Does Chinese Civilization Come From Ancient Egypt?

Apech · September 9, 2016

PS I think we may have gone off topic in this thread.

Well to go slightly back on topic - what is this obsession with things have to come from somewhere else anyway? It seems to me to go back to old racial theories of superior peoples ... and the rest of us dumb schmucks who couldn't even dream of building a pyramid without an over-lord saying hey 'put one stone on top of another'.

This kind of analysis goes back to the old colonials justifying their own presence as 'bringing culture and civilisation to the natives'. And we're kind of stuck with it.

Pyramids are the most natural way to build long lasting structures in stone. Big at the bottom and pointy at the top. Very hard to make them fall over really - although they did manage to do that occasionally. And four sided is natural as well because we measure the earth by four directions - not five, six or seven. So to build a square base - why wouldn't you? Align it to the cardinal points to show off a little - yeah. Who needs aliens or Aryans for that matter?

Why couldn't different people round the world come up with variations of that?

KuroShiro · September 10, 2016

Well to go slightly back on topic - what is this obsession with things have to come from somewhere else anyway? It seems to me to go back to old racial theories of superior peoples ... and the rest of us dumb schmucks who couldn't even dream of building a pyramid without an over-lord saying hey 'put one stone on top of another'.

This kind of analysis goes back to the old colonials justifying their own presence as 'bringing culture and civilisation to the natives'. And we're kind of stuck with it.

Pyramids are the most natural way to build long lasting structures in stone. Big at the bottom and pointy at the top. Very hard to make them fall over really - although they did manage to do that occasionally. And four sided is natural as well because we measure the earth by four directions - not five, six or seven. So to build a square base - why wouldn't you? Align it to the cardinal points to show off a little - yeah. Who needs aliens or Aryans for that matter?

Why couldn't different people round the world come up with variations of that?

I don't think the obsession is about things have to come from somewhere else but to know where they come from.

In a broader sense, did humans evolve from apes? If so how did apes come to be; are we the creation of a God? If so who was this God, etc.

I also don't think it's about racial theories of superior people but people with superior technology.

The pyramids are very interesting and there are many different theories about why they were built. That's why they're so fascinating structures and the quality/precision of construction adds to it too, not so much the form.

Chinese Civilization is credited with the invention of Acupuncture. Again there are several theories about it's creation. Where does Ötzi, the frozen man found in the Alps, fit in?

http://www.iceman.it/en/tattoos:

"The tattoos were therefore primarily intended as therapeutic measures rather than as symbols. There is little doubt that the Iceman underwent pain-relieving treatment on multiple occasions."

"Astonishingly, many of the tattooed areas correspond to skin acupuncture lines. Before Ötzi it was thought that this art of healing had only originated two thousand years later in Asia."

Edited September 10, 2016 by KuroShiro

Marblehead · September 10, 2016

Why couldn't different people round the world come up with variations of that?

I have seen that described as parallel evolution.

Marblehead · September 10, 2016

In a broader sense, do humans evolved from monkeys?

Humans evolved from the Ape family, not the Monkey family.

(I just felt like pointing that out.)

Nungali · September 10, 2016

Well to go slightly back on topic - what is this obsession with things have to come from somewhere else anyway? It seems to me to go back to old racial theories of superior peoples ... and the rest of us dumb schmucks who couldn't even dream of building a pyramid without an over-lord saying hey 'put one stone on top of another'.

This kind of analysis goes back to the old colonials justifying their own presence as 'bringing culture and civilisation to the natives'. And we're kind of stuck with it.

Pyramids are the most natural way to build long lasting structures in stone. Big at the bottom and pointy at the top. Very hard to make them fall over really - although they did manage to do that occasionally. And four sided is natural as well because we measure the earth by four directions - not five, six or seven. So to build a square base - why wouldn't you? Align it to the cardinal points to show off a little - yeah. Who needs aliens or Aryans for that matter?

Why couldn't different people round the world come up with variations of that?

Nungali · September 10, 2016

I don't think the obsession is about things have to come from somewhere else but to know where they come from.

Certainly, most of us have that, but what Apech is describing is a Victorian conquering Empire model that was projected backwards onto the past understandings of history, archaeology, anthropology, etc . Mostly, due to the fact that the main historians, archaeologists and anthropologists back then were from from those 'Empire building' countries, and Christian ... and pretty racist.

As time went on, more findings were made, more research was done and we got more people from other countries and ethnic backgrounds becoming professionals in this area ... slowly things began to move towards empirical research.

Unfortunately, nowadays education seems to be floomping backwards for some , these old ideas based on such prejudices are resurfacing - Atlantitis , pryamidiotology, flat earth 'theory', etc etc .

In a broader sense, did humans evolve from apes? If so how did apes come to be; are we the creation of a God? If so who was this God, etc.

I also don't think it's about racial theories of superior people but people with superior technology.

The delusion was /is that only 'superior' people have 'suoperior' technology. 'Superior ' people of today cant comprehend how the Great Pyramid could have been built, so they have to postulate, at times, outlandishly supposed technologies for the ancient Egyptians, now lost ... or some alien assistance ... or advanced race did it .

people, like us did it, with 'simple ' technology .... people can be real smart, whether they got tech or not. I have seen several invented systems and ideas that postulate how the ancient Egyptians solved some of the pyramid building problems, sung tech available back then . They may not be correct, and they may be no evidence whatsoever that they were used, but it does demonstrate ... some people 'still got it '. They can STILL ( some of them ) thnk outside the box to come up with really simple ways of doing amazing things ..... like moving a giant block with a 'stick' and a pebble

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCvx5gSnfW4

The pyramids are very interesting and there are many different theories about why they were built. That's why they're so fascinating structures and the quality/precision of construction adds to it too, not so much the form.

Actually, they are not really that precise at all ... thats a bit of modern woo-woo. Some have even claimed 'perfection' ... nah ! Even the 'alignment theory' seems pretty sus ... I do know its popular, but I havent met anyone yet that can answer the relevant questions that their own ideas generate (on that particular issue ) ..... most just seem to be repeating stuff they dont understand .

Chinese Civilization is credited with the invention of Acupuncture. Again there are several theories about it's creation. Where does Ötzi, the frozen man found in the Alps, fit in?

I think ancient paleolithic man had a much longer, interesting and innovative history than we thought . A much longer history of 'understanding', just because people have not worked metal yet and developed the related technologies does not mean they did not know about psychology, psychic anatomy, energy systems , etc . In my expereince ... they sertainly DO ! Actually, some are masters at it !

http://www.iceman.it/en/tattoos:

"The tattoos were therefore primarily intended as therapeutic measures rather than as symbols. There is little doubt that the Iceman underwent pain-relieving treatment on multiple occasions."

"Astonishingly, many of the tattooed areas correspond to skin acupuncture lines. Before Ötzi it was thought that this art of healing had only originated two thousand years later in Asia."

Also the painted patterns on these lines (in ochre, high in iron ) on the body, relating to effects between the body's bio-electric field and the environment's emf ..... some of these things are still going today ....' down here' living people are still doing things like that ... dont need no mummies . But they do reveal the interesting history and trends of other places .

Nungali · September 10, 2016

another thing I found interesting, although at a latter date, and nothing to do with 'original developing cultures' or Egypt was the spread of Manichaeism ; originated in Persia and eventually spread to and further developed in 'China' .

But these are 'interesting cross cultural trends' not whole cultures being transported and created or influenced.

Brian · September 11, 2016

I'd just point out that we didn't "evolve from" apes, we are apes. Anthropoelitists flatter themselves by thinking otherwise but examining skeletons or genetics or behavior (among other characteristics) make it pretty self-evident.

Sorry for this off-topic comment from the peanut gallery.

Nungali · September 11, 2016

Shut up you ! That is NOT true < flings a turd at him > .

'Evolved' huh ?

Some people dont like this at all ; to be told they are of the order primate . I point out ; the set of the shoulders, the flat nails, the hand structure, the nipples ....

it makes them uncomfortable ...... at least we dont throw turds at each other anymore .... we have become far more 'civilized' in what we 'throw' at each other nowadays

Edited September 11, 2016 by Nungali

Nungali · September 11, 2016

Just in;

Ascent of Man image should be ‘the other way around’, leading expert in human evolution says

.... Another key piece of evidence used by those who believe humans evolved to walk upright on the ground is the human foot. For a long time it was thought to be fixed, rather than flexible like a gorillas foot.

But Professor Crompton and other scientists have found evidence that our foot is kept stiff by muscles and tendons, rather than locked in place by the bones.

“Humans have flexible feet just like other apes. There’s nothing special about them and in particular they resemble the foot of gorillas,” he said.

“There is little special about human feet to suggest they are primarily adapted to life on the ground.

“We are a typical great ape, with great ape feet.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/ascent-of-man-human-evolution-apes-chimpanzees-lucy-australopithecus-robin-crompton-a7230371.html

Edited September 11, 2016 by Nungali

KuroShiro · September 11, 2016

Certainly, most of us have that, but what Apech is describing is a Victorian conquering Empire model that was projected backwards onto the past understandings of history, archaeology, anthropology, etc . Mostly, due to the fact that the main historians, archaeologists and anthropologists back then were from from those 'Empire building' countries, and Christian ... and pretty racist.

Sure but my comment was in relation to the article in the OP.

The delusion was /is that only 'superior' people have 'suoperior' technology. 'Superior ' people of today cant comprehend how the Great Pyramid could have been built, so they have to postulate, at times, outlandishly supposed technologies for the ancient Egyptians, now lost ... or some alien assistance ... or advanced race did it .

This is the problem with generalization. What's the percentage of people living in the world today that have been directly involved in technological advances? We mustn't talk about superior people (which is a stupid designation) but we probably should be considering the great minds that created/invented/philosophized... There are known and anonymous examples throughout history, in several parts of the world. The known ones present less mystery.

people, like us did it, with 'simple ' technology .... people can be real smart, whether they got tech or not. I have seen several invented systems and ideas that postulate how the ancient Egyptians solved some of the pyramid building problems, sung tech available back then . They may not be correct, and they may be no evidence whatsoever that they were used, but it does demonstrate ... some people 'still got it '. They can STILL ( some of them ) thnk outside the box to come up with really simple ways of doing amazing things ..... like moving a giant block with a 'stick' and a pebble

Simple is awesome. Wasn't an ancient Greek that using a stick and it's shadow at the same time of day in 2 far apart locations came to the conclusion that the Earth was spherical?

The stones in Stonehenge came from Wales and he's using a concrete flat surface so the mystery remains. Still it's always great when someone experiments and thinks outside the box, that's how we got here.

Actually, they are not really that precise at all ... thats a bit of modern woo-woo. Some have even claimed 'perfection' ... nah ! Even the 'alignment theory' seems pretty sus ...

Yeah right, you would have built them with more precision

I was thinking about the inner chambers and shafts but still:

"The Great Pyramid's north-south axis is aligned to within three-sixtieths of a degree of true north-south. It would be worthwhile to note that this alignment is more accurate than that of the Meridian Building at the Greenwich Observatory in London, which deviates from true north by nine-sixtieths of a degree." - http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/gem-projects/hm/0102-1-pyramids/page1002.htm

This doesn't mean the solution might not have been simple:

"The Great Pyramid's north-south axis is nearly aligned to true north, the deviation is only 2' 28''. To achieve this precision the Egyptians had to make an exact survey and do control measurements. Otto Neugebauer [1] is offering a simple solution to this problem." - http://www.cheops-pyramide.ch/khufu-pyramid/pyramid-alignment.html

When we talk about the Egyptian pyramids we're generally thinking about the Great Pyramid of Giza.

Egyptian Mathematics - http://www.storyofmathematics.com/egyptian.html

I think ancient paleolithic man had a much longer, interesting and innovative history than we thought . A much longer history of 'understanding', just because people have not worked metal yet and developed the related technologies does not mean they did not know about psychology, psychic anatomy, energy systems , etc . In my expereince ... they sertainly DO ! Actually, some are masters at it !

The question is how did they gain that knowledge, again the answer might not be that esoteric, we just want to know how. Also did some of this knowledge, without recorded history, get lost?

"Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?" - T.S. Eliot whom I love but haven't read yet.

Idiocracy (2006) one of the worst films I've seen - https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/idiocracy/

Golden Dragon Shining · September 12, 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAnLST3BTjo

Nungali · September 12, 2016

Certainly, most of us have that, but what Apech is describing is a Victorian conquering Empire model that was projected backwards onto the past understandings of history, archaeology, anthropology, etc . Mostly, due to the fact that the main historians, archaeologists and anthropologists back then were from from those 'Empire building' countries, and Christian ... and pretty racist.

Sure but my comment was in relation to the article in the OP.

The delusion was /is that only 'superior' people have 'suoperior' technology. 'Superior ' people of today cant comprehend how the Great Pyramid could have been built, so they have to postulate, at times, outlandishly supposed technologies for the ancient Egyptians, now lost ... or some alien assistance ... or advanced race did it .

This is the problem with generalization. What's the percentage of people living in the world today that have been directly involved in technological advances? We mustn't talk about superior people (which is a stupid designation) but we probably should be considering the great minds that created/invented/philosophized... There are known and anonymous examples throughout history, in several parts of the world. The known ones present less mystery.

people, like us did it, with 'simple ' technology .... people can be real smart, whether they got tech or not. I have seen several invented systems and ideas that postulate how the ancient Egyptians solved some of the pyramid building problems, sung tech available back then . They may not be correct, and they may be no evidence whatsoever that they were used, but it does demonstrate ... some people 'still got it '. They can STILL ( some of them ) thnk outside the box to come up with really simple ways of doing amazing things ..... like moving a giant block with a 'stick' and a pebble

Simple is awesome. Wasn't an ancient Greek that using a stick and it's shadow at the same time of day in 2 far apart locations came to the conclusion that the Earth was spherical?

Perhaps .... I also heard another one: in the past, Englishmen setting up equipment to measure the height of the Great Pyramid and along comes a local " If you know how high you are, and you measure the length of your shadow ( draws in sand ) , then you can meausre the length of the pyramids shadow and ... "

The stones in Stonehenge came from Wales and he's using a concrete flat surface so the mystery remains.

? Huh ? Smoothed blocks have flat surfaces too . I think he demonstrated pretty amazingly ... more so than any hand wave that dispels his demo . yes, they are concrete, but that matters little considering what he was demonstrating. Same as where the stones came from, that was not what he was demonstrating. megalithic block and statue transport is a different issue and technique. A lot is known about that .

What is this 'mystery' that remains ?

Still it's always great when someone experiments and thinks outside the box, that's how we got here.

Actually, they are not really that precise at all ... thats a bit of modern woo-woo. Some have even claimed 'perfection' ... nah ! Even the 'alignment theory' seems pretty sus ...

Yeah right, you would have built them with more precision

HUH ? Ummm no , I am not personally claiming to be anything of the sort . I am just an observer and learner. This particular comment comes about from material bought to my attention by Egyptologists and professional surveyors and engineers ... its not something I pulled out the air because I thought I could do it better .

There are lots of 'un perfect' things in the Great Pyramid . Later building is much better and heaps more 'perfect' . Actually, the whole lower interior might have been a mistake, and they started the new chamber above it and sealed off the lower one .... it isnt really thought to be a 'Queens Chamber', thats just a name it got ... like the 'air shafts' that are blocked and dont let air through .

I was thinking about the inner chambers and shafts but still:

"The Great Pyramid's north-south axis is aligned to within three-sixtieths of a degree of true north-south. It would be worthwhile to note that this alignment is more accurate than that of the Meridian Building at the Greenwich Observatory in London, which deviates from true north by nine-sixtieths of a degree." - http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/gem-projects/hm/0102-1-pyramids/page1002.htm

This doesn't mean the solution might not have been simple:

"The Great Pyramid's north-south axis is nearly aligned to true north, the deviation is only 2' 28''. To achieve this precision the Egyptians had to make an exact survey and do control measurements. Otto Neugebauer [1] is offering a simple solution to this problem." - http://www.cheops-pyramide.ch/khufu-pyramid/pyramid-alignment.html

When we talk about the Egyptian pyramids we're generally thinking about the Great Pyramid of Giza.

Egyptian Mathematics - http://www.storyofmathematics.com/egyptian.html

There is a heap of similar material , from mistakes made in construction, cracks, bad stone work, rubble fill etc. I wont put it all here but I can link you to a site that specializes in this sort of stuff.

To be clear ; I think it is a magnificent construction , they were genius , it IS remarkably accurate ... I am just saying it isnt perfect , and a lot of casual comments I read thrown about about its 'perfection' dont really hold up .

It was built by men and women ... smart ones ... but men and women , who sometimes make mistakes .

I think ancient paleolithic man had a much longer, interesting and innovative history than we thought . A much longer history of 'understanding', just because people have not worked metal yet and developed the related technologies does not mean they did not know about psychology, psychic anatomy, energy systems , etc . In my experience ... they certainly DO ! Actually, some are masters at it !

The question is how did they gain that knowledge, again the answer might not be that esoteric, we just want to know how.

Same way as any knowledge , I suppose, by observing themselves and the natural world around them and trial and error .

Also did some of this knowledge, without recorded history, get lost?

I am sure it did . . . . if we are still talking about the human psychic anatomy.

If you were in reference to the building techniques, I dont think they are lost, they got superseded, they are not lost , as demonstrated in that video. Also, people keep coming up with " I solved how they built the Great Pyramid! " with all sorts of simple and innovative contraptions, that can be demonstrated that they COULD have worked. But there is no evidence that they were used at all. To me, this shows some people can still think like that and develop these ideas. Not just rediscover the old ones .

Just wait till the internet fails ... we will get it back ( who ever is left will anyway , eventually )

The same with transporting huge stones . Do you know about the Easter Island statues , how the natives told the scientists the statues walked there from the quarry . The scientists actually figured out how to get the statues to walk there .

"Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?" - T.S. Eliot whom I love but haven't read yet.

Wisdom comes way after knowledge .... knowledge itself is dangerous. After knowledge should come understanding; what happens and what effects come about when knowledge is used or applied. Next comes wisdom; applying the first two to cause change, or stop it, to a specific end .

That is where Wisdom should be , firmly anchored to Knowledge via understanding .

'Information' now lies in IT , not in the natural world .... 'intelligence' itself has evolved to be so fast and vast, it can no longer be contained or worrled by the human brain. we have had to make specialised electronic IT systems - hence, many humans are now loosing their 'natural intelligence'

Some can still design 'simple' pyramid building 'technology' , but some cant even keep a fire going long enough to cook their dinner ..... I have watched that .... a human , the 'master of fire' bumble about like an idiot with no knowledge of how to keep a fire going to cook their food ... scary !

Idiocracy (2006) one of the worst films I've seen - https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/idiocracy/

? Ummm okay , I am sure it is .

(we gonna run out of colors soon )

Edited September 12, 2016 by Nungali

Nungali · September 12, 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAnLST3BTjo

No thanks .... 1 3/4 hrs on how the Irish came from Atlantis .... :wacko:

However , if you yourself would like to add something other than a youtube link .....

Marblehead · September 12, 2016

(we gonna run out of colors soon )

I sure hope you run out of red. It hurts my eyes.

My most recent investigation indicated that the Chinese taught the Egyptians how to build their pyramids.

Nungali · September 12, 2016

(we gonna run out of colors soon )

I sure hope you run out of red. It hurts my eyes.

My most recent investigation indicated that the Chinese taught the Egyptians how to build their pyramids.

Is this better ?

I thought your eyes might be red themselves .... to match the text ? After your little drinking session last night ???

Which, I assume, is when you achieved your ' recent investigation ' results .

Apech · September 12, 2016

Is this better ?

I thought your eyes might be red themselves .... to match the text ? After your little drinking session last night ???

Which, I assume, is when you achieved your ' recent investigation ' results .

Evidence has emerged that the Australians helped build the pyramids:

Brian · September 13, 2016

Shut up you ! That is NOT true < flings a turd at him > .

'Evolved' huh ?

Some people dont like this at all ; to be told they are of the order primate . I point out ; the set of the shoulders, the flat nails, the hand structure, the nipples ....

it makes them uncomfortable ...... at least we dont throw turds at each other anymore .... we have become far more 'civilized' in what we 'throw' at each other nowadays

Well, better scatolia than coprophagia, I guess...

Nungali · September 13, 2016

Evidence has emerged that the Australians helped build the pyramids:

Timely dear puss, very timely (I been in a running 2 day debate with a poor fellow national on the subject of 'pyramids' down under ).

I just hope no one here mentions the 'Gympie Pyramid' or the 'Gosford Hieroglyphics ' .

Edited September 13, 2016 by Nungali

themiddleway · September 14, 2016

http://www.gizapower.com/pma/index.htm

Nungali · September 14, 2016

Since a link just appeared with no text or explanation or reason for putting it up , and considering the pics and captions, one assumes that this is a demo of some of the results the Egyptians achieved.

Now to some , it might appear that no one could do that with primitive tools ? if that was the point of the exercise ?

They seem to make a point of bringing attention to sawn stone * and to rounded moulding on stone ..... ( maybe he never heard of a stone column ? They are round and curved all the way up . Egyptians were quiet good at making them .

How to saw stone :

http://www.theglobaleducationproject.org/egypt/articles/petrie.php ( This is pretty basic Egyptology)

Mechanical Methods - Petrie's Comments

The following extracts are taken from Chapter VIII entitled "Mechanical Methods" in Petrie's classic reference work "The Pyramids and Temples of Gizeh". They concern some of his findings at 'Gizeh' during the winters of 1880 and 1881.

"The methods employed by the Egyptians in cutting the hard stones which they so frequently worked, have long remained undetermined. Various suggestions have been made, some very impractical; but no actual proofs of the tools employed, or the manner of using them, have been obtained..."

"The typical method of working hard stones - such as granite, diorite, basalt, etc.- was by means of bronze tools; these were set with cutting points, far harder than the quartz which was operated on. The material of these cutting points is yet undetermined; but only five substances are possible - beryl, topaz, chrysoberyl, corindum or sapphire, and diamond. The character of the work would certainly seem to point to diamond as being the cutting jewel; and only the considerations of its rarity in general,...interfer with this conclusion."

" Many nations,..., are in the habit of cutting hard materials by mean of a soft substance (as copper, wood, horn etc.), with a hard powder applied to it; the powder sticks in the basis employed, and this being scraped over the stone to be cut, so wears it away. Many persons have therefore very readily assumed(as I myself did at first) that this method must necessarily have been used by the Egyptians; and that it would suffice to produce all the examples now collected. Such, however, is far from being the case; though no doubt in alabastar, and other soft stones, this method was employed."

"That the Egyptians were acquainted with a cutting jewel far harder than quartz, and that they used this jewel as a sharp pointed graver, is put beyond doubt by the diorite bowls with inscriptions of the fourth dynasty, of which I found fragments at Gizeh; as well as the scratches on polished granite of Ptolemaic age at San. The hieroglyphs are incised, with a very fre-cutting point; they are not scraped or ground out, but are ploughed through the diorite, with rough edges to the line. As the lines are only 1/150 inch wide (the figures being about .2 long), it is evidence that the cutting point must have been much harder than quartz; and tough enough not to splinter when so fine an edge was being employed, probably only 1/200 inch wide. Parallel lines are graved only 1/30 inch apart from centre to centre."

There is a heap youtubes out there that claim to be mystified about these basic processes , so called experts film the stone , then say "Some type of saw must have been used !!! " (ummmm .... yeah . ) " How did they do it ? I dont know ."

(maybe thats becasue you didnt bother to do the basic kindy research about it ? ) Like this one ;