The Now as a spiritual escapism.

[3bob]

Since the topic drifted somewhat I'll comment on the drift:

Mind and ego are like computers and related programs.  We could say we have a computer or a mind, but the computer or mind is not us nor are its various programs.  It is very revealing when the Spirit of us sees how its been way-laid and enthralled by mind and or ego driven programs that can act like a dictator  or imposter that takes over.

[Karl]

Since the topic drifted somewhat I'll comment on the drift:

Mind and ego are like computers and related programs.  We could say we have a computer or a mind, but the computer or mind is not us nor are its various programs.  It is very revealing when the Spirit of us sees how its been way-laid and enthralled by mind and or ego driven programs that can act like a dictator  or imposter that takes over.

We are the content and activity of our minds, the mind is the ego. Spirit could be regarded as the soul, it is an axiomatic fact and indivisible. We are alive and conscious of existence that much is known, but we cannot know how, spirit is therefore the nature of man as a volitional creature with his mind as the only tool for his survival.

 

To say the mind is separate from ego is the ego trying to seperate mind from ego. No such thing is possible. To introduce spirit as yet another mechanism of cognition is doubly confusing. We are our minds, our minds are our ego. There are no other minds/spirits looking at mind. There is mind looking a mind and only that - called introspection.

 

We can change our minds, that is to say to alter the content by redefining our philosophies in light of new experiences, or in relation to our success/happiness in life. Often our minds just don't do much thinking, we just swallow preconceived, pre packaged philosophies in a piece meal sense and regurgitate them when making choices. Few think enough to examine if those philosophies will support making the best decision, it's more like an automatic action.

 

Think of all those phrases we adopt "money is the root of all evil" contrasting with "a fair days pay for a fair days work" or "too many cooks spoil the broth" contrasting with "many hands make light work". We say "it's fine in theory, but not in practice" or "that maybe true for you but not for me", that "no one can help what they do". The list of appropriated philosophy is what determines our thoughts and actions, but few examine the philosophies at all, they have become integrated into a great mass of conflicting, contradictions and floating abstractions devoid of definitions related to concrete reality. It's no wonder it is described as 'being asleep'. It is no asleep, but a refusal to think that is the problem.

[3bob]

until we see mind (a multiple-use tool) and ego (which often becomes a dictatorial programmer) then that is the limit of our reality for dictators tend to die hard.  

Edited September 7, 2016 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

But even dictators are subject to "behavior modification".  They don't necessarily need be killed.

[Stosh]

Many times, I've been told when thoughts that makes me feel sad or have a an emotion that is not desirable and such that i should be in the now and not dwell on the past or what is going to happen.

 

It is true that not thinking or just thinking about what is in the now.. makes me feel better and relax and such... but i see it as a kind of escapism of the thoughts that makes me feel sad...it is like not dealing with them and with what they are trying to point to.. and running into the now where they don't exist. 

 

No matter how a person stays in the now and train his mind to be in the present moment, there are triggers that is going to appear in the now that will awaken back the thoughts he tried to escape from by altering his focusing in the now. these thoughts will always stay there waiting for you to get triggered or lose your focus back into them to.

 

these thoughts are there for a reason, and demand your attention to be healed and transformed. they are the result of the past and exist in the now, but need to be triggered and if not healed, they will be in your future.

 

what do you think, is it an escapism? and how to actually deal with these thoughts without escaping them?

 

Thank you

Im thinking, I - (we , most likely ), already spend a huge amount of time , reliving , reviewing , dwelling , self criticizing , fuming .... none of that really actually makes me or us do better than that which we could do without the negativity of dwelling on it.

I physically 'autopilot along'  in the meantime . Which means ,  I or you, do NOT gain by dwelling on bad stuff , AS it is! Its should be already be self evident to you that this is correct. Yes , occasionally there are times when negative feelings redirect our energies to some productive thing or other . RARELY ! 

If you consider it escaping, well ,then by all means , escape from that craziness if you can. Just do it making umm one NEW good decision per day .ANd execute without second guessing all the time.

 If someday one could look back , and instead of looking at what we physically did ,  instead,, viewed the thoughts I-we were having all day long , I think we , or at least I , would be horrified if we just never-broke- that -habit -ever , ,,for our whole life we made ourselves suffer? ??

At the very least one should try to fix their mindset , and if they escape a bit of crap along the way , thats all for the better. Its a hard life otherwise. 

I can safely say all this because no one ever heeds me.,, not even me a lot of the time. 

Edited September 7, 2016 by Stosh

[Karl]

But even dictators are subject to "behavior modification".  They don't necessarily need be killed.

That's nice.

[Karl]

until we see mind (a multiple-use tool) and ego (which often becomes a dictatorial programmer) then that is the limit of our reality for dictators tend to die hard.

 

Mind is ego, there is no seperation. Our minds aren't some passive system that we interrogate by means of something else, our minds are active, dynamic and changing. We can and can only interrogate ourselves, in effect focusing awareness internally on our mental activity and questioning how we know it to be true in order that we can decide what we should do.

 

There is no dictatorial programmer, there is poor filtering of philosophical inputs.

 

For instance, the other day there were pictures on the TV of people on hospital beds in Syria. The patients had nebuliser masks and bandages, they were getting washed with hose pipes in order to wash off the chemicals that has been dropped upon them. Yet, people see these things and just assume it's true, but we don't know if it is true because these scenes were filmed within Syria by those not supportive of the Assad regime. We don't know if it's real, or even if it was, who dropped the gas, where they dropped it or why they did so. How many ask the questions ?

 

We absorb so much from parents, friends, school, media, books and then we fail to check to see if it is real. We are told that it's all about feelings, that we should simply react to what we feel and the philosophies we imbibe are related to 'feelings'. Our schools preach childish 'expression' our art ignores any kind of aesthetic sensibilities, our economics praises rising prices over falling prices-in the new Orwellian world inflation is a natural good that we should engineer into our lives. We are told culture, particularly any form of tribal culture is good no matter if it actually is, that we should preserve folk art and language at any cost, despite it being rejected entirely by the mainstream.

 

All we need to do is stop emoting and flapping about every little thing we are told to flap about; be it whales, newts, Mother Earth, drowned children, or unfairness/equality. We should stop with the 'expressing' and start with the introspection that leads us to align our internal thoughts with concrete reality. Instead of crashing through the forest with our arms waving, screaming like lunatics, we should think and plan our best passage.

[3bob]

what is far more revealing and in a way disconcerting is when we find out that our particular mind is only ours in a certain way or like an appearance yet also part of the totality of mind...with such being that the mind or an apparent 'our mind' is then seen for what it is - being a computer like thing which runs computer like programs that can get lost in 'thinking' they are true identity or that ego driven programs are true identity.  "Mind" is an excellent servant but a conflicted master...

[Karl]

what is far more revealing and in a way disconcerting is when we find out that our particular mind is only ours in a certain way or like an appearance yet also part of the totality of mind...with such being that the mind or an apparent 'our mind' is then seen for what it is - being a computer like thing which runs computer like programs that can get lost in 'thinking' they are true identity or that ego driven programs are true identity.  "Mind" is an excellent servant but a conflicted master...

We can only think our way straight. We can have crippled, stunted egos just like plants that are kept without light and derived of nutrients or water. Our egos can bloom into full flower if we attend to them carefully. A crippled ego is unhappy, limited, has no pride of feeling of self worth, often this results in bullying, violence, drugs, sex addictions in an attempt to bring some sense of control to life-small ego. There is no master and slave, there is the mind that is either functioning well, or it isn't. Anyone with a healthy brain, in a free environment is capable of improving their minds and hence their egos can blossom full and ripe.

[Stosh]

Mind is ego, there is no seperation. Our minds aren't some passive system that we interrogate by means of something else, our minds are active, dynamic and changing. We can and can only interrogate ourselves, in effect focusing awareness internally on our mental activity and questioning how we know it to be true in order that we can decide what we should do.

 

There is no dictatorial programmer, there is poor filtering of philosophical inputs.

 

For instance, the other day there were pictures on the TV of people on hospital beds in Syria. The patients had nebuliser masks and bandages, they were getting washed with hose pipes in order to wash off the chemicals that has been dropped upon them. Yet, people see these things and just assume it's true, but we don't know if it is true because these scenes were filmed within Syria by those not supportive of the Assad regime. We don't know if it's real, or even if it was, who dropped the gas, where they dropped it or why they did so. How many ask the questions ?

 

We absorb so much from parents, friends, school, media, books and then we fail to check to see if it is real. We are told that it's all about feelings, that we should simply react to what we feel and the philosophies we imbibe are related to 'feelings'. Our schools preach childish 'expression' our art ignores any kind of aesthetic sensibilities, our economics praises rising prices over falling prices-in the new Orwellian world inflation is a natural good that we should engineer into our lives. We are told culture, particularly any form of tribal culture is good no matter if it actually is, that we should preserve folk art and language at any cost, despite it being rejected entirely by the mainstream.

 

All we need to do is stop emoting and flapping about every little thing we are told to flap about; be it whales, newts, Mother Earth, drowned children, or unfairness/equality. We should stop with the 'expressing' and start with the introspection that leads us to align our internal thoughts with concrete reality. Instead of crashing through the forest with our arms waving, screaming like lunatics, we should think and plan our best passage.

But I Am concerned about the crater lake newts , To me its far more important that the last Buccaneers game results.

Since everyone gets to pick what to be concerned about regardless of societies mainstream verdict on tribal culture is.. and that can also be considered choosing ones best passage. Rest easy , everyone is Already doing the best they know. 

[3bob]

a ripe and full ego can become mature enough to accept its death so Spirit can come to the forefront... it can also become a sort of demon full of itself. 

[rene]

But I Am concerned about the crater lake newts , To me its far more important that the last Buccaneers game results.

Since everyone gets to pick what to be concerned about regardless of societies mainstream verdict on tribal culture is.. and that can also be considered choosing ones best passage. Rest easy , everyone is Already doing the best they know.

(-: Nice to see you, Stosh

[Karl]

a ripe and full ego can become mature enough to accept its death so Spirit can come to the forefront... it can also become a sort of demon full of itself.

 

There aren't any demons. If you understood what a full ego meant you would never harbour such ideas. Everyone has to eventually accept their death, those that have the most crippled egos are more likely to welcome it much earlier. Those with full egos fight for survival until they cannot fight any more. Spirit dies when we die, they aren't separable.

[Karl]

But I Am concerned about the crater lake newts , To me its far more important that the last Buccaneers game results.

Since everyone gets to pick what to be concerned about regardless of societies mainstream verdict on tribal culture is.. and that can also be considered choosing ones best passage. Rest easy , everyone is Already doing the best they know.

 

What are you doing about the crater lake newts ? Presuming these are a high value to your life I assume you are doing something properly practical in your personal love of these creatures. Why not buy the crater and then look after it ?

[3bob]

Karl, your pov only applies to you, (or those that more or less agree with you) and if you are 1/10 as smart as you think you are you would realize that... as for my witness anyone can take it or leave it, for its no biggy here. 

Edited September 7, 2016 by 3bob

[Stosh]

What are you doing about the crater lake newts ? Presuming these are a high value to your life I assume you are doing something properly practical in your personal love of these creatures. Why not buy the crater and then look after it ?

Its not within my purview to do anything about it. For one thing, its a national park ... and There are people working on it.

Even if that wasnt the case , one should pause and consider that we don't really know the ramifications of our actions, as I mentioned elsewhere.  

Edited September 7, 2016 by Stosh

[Karl]

Karl, your pov only applies to you, and if you as 1/10 as smart as you think you are you would realize that... as for my witness anyone can take it take it or leave it, for its no biggy here.

 

And your point of view only applies to you, but of course I accept that as part of any argument, it is implicit. What's your point ?

[Karl]

Its not within my purview to do anything about it. For one thing, its a national park ... and There are people working on it.

Even if that wasnt the case , one should pause and consider that we don't really know the ramifications of our actions, as I mentioned elsewhere.

 

Oh heck the Government is involved ? Wave goodbye to the newts.

[Stosh]

Oh heck the Government is involved ? Wave goodbye to the newts.

I really really disagree, as far as our national parks are concerned , I think that reaction isn't deserved ,and if you looked into it , you might find that reaction to be downright .. incorrect. While I dont agree with every decision I hear about, on the whole, its far better than entrusting the newts to the stock market. Ill chalk that comment up to , joking around., but I think its counterproductive to blindly negative about the possibilities of collective govt, since , there is no other real option IMO. 

[Marblehead]

I have to agree with you Stosh.  Our National Parks and Monuments have remained out of the control of Corporate America. 

 

See?  There are some good things about American governments.

 

Well, okay,  At least one good thing.

[Karl]

I really really disagree, as far as our national parks are concerned , I think that reaction isn't deserved ,and if you looked into it , you might find that reaction to be downright .. incorrect. While I dont agree with every decision I hear about, on the whole, its far better than entrusting the newts to the stock market. Ill chalk that comment up to , joking around., but I think its counterproductive to blindly negative about the possibilities of collective govt, since , there is no other real option IMO.

 

You need to do some research on the mess the state has made of national parks in recent history. Yellowstone is a good example. What's more, the moment the Government is denied its increased spending budget, guess what gets closed down first ? Hint, it isn't the tax office or Airforce one.

 

There are numerous examples of private parks which were eventually procured by the state due to public pressure that have since been ruined because of the well understood 'tragedy of the commons'. In simple terms, you wouldn't drive a private car like you would a rental. Private property rights and ownership make it far more likely that an area would be far more succesfully managed than under state control. You don't see Disneyland locking its gates because it doesn't get its way in congress.

 

Of course there is an option. Delimit the government to objective upholding of laws to protect the rights of the people. The Government shouldn't be involved in anything else. That was your constitution Stosh. This isn't something new.

 

The state is no better at looking after national parks than it is of looking after the economy. It's role is to be the monopolist of aggressive force and violence. Why would anyone think it had some special knowledge, or a better way with anything. Would you invite the state into your home to sort out your interior decoration, or mend your broken ironing board ? Anyone who has had spent even a tiny proportion of their time trying to negotiate with state bureaucrats will realise the utter futility, incomprehensible stupidly and inflexibility that faces them. Fuck the state.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Karl

[Shad282]

We are the content and activity of our minds, the mind is the ego. Spirit could be regarded as the soul, it is an axiomatic fact and indivisible. We are alive and conscious of existence that much is known, but we cannot know how, spirit is therefore the nature of man as a volitional creature with his mind as the only tool for his survival.

 

To say the mind is separate from ego is the ego trying to seperate mind from ego. No such thing is possible. To introduce spirit as yet another mechanism of cognition is doubly confusing. We are our minds, our minds are our ego. There are no other minds/spirits looking at mind. There is mind looking a mind and only that - called introspection.

 

We can change our minds, that is to say to alter the content by redefining our philosophies in light of new experiences, or in relation to our success/happiness in life. Often our minds just don't do much thinking, we just swallow preconceived, pre packaged philosophies in a piece meal sense and regurgitate them when making choices. Few think enough to examine if those philosophies will support making the best decision, it's more like an automatic action.

 

Think of all those phrases we adopt "money is the root of all evil" contrasting with "a fair days pay for a fair days work" or "too many cooks spoil the broth" contrasting with "many hands make light work". We say "it's fine in theory, but not in practice" or "that maybe true for you but not for me", that "no one can help what they do". The list of appropriated philosophy is what determines our thoughts and actions, but few examine the philosophies at all, they have become integrated into a great mass of conflicting, contradictions and floating abstractions devoid of definitions related to concrete reality. It's no wonder it is described as 'being asleep'. It is no asleep, but a refusal to think that is the problem.

 

Well... Even tho it is far from the main subject.  i would like to point.. that i have been practicing introspection for a long time. The buddha spoke about introspection and taught it all his life, by observing the breath and then going into the body and making some unconscious activities of the mind conscious and thus creating a door into the subconscious mind to heal the pains and emotions in stuck there.

but later on in his life, after developing his introspection a lot, he went out of body and met deities/angels, and seen his other life and etc of such things described by him and by his followers..(knowing same happened with others introspection practitioners) and these actually provide a little confirmation about the existence of the soul/spirit that is manifested like a physical form we see, unless u consider them hallucinations or you another explanation, mind powers maybe ?

[dawei]

what do you think, is it an escapism? and how to actually deal with these thoughts without escaping them?

 

searching... escaping... seeking...  thoughts...

 

You need a hug

 

Then, afterwards, you need to deal with these thoughts.... without escaping them... 

[Stosh]

See! Though it looks like our gov is a total clusterbang .. its inability to function, hinders what might be detrimental as well as that which one imagines might be good. Its what our founding fathers designed into the system Just like the basis for capitalism is self centered greed. To harness these elements of human predisposition , is pretty slick. Be happy and dwell on all that "lemonade". Negativity with no resolution possible,, one wisely minimizes ,IMo. So I dont want to screw the gov. or rail against it. This could only serve to make our representatives angry and jaded and less willing to persevere for the common good, if anything.

According to your values as expressed, maybe exaggerated, the newts , the struggling cultures, and in fact ,everyone who swims against popular culture , should all be sacrificed for some advantage of uniformity. I just dont share that as a value. I like that folks can call their own shots,and that there is some collective control in some regards. as well.

[Karl]

Well... Even tho it is far from the main subject.  i would like to point.. that i have been practicing introspection for a long time. The buddha spoke about introspection and taught it all his life, by observing the breath and then going into the body and making some unconscious activities of the mind conscious and thus creating a door into the subconscious mind to heal the pains and emotions in stuck there.

but later on in his life, after developing his introspection a lot, he went out of body and met deities/angels, and seen his other life and etc of such things described by him and by his followers..(knowing same happened with others introspection practitioners) and these actually provide a little confirmation about the existence of the soul/spirit that is manifested like a physical form we see, unless u consider them hallucinations or you another explanation, mind powers maybe ?

Introspection is the beginning of the application of reason, until we get under the hood we can't begin to do anything to fix the problem. The things we endured in the past are memories, but these 'hurts' are the result of our philosophical understanding at the time we developed the emotion.

 

I must return to the three questions to illustrate: where am I ? How do I know it ? What should I do ?

 

These questions explain each position along the road our life takes. When our philosophy is immature at an early age we don't understand some of the things that we experience. A child told that his Father has died in an accident has a propensity to try and find some internal blame for the tragedy. You see here that it is our philosophy that needs to be straight, or we will find ourselves taking on board, or reacting to events in ways that impart suffering and then this suffering becomes part of the philosophy.

 

Our philosophy is an interactive program, it is not like a locked computer program. As we take decisions and react to things we are adding to the philosophy in real time. We are being shaped by our actions and reactions like a pebble in a stream. It is not only the pebble that is worn away, it also changes the flow of the river itself.

 

So, Buddah had a philosophy, just as we all do. His philosophy led him to actions, those actions fed into the philosophy. We must conclude that no one makes us, we entirely make ourselves. Of course this is not the case with a damaged mind either physically, or through severe mental/physical trauma which results in irreparable damage to the cognition.

 

If Buddah said he saw and experienced certain things, then it is true for him that he did, it is additionally true that we accept that this is what he believes he experienced. However, whatever he experienced has no bearing on our own lives. We are not Buddah, we should not seek to emulate him.

 

If we have introspection we can rewire our internal philosophy (which is our program of living ). It's not a matter of erasing hurts and emotional pain, but to put these experiences into the correct context. The child who's father died in the accident can then see that no blame can be taken- that he would be dishonestly gaining a negative value of guilt by shouldering that belief. As soon as that context is restored then the effect is not just on that one area of history, but across the entire history and now, as a result our actions in the present and future reflect that altered philosophy and the areas of misappropriated sadness, guilt, hurt no longer weigh upon us either in the past or future. We can feel sad and melancholy, we can remember the experiences, but they no longer form part of our future in the sense they once did.

 

Isn't it true we just want to feel happy, to have confidence in ourselves and pride in our actions ? Isn't that inner strength and light exactly what we need to create, to love and to feel love without any sense of guilt ? That we don't need to be hedonistic and search for pleasure- which should be the result of gaining honest value and not an end in itself. When we feel good about ourselves we can be open and loving, creative and productive, we no longer fear our shadow and act with direct knowledge. That is the full flowering of the ego,that a man becomes his birth right. That's the best we can be and then we can accept failure, we stop carrying baggage and the light of our inner self confidence and wisdom carries us forward.