Existential Depression

[Orion]

Someone forwarded me this article recently and I thought the way it framed things was rather interesting. The proposed solutions come up a bit short in my opinion, and I don't think this issue can be pegged squarely on "gifted people". It targets the very root dissatisfaction that a lot of intelligent and self-reflective people experience. I found this paragraph particularly interesting:

 

 

Existential depression is a depression that arises when an individual confronts certain basic issues of existence. Yalom (1980) describes four such issues (or “ultimate concerns”)–death, freedom, isolation and meaninglessness. Death is an inevitable occurrence. Freedom, in an existential sense, refers to the absence of external structure. That is, humans do not enter a world which is inherently structured. We must give the world a structure which we ourselves create. Isolation recognizes that no matter how close we become to another person, a gap always remains, and we are nonetheless alone. Meaninglessness stems from the first three. If we must die, if we construct our own world, and if each of us is ultimately alone, then what meaning does life have?

 

Part of what has been really challenging for me in the past several years of realization is seeing that the structures I have been living by aren't real, and there is no "real" structure that can really replace it. Freedom is a free-fall, but with no bottom to land on. I can try to choose a life that has meaning for me and create a purpose, but part of me knows that it's not real.

 

Isolation... yes it's true, we are all one, there are no separations at the ultimate level and there is no "you or I". I feel that some of the eventual realizations of spiritual systems remedy this issue. However, there are practical day to day concerns. You can meditate on oneness all you like, and how we live in an illusion of duality through the intervention of ego; but it doesn't quite remedy the seemingly separate world. At the end of the day there is still ego, still suffering, and still aloneness.

 

Death... well, that's a given. It's hard to come to terms with one's temporariness and inevitable demise, but having come close to true death a few times now, I know it's not really anything to fear. Living is challenging, death is not.

 

This article was written for a philosophical audience, and for me it cuts right through all of the heady abstract talk of spiritual systems and gets right down to the core of why people suffer.

 

When you realize the inherent purposelessness, isolation, and temporariness of existence, how do you transform that into meaningful, loving action? I know that deep down we are love, we are connection... but I don't always feel that way. Some days I feel downright disconnected.

 

What is the solution?

 

[Aetherous]

One thing that strikes me when reading this post...people can look at the world and see it from any given perspective, and no matter what it is, there's always still some truth to what they think.

Some say that life is inherently meaningless. Others say it's inherently meaningful. Some say we're alone in this world. Others say we're surrounded by people every day. Some say freedom is release from suffering, others say it's having nothing solid in your life. Etc.
 

It seems to me that no perspective is wrong. There is the hint of truth to anything that people believe strongly.

That being said...for a person who thinks life is meaningless, it's entirely possible that they could become like the other person, and one day think that life is meaningful. It might take time, but it has happened. Perspectives are a fleeting thing. The world is not subject to any of them...it just appears like the tint of the lens we are wearing.

[Marblehead]

Plant seeds germinate, plants grow, produce flowers, then die.

 

That's how nature works.  Where's the problem?

 

If you ain't producing flowers then yes, your life has been meaningless.

[Karl]

 

 

The ultimate value is life. The primary virtue is rationality. The proper beneficiary is oneself.

 

Happiness is the only moral purpose of ones life. Happiness is the state of consciousness which proceeds from the moral achievement of ones values.

 

Or as Rand put in her own words:

 

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."

 

 

None of that is any kind of guarantee that happiness is achievable, but for certain, it is a necessity for achieving it. It is also dependent on first choosing life as the primary value and it is a choice that has to be made from second to second, day to day, year to year, throughout our entire lives. Whilst reason is the absolute, there can never be such a thing as error free reasoning, we can and do make irrational decisions based on emotions and poor thinking.

 

There is a story I read of a man who regularly explored cave systems by himself; at the point in history where he was exploring the caves there were few others doing the same and no rescue teams ready to rush out to find a missing person. The only light sources were unreliable carbide and oil lamps or candles. It is easy to become lost, disoriented or even stuck in an unfamiliar cave and as a last resort, the man carried a loaded revolver in the event of circumstances which prevent his exit to safety.

 

After many succesful solo exploits the man pushed his luck too far and became wedged in a tight crawl at which point he also lost his illumination. He spent several hours trying to get his lamps to re-ignite, but the matches were so damp that each one disintegrated the moment it was extracted from the packaging. It would no doubt have become clear to him that he would most likely die a long and lingering death as a result of lack of water and food. The intense blackness, cold and the press of the rock against his body must have felt as if he was being buried alive. No one knows how long he waited, perhaps several days hoping and praying that someone or something would rescue him as the long hours ticked away.

 

The men that eventually recovered the mans body found that it was in remarkably good condition with little sign of serious malnutrition or dehydration. The blood from the self inflicted gunshot wound appeared relatively fresh and they concluded that he had only been dead for around 12 hours. Had he hung on a few hours more he would have been rescued and have escaped with little more than a heavy thirst and a chilled body.

[cold]

The fruits, vegetables and seeds of my labor all turn to crap, my goal / preference is human crap!

[Marblehead]

The fruits, vegetables and seeds of my labor all turn to crap, my goal / preference is human crap!

 

But still, that's good fertilizer.  You will be the nutrients for other flowers, vegetables and fruit.

[Orion]

One thing that strikes me when reading this post...people can look at the world and see it from any given perspective, and no matter what it is, there's always still some truth to what they think.

 

Some say that life is inherently meaningless. Others say it's inherently meaningful. Some say we're alone in this world. Others say we're surrounded by people every day. Some say freedom is release from suffering, others say it's having nothing solid in your life. Etc.

 

It seems to me that no perspective is wrong. There is the hint of truth to anything that people believe strongly.

 

That being said...for a person who thinks life is meaningless, it's entirely possible that they could become like the other person, and one day think that life is meaningful. It might take time, but it has happened. Perspectives are a fleeting thing. The world is not subject to any of them...it just appears like the tint of the lens we are wearing.

 

I don't totally disagree... but there are foundational dissatisfactions that are not perspective based, they are experience based. Things like the Buddha talks about when he talks about suffering and dissatisfactoriness that never goes away, along with his suggested remedies. People have been talking about these aspects for a long, long time as part of the human condition.

 

It kind of undermines a person's experience to say that they just need to shift their perspective. That is the very problem that the article is talking about. Perspective shifts are within the freedom category the article mentions. You have to create your own reality if you want any kind of structure, which means choosing a perspective, which means creating an illusion.

 

I don't see how you can do inner inquiry and be a spiritual seeker without eventually running up against the awareness that nothing has inherent meaning and purpose unless you give it one, which is just another aspect of mind, which is what these hyper-intelligent self-reflective people are having difficulty reconciling. They are aware that anything you choose is just more Maya, though they may not word it that way.

 

In other words... you're talking about the subjective, when the article is talking about something rather objective. Is emptiness subjective? Impermanence? Is independent arising and dissolving subjective? No. They are true natures.

 

To choose happiness, or choose a meaning, or choose a purpose means you are creating something unreal. Yes it feels better and lets you be more productive, so perhaps it eases suffering. But existentialists have trouble with that because it never really negates the underlying foundational problem.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Orion

[Karl]

I don't totally disagree... but there are foundational dissatisfactions that are not perspective based, they are experience based. Things like the Buddha talks about when he talks about suffering and dissatisfactoriness that never goes away, along with his suggested remedies. People have been talking about these aspects for a long, long time as part of the human condition.

 

It kind of undermines a person's experience to say that they just need to shift their perspective. That is the very problem that the article is talking about. Perspective shifts are within the freedom category the article mentions. You have to create your own reality if you want any kind of structure, which means choosing a perspective, which means creating an illusion.

 

I don't see how you can do inner inquiry and be a spiritual seeker without eventually running up against the awareness that nothing has inherent meaning and purpose unless you give it one, which is just another aspect of mind, which is what these hyper-intelligent self-reflective people are having difficulty reconciling. They are aware that anything you choose is just more Maya, though they may not word it that way.

 

In other words... you're talking about the subjective, when the article is talking about something rather objective. Is emptiness subjective? Impermanence? Is independent arising and dissolving subjective? No. They are true natures.

 

To choose happiness, or choose a meaning, or choose a purpose means you are creating something unreal. Yes it feels better and lets you be more productive, so perhaps it eases suffering. But existentialists have trouble with that because it never really negates the underlying foundational problem.

This is totally correct. People talk about there being no absolutes, when that statement is an absolute; they say there is no black and white, when that statement is a black and white statement, they say existence cannot be proven whilst being incapable of seeing that proof relies on existence.

 

As you have discovered the little snag in the subjectivists philosophy. This is why existence has primacy over consciousness. We have to find our own way through life and the happiness from it. There are no certainties of success. As the saying goes 'get busy living or get busy dying'. For myself this is liberating. It's something like being a knight of the round table, having a concise, moral guide to action that is completely self-determined.

 

However, this is a hard transition, it offers no shield or whimsical hope, things are what they are and that can be a daunting and produce anxiety/depression. There is no cure for it, it's like leaving the nest, we must fly or fall. I discovered that most of the dark stuff was the result of conflicted, irrational thinking that had been digested by the mind like a bad diet.

[rene]

... To choose happiness, or choose a meaning, or choose a purpose means you are creating something unreal. ...

From that perspective, yes, unreal. From a different one - real enough.

 

Whether I have a headace, or only 'think' I have a headace, my head still hurts. No illusion there.

 

On topic, though, going deeper into only the 'empty' half of the whole is a spiral that may be hard to come out of. The deeper one goes the more difficult it might be to see the other half.

[Orion]

This is totally correct. People talk about there being no absolutes, when that statement is an absolute; they say there is no black and white, when that statement is a black and white statement, they say existence cannot be proven whilst being incapable of seeing that proof relies on existence.

 

As you have discovered the little snag in the subjectivists philosophy. This is why existence has primacy over consciousness. We have to find our own way through life and the happiness from it. There are no certainties of success. As the saying goes 'get busy living or get busy dying'. For myself this is liberating. It's something like being a knight of the round table, having a concise, moral guide to action that is completely self-determined.

 

However, this is a hard transition, it offers no shield or whimsical hope, things are what they are and that can be a daunting and produce anxiety/depression. There is no cure for it, it's like leaving the nest, we must fly or fall. I discovered that most of the dark stuff was the result of conflicted, irrational thinking that had been digested by the mind like a bad diet.

 

Get busy living or get busy dying... well, we're all dying regardless if we're busy or not. I understand your assertion about the primacy of existence, I really do.

 

My question though is... how do we exercise free will within Maya? Any choice we make, any perspective we adopt, anything we want to do, is just adding a fake layer over the truth. It's creating karma for no real reason. (I use this words as language placeholders for lack of better terms, don't get too hung up over them.)

 

If you sit down with most really intelligent people, even those who are happy, they will admit that the primacy of this problem underlies everything. Even in my happiest, most blissed out moments in this life, I still saw those moments as being unreal. It seems like moment you grasp onto anything, you're already in delusion. How do you choose without attachment if any choice leads to what is unreal?

 

There are no structures that are real, so why create structures?

 

I just don't understand how anyone derives contentment in this life post-awakening. I see awake people who are blissed out, loving, and such a joy to be around. How the fuck do they feel that way about such a sham?? My question is serious, I want to know!

 

This is the spiral I'm stuck in, as rene put it above. I don't know how to extricate myself. It feels part of the process but I have not yet been able to antidote it. There is objective truth in this, but some kind of limitation of my perspective is preventing me from seeing it as liberating vs. limiting. Do I just live from my inner virtue even if I knew it's temporal and as bullshit as everything else?

 

It seems totally hopeless and maybe that's point. Maybe I'm too attached to it having a loving, blissful outcome, when really these realizations are total shyte. But they are the truth, nonetheless, and you gain absolutely nothing from seeing it?

Edited September 4, 2016 by Orion

[rene]

I just don't understand how anyone derives contentment in this life post-awakening. I see awake people who are blissed out, loving, and such a joy to be around. How the fuck do they feel that way about such a sham?? My question is serious, I want to know!

 

The people you describe understand that the 'empty' is only half; that everything is both real and illusion (using your term); that structures and happy and sad and all the joys and sorrows of life are just as vitally present in this moment as are the non-separate aspects of the non-dual. Both.

 

This is the spiral I'm stuck in, as rene put it above. I don't know how to extricate myself. It feels part of the process but I have not yet been able to antidote it. There is objective truth in this, but some kind of limitation of my perspective is preventing me from seeing it as liberating vs. limiting. Do I just live from my inner virtue even if I knew it's temporal and as bullshit as everything else?

That is one option. Another might be to set the 'only emptiness' idea down for just a little while.. and ponder how real everything is also. Let yourself naturally come back to a point of equilibrium - where both are simultaneously present, the empty and the full. (-:

 

Warmest regards

.

.

Edited September 4, 2016 by rene

[liminal_luke]

 Some days I feel downright disconnected.

 

What is the solution?

 

I don´t know that I have a solution but I´ll share my bias.  For me, the answer lies in awareness of the nitty-gritty of bodily sensation and felt emotion.  You say you feel disconnected, and I think that´s a great place to start.  Just acknowledging that feeling of disconnection as you feel it.  It´s not a philosophical position you read about here on TDB, not some notion from any spiritual tradition -- it´s a real honest feeling.  It has weight, location, a quality you can describe and recognize.

 

The feeling of being disconnected might not be a feeling you like, but it´s a real feeling and it´s yours. Behind and around that feeling are a hundred other feelings you can discover if you stick with it, and some of those feelings might be more to your liking.  The feeling of disconnection is a door and who knows what´s on the other side?  Maybe connection.  Maybe joy.

Edited September 4, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Karl]

Get busy living or get busy dying... well, we're all dying regardless if we're busy or not. I understand your assertion about the primacy of existence, I really do.

 

My question though is... how do we exercise free will within Maya? Any choice we make, any perspective we adopt, anything we want to do, is just adding a fake layer over the truth. It's creating karma for no real reason. (I use this words as language placeholders for lack of better terms, don't get too hung up over them.)

 

If you sit down with most really intelligent people, even those who are happy, they will admit that the primacy of this problem underlies everything. Even in my happiest, most blissed out moments in this life, I still saw those moments as being unreal. It seems like moment you grasp onto anything, you're already in delusion. How do you choose without attachment if any choice leads to what is unreal?

 

There are no structures that are real, so why create structures?

 

I just don't understand how anyone derives contentment in this life post-awakening. I see awake people who are blissed out, loving, and such a joy to be around. How the fuck do they feel that way about such a sham?? My question is serious, I want to know!

 

This is the spiral I'm stuck in, as rene put it above. I don't know how to extricate myself. It feels part of the process but I have not yet been able to antidote it. There is objective truth in this, but some kind of limitation of my perspective is preventing me from seeing it as liberating vs. limiting. Do I just live from my inner virtue even if I knew it's temporal and as bullshit as everything else?

 

It seems totally hopeless and maybe that's point. Maybe I'm too attached to it having a loving, blissful outcome, when really these realizations are total shyte. But they are the truth, nonetheless, and you gain absolutely nothing from seeing it?

Where am I ? How do I know it ? What should I do ?

 

Is this what you are asking ?

 

You want to be in bliss, but then I don't. I don't subscribe to it, don't look for it or want it. It looks awfully like the somatic lifestyle from Aldous Huxley, the hippy dream. Turn on, tune in, drop out. For a long while I wanted that, but it looks like evasion now. I wouldn't want it even if I could have it.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Karl

[Aetherous]

there are foundational dissatisfactions that are not perspective based, they are experience based

 

There might be truth to this...but there is also truth to the idea that there are foundational satisfactions. Simply being alive, taking a breath, being outside, can be an incredibly blissful experience. Challenge in life, what we temporarily call suffering, can be rewarding when overcome. This isn't even mentioning the interpersonal things...like compassion for those hurting, romantic love, good friendships, the joy of hanging out with your pet dog, etc...all of which are very meaningful experiences.

 

It is in your experience that life is meaningless and dull. My only intention is to point out: it's totally not the same for everyone. Don't paint the entire world grey with your philosophy. Better to choose a life affirming philosophy...not just for the sake of health, but because it's at least equally as true as this existentialism (which by the way, has nothing to do with Buddhism).

[Karl]

I don´t know that I have a solution but I´ll share my bias.  For me, the answer lies in awareness of the nitty-gritty of bodily sensation and felt emotion.  You say you feel disconnected, and I think that´s a great place to start.  Just acknowledging that feeling of disconnection as you feel it.  It´s not a philosophical position you read about here on TDB, not some notion from any spiritual tradition -- it´s a real honest feeling.  It has weight, location, a quality you can describe and recognize.

 

The feeling of being disconnected might not be a feeling you like, but it´s a real feeling and it´s yours. Behind and around that feeling are a hundred other feelings you can discover if you stick with it, and some of those feelings might be more to your liking.  The feeling of disconnection is a door and who knows what´s on the other side?  Maybe connection.  Maybe joy.

This is something I practised for a very long time. It's an affirmation of sorts, an acceptance of how one feels without rejection, or ignorant acceptance. This is the beginnings of 'the witness' which is a more objective sense of self. The next thing to do is to explore what thoughts the feeling is connected to. It isn't just a feeling, there are words behind it. This is a further development of the witness in which feelings become of less importance and now the words/thoughts are seen and there is no particular need to follow the feeling.

 

I was thinking that this stage can be short circuited if there is already enough-I will use the AYP term of 'stillness of mind'-to facilitate an objective view of thoughts as they arise. The emotion remains, it's like a signal lamp, but tracing the wires reveals that the emotion is not the cause, it is only the effect.

 

Fastening on the emotion as a true arbiter without having developed sufficient stillness, is like non-relational self inquiry, it can lead to the idea that emotions are the true guides, that instinct and feelings are preferable to reasoned thought and that creates its own problems. in addiction, the emotions have become a substitute for rational thought and it become easier to obey those feelings than to confront the problem, the action to a bad feeling is to have more drugs, eat, sex, buy, gamble in order to bring on a temporary feeling of pleasure, but this is pleasure without value, it is pleasure for pleasures sake and is destructive.

[Orion]

Thanks everyone for the replies so far.

[9th]

“We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.”

 

- Carlos Castaneda

[thelerner]

 

When you realize the inherent purposelessness, isolation, and temporariness of existence, how do you transform that into meaningful, loving action? I know that deep down we are love, we are connection... but I don't always feel that way. Some days I feel downright disconnected.

 

What is the solution?

The only solution I've found is rolling my sleeves and getting to work.  The purpose of life is the reality of living your life.  Do it well, pay attention.  Occasionally ponder the imponderables, but not too much, lest it take away and darken the present.