the Mysterious Barrier. If you search it with intention, you become attached to phenomenal appearances; if you guard it without intention, you become attached to emptiness. You cannot attain it by means of thought, and you cannot discuss it.

 

Liu Yiming, Cultivating the Tao tl Fabrizio Pregadio

 

In transmutation, they say the jing transmutes to qi, the qi transmutes to shen, the shen returns to dao. As simple as this sounds, these stages refer to working at fundamentally different layers to first merge fire and water (heavy and light) back together so one then has returned the "3 to 2," and then one is working at a new layer of existence to do new work merging heaven and earth back together, "returning the 2 to 1", and so on.

 

The return to the one that is the precelestial breath of true unity (the golden elixir) cannot exist outside of the one opening of the mysterious barrier (the mysterious gate). The mysterious gate is said to be everywhere and nowhere simultaneously.

 

The energy cultivated may begin with one's own energy, but as one peels back the layers, what is true, what is centered... is it still one's own energy, or has one since come to center within a center that has nothing but a center, and center within a universe that exists and yet does not exist?

 

When the whole is divided, parts need names. So you will find as many or as few as you are looking for. None are needed, none can be left out.

[joeblast]

What do you mean by "transmute"? I thought the goal in all of this was liberation

The definition provides enough of a clue - how best to make energy transform?  A root, configurable state, before manifestation.  Transformation is not an "active" process.

[BrightMoon]

Transformation of anything is always an active process until it reaches its conclusion.  You can't make it transform.  It'll transform itself if you just perform the techniques.

[joeblast]

that was my point - you cant make it transform - you can only set the conditions for transformation.  setting the conditions is both an active and a passive process, it follows yin and yang like most other things.  I wouldnt label keeping the focus of one's awareness sharp in deep meditation to necessarily be an 'active' thing.