Chinese swordsmanship texts sought

[Taomeow]

Venerable sages,

 

can someone recommend a good textual source (in English) for Chinese swordsmanship, taoist jian, and/or around these topics?  The interest is pragmatic, and is both general and specific.  Specifically, I want to find out if any texts exist on the technique of drawing a jian from the back.  

 

I know it's not done in modern times -- the length of the jian exceeds that of your arm, so, no go.  But I've heard rumors that taoists used to not only carry jians on the back -- as Lu Dongbin does in this picture, e.g. --

 

 

-- but possessed either a special design of the scabbard that enabled them to draw the jian from the back (the speed of the move is crucial in some situations, an attacker might not wait an extra few seconds for you to get the scabbard into a convenient position in the front to draw your weapon),

 

or -- second rumor -- there exists a move you can execute which teachers kept secret from students because teaching this move would make the student quite dangerous should they ever have a falling-out, or because the teacher always wanted to stay ahead of the student and never taught everything -- until the secret either got lost, or became very hard to research out of oblivion. 

 

Would greatly appreciate any and all pointers if anyone can offer any.   

[Daeluin]

One of the aspects of the Jian I find most fascinating, is how they are often used ceremonially, and to ward off ghosts and effect a cleansing. I ponder how this might relate to the water-phase resonance of the Jian, particularly related to how qi that is extended through the full long and narrow length might have a condensing and stilling effect on nearby energy, helping to seal it. I had this revelation after reading about the energetic influence of quartz upon the lung-kidney relationship in the book Stone Medicine, which goes into elaborate detail on the way crystal structures influence the meridian-organ flows and how to use them for healing treatments. The clear and hard structure of quartz assists the condensing of metal into water as the lungs inhale deeply through the diaphragm such that the energy in the lungs descends to the kidneys where they can grasp it as the ming-men point is stimulated, where the kidneys then help to disperse the yuan qi to the body through the triple burner transportation points along the back to the organs with the exhale.

 

In any case, I have until recently associated the Jian with the rolling wave like motion of the ocean with occasional piercing/freezing thrusts that do not break the flow. Now I connect more with the deep stillness of the ocean that accesses the deeper and more poignant layers of energy. When used appropriately I imagine it can penetrate quite far, spiritually speaking.

 

As for back-drawing, I recall a wuxia movie where a woman used a back mounted jian. In particular my curiosity was drawn to the strapping system used, as it seemed very precise and pragmatic, the simple cords not likely to be part of some wuxia flourish for show. She was also very practiced with it and drew it like lightning, IIRC. It is possible the strapping particulars allowed some trick to work with the drawing.

 

I'll see if I can figure out which one. Not one of the new ones, but probably from the 70's-80's. One of those where there are two sophisticated martial arts families who end up fighting each other... I believe the hero is male but maybe wields a spear, while his sister and he are sent off to reclaim a stolen weapon stolen from the other family, and I think the sword she wields is also special to the family. So... pretty standard. Just how many wuxia movies are there anyway.... a lot more than I thought...

[Taoist Texts]

Venerable sages,

 

can someone recommend a good textual source (in English) for Chinese swordsmanship, taoist jian, and/or around these topics?  The interest is pragmatic, and is both general and specific.  Specifically, I want to find out if any texts exist on the technique of drawing a jian from the back.  

 

 

Would greatly appreciate any and all pointers if anyone can offer any.   

You may wanna order this back issue from them

 

"Emei Sword Drawing Skill - The Forgotten Art of Drawing the Jian By John P. Painter Ph. D. ND"

 

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=567

[Taomeow]

Many thanks for the responses.

 

A&P, cool!  I'll watch your videos a bit later, got some stuff lined up...  Will report back.

 

Daeluin, as usual, thank you for your thoughts.  My jian is actually etched with a name that means Dragon Well...  It's funny that when I started practicing, I decided to name the sword and choose a name that means "metal producing water" but sounds a bit more poetic than that.  Got the name, told my teacher, he goes, no, that's the name of an acupuncture point on the sole of your foot...   well, I knew that, but I thought, why not, Bubbling Well can mean what I wanted it to mean too and the point still refers to Water, Kidneys meridian, right?  No, not right.  This is a weapon, you need to honor its nature...  Fine.  Dragon Well works both ways. 

 

Taoist Texts -- you are amazing.  They say there's three kinds of wisdom -- knowing, knowing where to look, and knowing who to ask where to look.  You possess all three!     Deep bow. 

[Daeluin]

OK, not sure if this is same film I was thinking of, but is the same actress and sword strapping style:

Kara Hui in 8 Diagram Pole Fighter

 

Looks like there's one up here.... see the scene at about 54 minutes in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbuhYe0tdfM

 

There is definitely some purpose to the cords, but upon close frame-by-frame examination of a better source, we don't get to witness the actual drawing or sheathing. It would clearly be too long to draw or sheath without pulling the sheath further down the back.

[Taomeow]

  Something that sheds some light on at least one technique -- though it's not shown:  the woman arrives on horseback.  It is possible to place the jian anywhere convenient on a horse, so when used in mounted combat it can be drawn immediately. 

 

There's a Chinese historical anecdote about an assassination attempt on an emperor.  The emperor could not be approached by anyone bearing weapons.  The conspirators devised a plan to wrap the sword in a painted scroll presented to him as a gift.  At the decisive moment the assassin discovered that he was unable to draw the sword from the rolled scroll in the position in which it was presented -- the sword was too long.  The emperor got to rule some more.   

[Andrei]

   the sword was too long.  

 

That is the thing. A Jian is not designed to be drawn from the back, unless is short like a ninja sword. Jian historically was a pedestrian weapon and it is supposed to be worn hanging from the belt. A horse riding saber will be always curved so that it can be drawn easier. For that purpose is designed the dao. Also a jian is designed for stabbing and that's why is straight while a saber/dao is curved and is designed for chopping, since on the horse back you can't stab.

 

Da dao is even a bigger saber that was designed to cut horses legs. So each weapon has its own purpose depending on the role of the warrior on the battlefield.

 

By the way a jian has to have a length that matches your arm length, if you hold the handle in your hand with the blade resting on your arm vertically and the blade tip behind your back, the tip of the blade should be above your shoulder but shouldn't pass over the bottom tip of your ear. 

Edited September 6, 2016 by Andrei

[leth]

Unfortunatly i'm not at the same location as my sword books, so I can't give you mych of an extensive listing, but of the top of my head here are some of the better books available in english:

 

• The Major Methods of Wudang Sword –  Huang Yuan Xiou
• The Art of Chinese Swordsmanship: Manual of Taiji Jian – Yun Zhang
• Chinese Swordsmanship The Yang Family Taiji Jian Tradition – Scott M. Rodell (Author)
• Taiji Sword – Chen Wei-Ming

 

 

There is also more academic book about chinese swords, from an archeological perspective, which might be interesting if you're into that thing, but its clearly writen by an academian with no knowledge in swordsmanship. Either way it might be an interesting book to understand the history of chinese swords (it's very academic dry and dull, but personaly i don't mind that):

 

• Chinese Swords: The Evolution and Use of the Jian and Dao – Martina Sprague
   

In general swords were not drawn from the back, not anywhere in the world, It's generaly not very practicall, most swords are simply too long to make this convinient. But there are exceptions. Can't say I know of a known historical source of this in china. Swords have been worn on the back, but that is mostly for transport, and they were not really ready to be drawn in such a state. The Jian has also been a status symbol, and for many who had a jian, ever drawing it and using it was not expected. The Dao was however more of a military weapon more often used in combat. (Though it should be said that the jian was also used on the battlefield, it was just rare)

 

As for secrets, there has been a long tradition of keeping secrets in chinese martial arts in general, mostly from outsiders of the family, but also from ones own students. Sometimes there is a difference of what is show to outsiders and what is show to the "in door" students. Sometimes knowledge was lost. As for moves that were dangerous, perhaps not, but it could happen, in general there are no such techniques. Though what probably happend was master not teaching everything for fear of their students outperforming them, this still happens today.

 

EDIT: Added part about drawing from the back

EDIT2: Added parts about secrets.

Edited September 6, 2016 by leth

[Taomeow]

Andrei,

 

I was referring to the movie scene. 

 

Each weapon has its primary use, that's true, but its range is not limited to that.  E.g. I can use the jian for a blunt strike with the handle (against an opponent who's too close, when there's no time to step back, or in a cramped up space, e.g.), for cutting, chopping, slicing, piercing, etc., in pretty much any situation.  A jian was a preferred weapon of taoists, who didn't specialize in being warriors in the battlefield.  They specialized in being universalists.  I practice taiji jian, and one of the things you learn in taiji is to use your environment -- everything in your environment -- to your advantage and not treat anything as an obstacle. 

 

It is what it is (pending familiarizing myself with the article referenced by Taoist Texts) -- a technique to find, or a legend of its existence.  To be determined.

 

The length in reference to your own arm and the balance point of the jian are crucial, of course.  Which is both true and annoying, because I would like to have a folding jian for travel, and a wooden one for practice wherever I want, but none of the ones I tried fit the bill.  The wooden ones are off balance all of them, and the folding one...  forget it.  Easier to use an umbrella. 

Edited September 6, 2016 by Taomeow

[Taomeow]

Leth,

 

great!  Thank you very much.   I will explore. 

[dust]

It would clearly be too long to draw or sheath without pulling the sheath further down the back.

 

Surely that would be a reasonable technique? Pull the scabbard down as you pull the sword up. Tying suchly with cords would allow some manipulation of the scabbard without letting it flop all over the place.

 

Sorry, Taomeow. I know you're not asking for speculation from the untrained clueless. But it's an interesting topic...

[Daeluin]

Surely that would be a reasonable technique? Pull the scabbard down as you pull the sword up. Tying suchly with cords would allow some manipulation of the scabbard without letting it flop all over the place.

 

Sorry, Taomeow. I know you're not asking for speculation from the untrained clueless. But it's an interesting topic...

 

Could be. Is hard to know, as many techniques are easily dismissed as being without worth until one reaches deeply enough to where the secret is revealed. Because of this, exploring based on celestial principles rather than martial techniques could yield interesting directions of exploration.

 

As this is said to be a method employed by taoists, who perhaps had less interest in fighting and more interest in energetics, there could be answers encoded in this. Taoists work within the dynamic of heaven and earth, and having the jian strapped to the back, where it is aligned with the spine, could have important energetic uses. Having the jian difficult to remove could allow easy use as a piston, and partially drawing and engaging the water/condensing/sealing effects could quickly lead to sealing energies within the sheath, perhaps? No idea, just exploring avenues that appear in my mind.

 

As for drawing, my jian is a couple inches short of proper length and I still have trouble drawing it shoulder mounted, but is definitely possible when I pull the sheath down or out to the other side with my free hand. I don't really see how this could be dangerous, but I don't know anything. One of my favorite moves is slicing in a horizontal circle centered at one's neck, which requires leaning back under the swing as it goes behind you. Perhaps the back-mounted-draw is similar to this in some way, but with one leaning horizontally forward for the draw, circling or twisting in a creative way as the jian clears the sheath to take advantage of the horizontal positioning. Secrets may be lost, but should never underestimate our ability to be creative.

 

Also, on Jian length, over at swordforums I once read that shorter jians were more useful in cities as they could be more easily concealed under a cloak and more easily utilized within the confines of city streets, allies, doorways and hallways. A taoist may not have this same need, but do we know if the taoist utilized the same standards of length we use today? I've come across some jian on ebay that were clearly designed with daoist symbols for ceremonial use and were not designed for cutting in any way, but is hard to know... I'd imagine the average daoist immortal to make use of what is common and simple, not needing anything extravagant.

[doc benway]

You could contact Scott Rodell. He claims to be knowledgeable about the use of jian in particular and is the author of one of the books referenced above by leth.

His webpage is - https://www.grtc.org/.

Good luck!

 

PS - there is a way to wear and draw a relatively long sword from the back. It works better with curved swords but can be adapted to jian. I can't speak to whether it was used in China. It involves drawing out with the sword hand while simultaneously pulling the scabbard down with the opposite hand. The other "trick" is that the mouth of the scabbard can be partly split on one side, allowing the blade tip to release early. The "tricky" part is knowing exactly where the opening is and not opening your self...

Such split scabbards are often used with other bladed weapons such as the karambit.

[doc benway]

 

As for drawing, my jian is a couple inches short of proper length and I still have trouble drawing it shoulder mounted, but is definitely possible when I pull the sheath down or out to the other side with my free hand. I don't really see how this could be dangerous, but I don't know anything. 

 

The danger lies in the fact that a sharp sword can occasionally split its own sheath, especially is there is a an assymetric force applied to the sheath. I've seen folks cut their own hand when the sheath split as they drew the sword (or knife).

[Daeluin]

The danger lies in the fact that a sharp sword can occasionally split its own sheath, especially is there is a an assymetric force applied to the sheath. I've seen folks cut their own hand when the sheath split as they drew the sword (or knife).

 

Something I've heard about the Jian was that it was only traditionally kept sharp at the last 2-3 inches, but I don't know what tradition this is from or how widespread it was.

[doc benway]

Something I've heard about the Jian was that it was only traditionally kept sharp at the last 2-3 inches, but I don't know what tradition this is from or how widespread it was.

 

It's true that most of the cutting is done in the distal 1/4 - 1/3.

That is also the area kept sharpest in Japanese swords, it's referred to as the monouchi.

Whether the rest of the sword is unsharpened, I don't know.

I've never seen an antique Japanese sword that wasn't fully sharpened.

I've only handled a few antique jian and they were fully sharpened as well.

[Taomeow]

The danger lies in the fact that a sharp sword can occasionally split its own sheath, especially is there is a an assymetric force applied to the sheath. I've seen folks cut their own hand when the sheath split as they drew the sword (or knife).

 

Maybe some modern materials can be used -- some titanium reinforced canvas?  The danger is realistic, definitely.  I drag all my weapons to practice in a pretty sturdy canvas bag, yet one of them -- I suspect the Longevity Cane though, not the jian in its scabbard -- made a hole in the upper part of the bag, on the side.  For a while, incidentally, I found it very convenient for drawing the jian out of the scabbard without opening the bag, until the hole got bigger and the whole thing simply fell out one day when I accidentally turned the bag upside down.  I mended the hole with a thick thread, and now it's shaped a particular way, asymmetrically, and there's ideas brewing for the scabbard shaped in a funky way....  reinforced with titanium...  LOL.  I'm not an engineer, unfortunately, and not much of a seamstress...  and don't have any in bondage to order the design...  

 

Which reminds me, on a tangent...  You know how the Japanese samurai tested his new sword?  He would go out, call a random passer-by -- come here -- and lop his head off.  Only then would he pay the swordsmith.  Or lop his head off, as the case may be. 

[doc benway]

It was also common practice in Japan to use prisoners for the so-called "cutting tests."

They would practice different types of cuts, multiple bodies, and so forth.

Fortunately, they would kill the prisoner first.

Often the results of the tests were inscribed on the tang of the sword.

Here's info on a sword that was able to cut through 3 bodies in a cutting test!

 

PS - the practice you mention was outlawed around 1600, after which it was punishable by death

Edited September 7, 2016 by steve

[Taomeow]

They killed the prisoner first?.. Well...  They (correction: we all) definitely made a lot of progress by the mid-20th century and Unit 731...  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

 

Anyway...  didn't mean to derail my own thread.  Thanks for the interesting information. 

[exorcist_1699]

The best writings about swordsmanship ever written is called " 渾元劍經" , roughly can be translated as " Jing ( 'classics') of Primordial Swordsmanship" , which in fact is the main writings of a Taoist lineage called Sword Immortals ( "劍仙" ) school . The Sword Immortals are group of people who are famous for, or partially accused of , their capability of projecting sword-like qi , long distance away , to fight with others or to interfere with earthly matters ... The book's author is Bi Kun , a guy who lived in the Ming Dynasty .

Not a lengthy work to translate, it is my lack of experience in swordsmanship that blocks me from introducing you guys such an important and magnificent work in Taoism .

Edited September 28, 2016 by exorcist_1699

[doc benway]

They killed the prisoner first?.. Well...  They (correction: we all) definitely made a lot of progress by the mid-20th century and Unit 731...  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

 

Anyway...  didn't mean to derail my own thread.  Thanks for the interesting information. 

 Yes, the sword testers were among the most elite of swordspersons in feudal Japan.

They took the job very seriously. I doubt the prisoners were executed before testing for humanitarian reasons.

Rather they didn't want them wiggling and potentially damaging an important sword.

Only highly valued swords were tested.

[Taomeow]

The best writings regarding swordsmanship ever written is called " 渾元劍經" , roughly can be translated as " Jing ( 'classics') of Primordial Swordsmanship" , which in fact is the main writings of a Taoist lineage called Sword Immortals ( "劍仙" ) school . The Sword Immortals are group of people who are famous for, or partially accused of , their capability of projecting sword-like qi , long distance away , to fight with others or to interfere earthly matters ... The book's author is Bi Kun , a guy who lives in the Ming Dynasty .

 

Not a lengthy work to translate, it is my lack of experience in swordsmanship that blocks me from introducing you guys such an important and magnificent work in Taoism .

 

Exorcist,

 

thank you very much!  Sounds great.

 

Maybe you could team up with someone experienced in swordsmanship to translate it? 

 

In the meantime, I'll check if the text has been translated into Russian.  

[joeblast]

PS - there is a way to wear and draw a relatively long sword from the back. It works better with curved swords but can be adapted to jian. I can't speak to whether it was used in China. It involves drawing out with the sword hand while simultaneously pulling the scabbard down with the opposite hand.

that was pretty much what I saw when she drew, although the view wasnt 100% in frame for the entire sequence   it went with a lean forward move..

 

(in the aforementioned movie)

Edited September 7, 2016 by joeblast

[Brian]

It was also common practice in Japan to use prisoners for the so-called "cutting tests."

They would practice different types of cuts, multiple bodies, and so forth.

Fortunately, they would kill the prisoner first.

Often the results of the tests were inscribed on the tang of the sword.

Here's info on a sword that was able to cut through 3 bodies in a cutting test!

 

PS - the practice you mention was outlawed around 1600, after which it was punishable by death

Since we are already off-topic here...

 

I had an uncle who was taken prisoner in the South Pacific. He told me a story once, only time he ever told about his experiences, about a time when two officers settled a swordsmanship by making two lines of prisoners and seeing who could lop off heads faster. I suppose we'd say today that he suffered from PTSD.

[dawei]

http://www.scholarsage.com/beginning-the-jian/?print=pdf

 

https://ymaa.com/articles/daoism-and-the-sword

 

http://ymaa.com/files/Tai-Chi-Sword-Book-Sample.pdf

 

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Chinese-Swordsmanship-Manual-Taiji/dp/0834804123