Mair 2:10

[Marblehead]

Long ago, Yao inquired of Shun, "Wishing to make a punitive attack against Tsung, K'uai, and Hsŭ'ao, {{Three small states (probably imaginary).}} I sit on my throne feeling all preoccupied. Why is this so? "

"The rulers of these three states," said Shun, "are still living primitively amidst brambles and bushes. Why are you preoccupied? Of old, ten suns {{This trope is from a myth supposedly dating to the time of the mythical ruler Yao. The simultaneous appearance of ten suns was a disaster because it scorched the crops. Yao had to call upon the mighty archer Yi, a hero of Tai-speaking peoples to the south, to shoot down nine of the suns.}} appeared simultaneously, illuminating the myriad things. How much more should a ruler like yourself, whose virtue excels that of the sun, be able to tolerate other rulers!"
 

[Taoist Texts]

From this we learn that ZZ was concerned with state governance, after all; and, there is no rhyme or reason to this dialog - like, whats the connection between  the 10 suns and a ruler's tolerance? Why they are asking  rhetorical questions at each other?

 

Oh yeah Mair's " I sit on my throne" is 'to face south' in the original.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

Yeah, although I view Chuang Tzu as having been an Anarchist, I also believe that he was aware that there was a need for governance in some form.  He seemed to agree with the guidance offered in the TTC.

 

For me, this passage speaks more to tolerance and leaving alone than to governance though.

[Taoist Texts]

good. thanks to Marbles, now i understand whats this about.

 

Emperor: the 3 tribes make trouble. Is that a good reason for a punitive expedition?

Minister: those 3 are petty savages who live in the trees. So what if they make some trouble? Remember, once the 10 suns came up, scorched all things, and got shot down, so there remained just one. If you go on a punitive expedition, you will be like those 10 suns and you will get shot down. Better improve your De like just one modest sun.

[rene]

Yeah, although I view Chuang Tzu as having been an Anarchist, I also believe that he was aware that there was a need for governance in some form. He seemed to agree with the guidance offered in the TTC.

 

For me, this passage speaks more to tolerance and leaving alone than to governance though.

It does. Light hand. Like cooking a small fish. This is what I mean about ZZ taking a simple idea and making it confusing.

 

Doesn't matter how good the joke/story is if it doesn't bring you to the punch line. IMO. (-:

[dawei]

Wonder if there is any reference going to the fact that ultimately Yao bypassed his unworthy son for Shun as emperor.

[Marblehead]

Wonder if there is any reference going to the fact that ultimately Yao bypassed his unworthy son for Shun as emperor.

 

Yes, that is mentioned in Chapter 1, Section 2.

 

And in Chapter 29 , Section 2 it is stated that:  "Yao killed his eldest son ..."

 

Yao and Shun are mentioned many times throughout but I could not find anything stating why Yao killed his eldest son and passed his throne to Shun.

[rene]

Probably all that good advice.

[dawei]

Ok... another stretch here...

 

Yao had nine sons... all considered worthless... maybe they represent the nine suns shoot down... the one sun left standing is represented by Shun.

 

In fact, in storytelling, Shun is said to have found some use for the nine sons in the end, so not so worthless to him.

[Marblehead]

Good thinking Dawei.  I didn't catch anything about nine sons on my quick scan.  According to Mair Yao and Shun are real historical figures.  I did notice that Yao had at least one son with a concubine.  That may have eliminated at least one son from the thrown.

 

And everything I recall mentioning Yao and Shun were words of respect.  Maybe Yao wanted Shun to carry on his legacy rather any of his other sons?  (Which apparently happened.)

[dawei]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Shun

 

 

When Emperor Yao became old, he became distressed over the fact that his 9 sons were all useless, only knew how to spend their days enjoying themselves with wine and song. Yao asked his administers, the Four Mountains, to propose a suitable successor. Yao then heard of Shun's tales. Wise Yao did not want to simply believe in the tales about Shun, so he decided to test Shun. Yao gave a district to Shun to govern and married his two daughters to him, with a small dowry of a new house and some money.

Though given an office and money, Shun still lived humbly. He continued to work in the fields every day. Shun even managed to convince his two brides, the two princesses, Yao's daughters, named Ehuang (Fairy Radiance) and Nüying (Maiden Bloom),^[16] who were used to good living, to live humbly and work along the people. However, Shun's stepmother and half brother became extremely jealous and conspired to kill Shun. Once, Shun's half brother Xiang lit a barn on fire, and convinced Shun to climb onto the roof to put the fire out, but then Xiang took away the ladder, trapping Shun on the burning roof. Shun skilfully made a parachute out of his hat and cloth and jumped down in safety. Another time, Xiang and his mother conspired to get Shun drunk and then throw him into a dried-up well and then bury him with rocks and dirt. Shun's half sister, never approving of her mother and brother's schemes, told Shun's wives about the scheme. Shun thus prepared himself. Shun pretended to get drunk, and when he was thrown into the well, he had already a tunnel pre-dug to escape to the surface. Thus, Shun survived many attempts on his life. Yet, he never blamed his stepmother or his half brother, and forgave them every time.

Eventually, Shun's stepmother and half brother repented their past wrongs. Shun wholeheartedly forgave them both, and even helped Xiang get an office. Shun also managed to influence Emperor Yao's 9 worthless sons into becoming useful contributing members of society.