Karlonomics and Opportunity costs

[ralis]

Putting aside the assessment on class, you correctly identify the effect but are ignorant of the cause, or you deny the cause because it doesn't suit your political agenda for socialism. The old Marxian 'class' argument has floundered and collapsed due to the success of the industrial revolution. We already have all these massive government welfare schemes and wealth distribution, we have unions, minimum wage laws and any company can set itself up as a workers cooperative if it wishes. Yet, yet, still the middle class has been hollowed out and as the welfare schemes, government growth and taxation has increased, the destruction of the middle classes has accelerated. The damage to ethnic and low skilled is to relegate them to lives of broken families, drug use and no opportunity for employment except the criminal kind- is it any wonder the morgues and prisons are full of young black men ?

 

Calling me ignorant is very offensive and I will not tolerate that whatsoever! Further, I don't care how you justify the use of that term!

[Brian]

We are not in school here and you certainly are not the teacher. I suppose that the economic problems facing this country are not affecting you?

Oh, absolutely! The government has managed to stretch this "recovery" out for years and has set the stage for the next crash in a few months. That's not the official story, mind you -- the official story is that things are better now than they have ever been, in this the best of all possible worlds. No need to try to make things great but perhaps just a little more fundamental transformation.

[ralis]

Oh, absolutely! The government has managed to stretch this "recovery" out for years and has set the stage for the next crash in a few months. That's not the official story, mind you -- the official story is that things are better now than they have ever been, in this the best of all possible worlds. No need to try to make things great but perhaps just a little more fundamental transformation.

 

I agree that the economy has not recovered in the way many are lead to believe. Wall Street, Multinational Corporations and government involvement are all to blame. It is not entirely the governments fault which is used as a generalized excuse to point fingers.

[joeblast]

His assessment is correct. The middle class is being stripped of jobs and opportunity whereby the wealth is in the hands of a few.

Globalist fascism.

 

But this all has roots in the takeover of the monetary system, which necessarily induces more inequality than there otherwise would be in a system.

 

So its silly to speak of capitalism, without discussing the roots of what happened to the capital that fk'd up capitalism.

 

We have a problem where the capital has become undermined (chicken and egg, whether the capital perverted the capitol, or vice versa, probably just depends on which instance one is questioning) to the point where the wizard is madly pulling levers to try and retain control - but has an army outside of his lever-room.

 

Not just an army of military might, but of banking might, regulatory might, supra-national-above-countries might, media propaganda might, corporate might...

 

Because even Sauron knew he'd need armies to achieve his goal.

 

Sound money needs to be restored.  A gold standard needs to be restored.  Glass-Steagal et al needs to be restored.

 

I know, I know, a gold std would be a tough one, simply because that would force folks to "MARK IT A ZERO, DUDE" and the populace looks a bit like smokey there.

[ralis]

Globalist fascism.

 

But this all has roots in the takeover of the monetary system, which necessarily induces more inequality than there otherwise would be in a system.

 

So its silly to speak of capitalism, without discussing the roots of what happened to the capital that fk'd up capitalism.

 

We have a problem where the capital has become undermined (chicken and egg, whether the capital perverted the capitol, or vice versa, probably just depends on which instance one is questioning) to the point where the wizard is madly pulling levers to try and retain control - but has an army outside of his lever-room.

 

Not just an army of military might, but of banking might, regulatory might, supra-national-above-countries might, media propaganda might, corporate might...

 

Because even Sauron knew he'd need armies to achieve his goal.

 

Sound money needs to be restored.  A gold standard needs to be restored.  Glass-Steagal et al needs to be restored.

 

I know, I know, a gold std would be a tough one, simply because that would force folks to "MARK IT A ZERO, DUDE" and the populace looks a bit like smokey there.

 

I agree. I might  add that the banksters on Wall Street after the 2008 crash have been given the privilege of borrowing from the Federal Reserve discount window at rates approaching '0' percent interest. That money was supposed to be loaned to communities and business's to aid in recovery. Where did the money go? Right back into playing the Wall Street casino with 'naked short selling'.

[joeblast]

yep, that's because the gig was up in 2008 and unless the CBs bought the losses, then they were going to have problems.

 

of course "bought" means "create the money to loan us to buy them"

[ralis]

yep, that's because the gig was up in 2008 and unless the CBs bought the losses, then they were going to have problems.

 

of course "bought" means "create the money to loan us to buy them"

 

The Fed supposedly buys back all the toxic assets on the books of the banks and with a little accounting maneuver termed as 'write down' the toxic assets disappear. What happens to these properties? The banks resell them and play the game all over again. 

[blackstar212]

You see this as an example of "class hierarchy"?

 

I'm curious -- tell me more about this terrible system and about how you envision the optimal system would be structured.

I will have to address this tomorrow.

[Karl]

Your narrative is nothing but BS and does not apply regarding your warped conspiracy that it is all the governments fault. You don't live here and know nothing about the USA. I live it everyday and am not some person sitting in a dark corner of their bedroom typing away each and everyday out of boredom with nothing better to do.

 

So who and what has caused the deterioration in the available jobs, the stagnation of wages, falling living standards, falling productivity and the rise in Government/corporate debt ?

 

I keep hoping, like some enthusiastic puppy, that you are actually serious about these issues, but all you do is blame corporations for going abroad. The country doesn't own the corporations, no one has any right to the wealth created by those corporations. If they hadn't moved, if they had somehow been forced to stay then they would have shut down, much as has happened in the rust belt.

 

I know lots about your country. I happen to think it's still the last beacon of real freedom, but it is dying very quickly. I have a lot of time for the USA, my father was head of an American company in the UK and visited the country many times. As youngsters we were awe struck by the USA, its products, it's buildings, the technology, music, space program and the sheer wealth of its people compared to our own, heck, even the stamps I collected were impressive. We are united by culture, much philosophy and the English language. I had always hoped for more, but it's been going backwards since the 60s and looks far more like it is moving towards that grim kind of socialism that dogged the UK since the war.

[Karl]

Calling me ignorant is very offensive and I will not tolerate that whatsoever! Further, I don't care how you justify the use of that term!

Ignorant of......not per se any attempt at insulting you. If I wanted to insult you I certainly wouldn't have done so in that way. No doubt that's why you put a rider on your reply.

 

I understand you having an agenda, but what if you are wrong. I'm assuming you want greater wealth, freedom and opportunity for the ordinary guy ? Maybe you don't ?

[joeblast]

So who and what has caused the deterioration in the available jobs, the stagnation of wages, falling living standards, falling productivity and the rise in Government/corporate debt ?

 

I keep hoping, like some enthusiastic puppy, that you are actually serious about these issues, but all you do is blame corporations for going abroad. The country doesn't own the corporations, no one has any right to the wealth created by those corporations. If they hadn't moved, if they had somehow been forced to stay then they would have shut down, much as has happened in the rust belt.

debasement of currency leading to fractional reserve banking leading to ~no reserve banking and 0% interest for those at the money spigot.

 

corporations are not borrowing money to buy back their own shares to goose p/e ratio for nothing

[Karl]

I agree that the economy has not recovered in the way many are lead to believe. Wall Street, Multinational Corporations and government involvement are all to blame. It is not entirely the governments fault which is used as a generalized excuse to point fingers.

Who has allowed those corporations and Wall Street to act in this way ? Who has protected the creditors from risk and who set up the policy of home ownership for ever less reliable lenders. Fanny and Freddy are state backed lenders, even the ratings agencies are state run institutions with a modicum of supposed independence, the regulators are Government regulators, the Fed is a quasi private institution but really part of the Government.

 

Who allowed state backed lending to students and who created the abomination of Obamacare which is creating health black holes as insurance companies terminate their involvement.

 

None of this could have happened without Government creating policies and passing laws. As long as the corporations and banks can monopolise the political system, they will monopolise the political system. The best way to stop crime is not to regulate the criminals, but to prevent the criminals performing the crimes. Seperate state from market and there cannot be any more collusion.

[Stosh]

I don't think you are getting this. This isn't anything to do with judgement, wisdom, knowledge, vision, predictions. I'm simply saying that if you choose to be doing one thing then by deduction you cannot be doing another thing. Look up 'opportunity cost'.

 

I'm happy to discuss judgement but that's another subject entirely. For the moment all I'm saying is that meditating means we can't also be out earning money, painting our toe nails or shaving the cat.

Oh, its about having a cake and eating it , right? Ok , nevermind. Thanks for the correction. 

[ralis]

So who and what has caused the deterioration in the available jobs, the stagnation of wages, falling living standards, falling productivity and the rise in Government/corporate debt ?

 

I keep hoping, like some enthusiastic puppy, that you are actually serious about these issues, but all you do is blame corporations for going abroad. The country doesn't own the corporations, no one has any right to the wealth created by those corporations. If they hadn't moved, if they had somehow been forced to stay then they would have shut down, much as has happened in the rust belt.

 

I know lots about your country. I happen to think it's still the last beacon of real freedom, but it is dying very quickly. I have a lot of time for the USA, my father was head of an American company in the UK and visited the country many times. As youngsters we were awe struck by the USA, its products, it's buildings, the technology, music, space program and the sheer wealth of its people compared to our own, heck, even the stamps I collected were impressive. We are united by culture, much philosophy and the English language. I had always hoped for more, but it's been going backwards since the 60s and looks far more like it is moving towards that grim kind of socialism that dogged the UK since the war.

 

Actually you don't know much about the situation here. I have my feet on the ground with direct experience of the problems here and you don't.

[Karl]

debasement of currency leading to fractional reserve banking leading to ~no reserve banking and 0% interest for those at the money spigot.

 

corporations are not borrowing money to buy back their own shares to goose p/e ratio for nothing

I'm not sure if you are disagreeing with me or not :-)

 

The state created paper money by 'fiat' and effectively banned competing currencies. No bank could have done that on its own. It effectively allowed banks to control the currency with no virtually limits on monetary expansion through the fractional reserve system that allowed banks to print money regardless of their being any asset to back it. The state allowed that to happen, it made lawful a counterfeiting operation. Then in an act of wilful criminality and destruction, Nixon got rid of the nominal gold standard and pegged the paper notes, not to an asset, but to itself. The state created taxpayer backed loans, it guaranteed banks and customers a bail out and took all the risk away from the banking sector.

 

As you said in your reply the state has allowed the monetisation of bank risk and bad debts. It's monetisation corporate debt. The Government will always do this as long as the can. It allows the Government to lend huge amounts of money for its vote grabbing scams and revolving door government cronyism.

 

Until this link is broken there is no chance of ever preventing this happening.

[Karl]

Oh, its about having a cake and eating it , right? Ok , nevermind. Thanks for the correction.

 

Yes you got it dude :happy clapping hands: :-)

[Karl]

Actually you don't know much about the situation here. I have my feet on the ground with direct experience of the problems here and you don't.

What experience do you think you have that I don't ? You live in one small area of a massive country and receive your information in the same way as we all do. Economics and politics are universal. The laws of economics don't change from country to country. One of the poorest arguments in logic is the ad hominem (circumstantial). That you are too old, young, not in the country, out of touch with modern, not a woman etc etc. I'm sure you realise that this is a logical fallacy and not an argument.

[ralis]

What experience do you think you have that I don't ? You live in one small area of a massive country and receive your information in the same way as we all do. Economics and politics are universal. The laws of economics don't change from country to country. One of the poorest arguments in logic is the ad hominem (circumstantial). That you are too old, young, not in the country, out of touch with modern, not a woman etc etc. I'm sure you realise that this is a logical fallacy and not an argument.

 

Stop resorting to the ad hominem defense which is not apropos in the least. I don't live in the UK and will not comment on your country. Stop with mine.

[Brian]

...Wall Street, Multinational Corporations and government involvement...

Oh! You mean corporatism. Yeah, used to be a big problem -- I mean, Bush I and Slick Willy and Li'l Bush, they were definitely corporatists -- but the current Administration nipped that in the bud. Hillary's tough talk about cracking down on Wall Street (ignore the secret speeches and huge contributions) proves she's not one of them and Trump only played the payola game to get into a position to end it for good, right? We all win either way this race turns out!

 

​

[Karl]

Stop resorting to the ad hominem defense which is not apropos in the least. I don't live in the UK and will not comment on your country. Stop with mine.

In a word. No. ;-)

[thelerner]

Not even reading the last page or two but focusing on the OP and title. 

 

Shit happens.  One should always do one's best.  Work hard, look for opportunities, but shit absolutely happens and sometimes you don't have bootstraps to pull yourself up with.  Life and one's situation can be overwhelming.  For many in poverty, there are plenty of road blocks and no easy solutions.  

 

A little humility helps, a bit of- 'There but for the grace of God, go I', stuff.  Because even icons of self sufficiency like Ayn Rand end up getting public assistance when medical bills overwhelm them.  And such could happen to us.  So, humility ends up keeping us from hypocrisy and makes us better human beings.  Better able to take the shit and ask for help, when it happens to us. 

Edited September 7, 2016 by thelerner

[joeblast]

I'm not sure if you are disagreeing with me or not :-)

 

The state created paper money by 'fiat' and effectively banned competing currencies. No bank could have done that on its own. It effectively allowed banks to control the currency with no virtually limits on monetary expansion through the fractional reserve system that allowed banks to print money regardless of their being any asset to back it. The state allowed that to happen, it made lawful a counterfeiting operation. Then in an act of wilful criminality and destruction, Nixon got rid of the nominal gold standard and pegged the paper notes, not to an asset, but to itself. The state created taxpayer backed loans, it guaranteed banks and customers a bail out and took all the risk away from the banking sector.

 

As you said in your reply the state has allowed the monetisation of bank risk and bad debts. It's monetisation corporate debt. The Government will always do this as long as the can. It allows the Government to lend huge amounts of money for its vote grabbing scams and revolving door government cronyism.

 

Until this link is broken there is no chance of ever preventing this happening.

I recall a response to one of dr yang's qin na videos from some noob that went something like "who the hell is just going to let you jointlock them like this?!"

 

yes yes, it requires maneuvering, a long campaign of subversion to make the things happen that have happened.  the banks outmaneuvered the king of england in the 1620s, and they outmaneuvered the us gov in 1913 - I dont know if we're getting out of this joint lock without a broken something or other...

[Karl]

Not even reading the last page or two but focusing on the OP and title. 

 

Shit happens.  One should always do one's best.  Work hard, look for opportunities, but shit absolutely happens and sometimes you don't have bootstraps to pull yourself up with.  Life and one's situation can be overwhelming.  For many in poverty, there are plenty of road blocks and no easy solutions.  

 

A little humility helps, a bit of- 'There but for the grace of God, go I', stuff.  Because even icons of self sufficiency like Ayn Rand end up getting public assistance when medical bills overwhelm them.  And such could happen to us.  So, humility ends up keeping us from hypocrisy and makes us better human beings.  Better able to take the shit and ask for help, when it happens to us.

 

Err no, that's a myth by the way.

 

Firstly Rand was explicit that we should ensure we grab everything the state promises to give us, because we are simply taking back what is ours. This was explained in Atlas Shrugged as portrayed by the pirate that took the gold being sent abroad by the state and returning it to the rightful owners. We are stuck with the state and its coercive theft of our production, just like any kind of prison of war camp we should work to gain freedom at a cost to the camp commandants.

 

Secondly Rand did not suggest that we can all be successfully self sufficient, only that we should make the best use of our minds through good reasoning to obtain the values we desire and thereby pursue happiness. She readily accepted that some will fail regardless and also that some are simply incapable of self sufficiency. However, she was opposed to state welfare in all its forms due to its inherent immorality and made voluntary giving through charity effort the means of coping with short term failure or longer term incapacity.

 

Thirdly Rand did not take any welfare from the state despite having no objections to doing so. She was succesful throughout her career and left a small fortune, plus the income from the continued sales of her work to the ARI institute. The myth comes about because it is rumoured that Rand's lawyer, acting for Rand after she became too ill to act for herself, allegedly used welfare to cover the costs of her final days. This has never actually been substantiated, so, if you have some pertinent information that sheds additional light on this myth then please add it to the pile. As of now you are simply spreading rumour which may well be a complete fabrication.

 

We don't need humility, we need to get on with life and if we fall we had better be prepared to accept that we might need to find a charity to help us. In today's world the 'humility' of failure is not evident, people expect hand outs as a given right and they arrive through the post like a pay day cheque. Real humility would be falling on the voluntary mercy of others and not expecting the state to steal from others and give us money as a right.

[Brian]

Err no, that's a myth by the way.

 

Firstly Rand was explicit that we should ensure we grab everything the state promises to give us, because we are simply taking back what is ours. This was explained in Atlas Shrugged as portrayed by the pirate that took the gold being sent abroad by the state and returning it to the rightful owners. We are stuck with the state and its coercive theft of our production, just like any kind of prison of war camp we should work to gain freedom at a cost to the camp commandants.

 

Secondly Rand did not suggest that we can all be successfully self sufficient, only that we should make the best use of our minds through good reasoning to obtain the values we desire and thereby pursue happiness. She readily accepted that some will fail regardless and also that some are simply incapable of self sufficiency. However, she was opposed to state welfare in all its forms due to its inherent immorality and made voluntary giving through charity effort the means of coping with short term failure or longer term incapacity.

 

Thirdly Rand did not take any welfare from the state despite having no objections to doing so. She was succesful throughout her career and left a small fortune, plus the income from the continued sales of her work to the ARI institute. The myth comes about because it is rumoured that Rand's lawyer, acting for Rand after she became too ill to act for herself, allegedly used welfare to cover the costs of her final days. This has never actually been substantiated, so, if you have some pertinent information that sheds additional light on this myth then please add it to the pile. As of now you are simply spreading rumour which may well be a complete fabrication.

 

We don't need humility, we need to get on with life and if we fall we had better be prepared to accept that we might need to find a charity to help us. In today's world the 'humility' of failure is not evident, people expect hand outs as a given right and they arrive through the post like a pay day cheque. Real humility would be falling on the voluntary mercy of others and not expecting the state to steal from others and give us money as a right.

Yes, we have allowed the concept of humility to be transformed into an acknowledgement of the state's supremacy and charity into entitlement to the energy of others, handed out by the state.

[blackstar212]

You see this as an example of "class hierarchy"?

 

I'm curious -- tell me more about this terrible system and about how you envision the optimal system would be structured.

Approach all things with compassion, humility and moderation. With that said you only need to look at the poorest of people to see if a countries economic program is a success. When people are better off going to prison than to live in the streets it is a terrible system.

 

Karl is correct about the government in a sense. The corporations now have the politicians in their back pockets and that is how we have now managed to become a plutocracy. I would model after Canada or Denmark perhaps Sweden. That is not optimal but far better in line with compassion, humility and moderation than the USA.