Energy transmission and sharing - a debate

[rene]

Just to clarify...what you want to know is whether people do energy work/cultivation, work that might be their own personal practice and not discussed on the board?

 

Or, do you want to know if people engage in intentional energetic interaction with members here, ie giving or receiving healings, transmissions, sharing presence, astral sex...etc?

Both. Do they do energy work at all, anywhere. (-:

[rene]

Done.

Yay! Thanks!!

 

Now I'll go find it (-:

[dwai]

I was thinking further about this last night - if energy is energy, why does daoism bother with distinguishing jing/qi/shen and 'false fire' (I can't remember the chinese word), daoism considers there to be a difference in refinement of these energies. Hypothetically projecting jing versus projecting shen would not be considered merely an issue of quantity but of quality surely. I believe a distinction should also be made between crown chakra energy coming down and root chakra energy rising up.

 

The appropriate energy will bring a spotlight to bear on traumas and blockages true, but really people should be shown how to effect these energies within themselves, they needn't be intoduced into someone's body by a teacher, this reminds me of spoon feeding and creates dependancy not maturity. When self-effected, the energy is always the appropriate energy in appropriate amounts, building upon itself.

 

 

By saying Energy is Energy, it doesn't mean that it can't exist in different vibrational frequencies. Jing is a lower vibration form of energy, Qi higher and Shen even higher. In that sense, Jing is more gross and Shen more refined. If you project jing, you are literally draining yourself, so no one *should project* jing. Shen is more likely to be projectable.

 

The norm is that we want to replace the 'heavy' stuff with the 'light' stuff (energy-wise). Yet, we must not force it, but let is fill up naturally. More we learn to empty out, more the good stuff comes in. But that doesn't mean "heavy" is bad and "light" is good (as in good vs evil). It however is, that light is better for us than heavy. But is it always the case? Maybe not...

 

 

Depending on their level, some are unable to apply energies onto themselves effectively. For instance, I can heal others and myself to a certain degree, yet I can heal others much better than I can myself. Why? I don't know...I do know I have a long way to go before I can help others remotely.

 

My teacher says that he freely shares his energy with people, and that the more he shares, the more the Dao replenishes him. He blesses and prays for anyone who asks for his help (and all his students always). And he is one of the most spiritually (and martially) powerful people I have ever met. 

[liminal_luke]

We´re all in such different places around the question of energy work between people here, and I think it´s helpful just to chill out and let other people do their thing.

 

Some thoughts... 

 

Bums who do energy work in chat are neither more nor less spiritually evolved than Bums who choose not to.  

 

Bums that try energy work in chat and find that it´s negative for them are neither more nor less spiritually evolved than Bums who try it and have a positive experience.

 

If a Bum has a negative experience during an energy exchange, that does not necessarily mean that there´s anything wrong with the Bum on the other side of the exchange.   

[Jeff]

...

 

Depending on their level, some are unable to apply energies onto themselves effectively. For instance, I can heal others and myself to a certain degree, yet I can heal others much better than I can myself. Why? I don't know...I do know I have a long way to go before I can help others remotely.

 

My teacher says that he freely shares his energy with people, and that the more he shares, the more the Dao replenishes him. He blesses and prays for anyone who asks for his help (and all his students always). And he is one of the most spiritually (and martially) powerful people I have ever met.

 

Sounds like a very wise and wonderful teacher. Thank you for sharing.

[Taomeow]

I was thinking further about this last night - if energy is energy, why does daoism bother with distinguishing jing/qi/shen and 'false fire' (I can't remember the chinese word), daoism considers there to be a difference in refinement of these energies. Hypothetically projecting jing versus projecting shen would not be considered merely an issue of quantity but of quality surely. I believe a distinction should also be made between crown chakra energy coming down and root chakra energy rising up.

 

 

 

 

Taoists make a very clear distinction between various types of qi -- e.g. shen qi' and sha' qi, "beneficial qi" and "killer qi," respectively.  Whether energy can or cannot be good or bad is irrelevant, because qi is not energy, contrary to popular belief.  (Also, chakras are not part of the taoist system.  We have dantiens and they function not at all like that.)

 

Sha' qi, "killer qi," is an outcome of many possible scenarios -- energy used in a particular way and imbued with particular meaning (e.g., when yi, intent, directs qi toward an outcome that depends on the nature of the intent; when zhi, the will of destiny, guides yi -- of which the person may be unaware; and so on); or space configuration which might "cut" or "entangle" "good" qi resulting in "bad" -- think a room where you might put so many items of furniture that none of them can function -- they are not bad by themselves, but the way they are thrown together, forcing out free space and entangling all passages, turns the whole arrangement into a -- well, even a death trap in a particular configuration.  And so on. 

[Bindi]

Taoists make a very clear distinction between various types of qi -- e.g. shen qi' and sha' qi, "beneficial qi" and "killer qi," respectively.  Whether energy can or cannot be good or bad is irrelevant, because qi is not energy, contrary to popular belief.  (Also, chakras are not part of the taoist system.  We have dantiens and they function not at all like that.)

 

Sha' qi, "killer qi," is an outcome of many possible scenarios -- energy used in a particular way and imbued with particular meaning (e.g., when yi, intent, directs qi toward an outcome that depends on the nature of the intent; when zhi, the will of destiny, guides yi -- of which the person may be unaware; and so on); or space configuration which might "cut" or "entangle" "good" qi resulting in "bad" -- think a room where you might put so many items of furniture that none of them can function -- they are not bad by themselves, but the way they are thrown together, forcing out free space and entangling all passages, turns the whole arrangement into a -- well, even a death trap in a particular configuration.  And so on.

Re crown and root chakra perhaps the daoist version might be heaven energies coming down through the soft spot on top of the head and earth energies rising up from somewhere near the perineum?

 

I do fully appreciate that dantians are not equivalent to chakras.

 

And thankyou, I will explore some of the terms and concepts you introduce in your post, I'm not at all familiar with them.

[Taomeow]

Perhaps this is for a different thread.  I just wanted to point out that "energy is energy" which is an idea surfacing here and there throughout the thread, and "it all depends on the receiver" is not a taoist view of the impact of all kinds of qi.  We look at the overall context, it is all-important.  Far as I'm concerned, what is meant as a healing is an assault if the context is "I didn't give permission."  And a severe push is healing in the context, e.g., of a teacher showing a student (who gave explicit prior consent!!) how to deflect a particular qi attack we call fajin.  I had to fly a couple of times today from such pushes, and I got a bruise, and I got the technique.  It made me very happy. 

 

Invitation, consent, rules of engagement --

are everything IMO.  I was just trying to address your doubts that these are among taoist values.  They most definitely are. 

Edited September 13, 2016 by Taomeow

[Jetsun]

It's not only about frequency,unless you are getting it from its source energy is likely to be conditioned, either by our own mind or the karmic human consciousness of others from the past, so it is unlikely that much of the energy being transmitted is pure. It will probably contain information or memory of some kind.

[Bindi]

By saying Energy is Energy, it doesn't mean that it can't exist in different vibrational frequencies. Jing is a lower vibration form of energy, Qi higher and Shen even higher. In that sense, Jing is more gross and Shen more refined. If you project jing, you are literally draining yourself, so no one *should project* jing. Shen is more likely to be projectable.

 

The norm is that we want to replace the 'heavy' stuff with the 'light' stuff (energy-wise). Yet, we must not force it, but let is fill up naturally. More we learn to empty out, more the good stuff comes in. But that doesn't mean "heavy" is bad and "light" is good (as in good vs evil). It however is, that light is better for us than heavy. But is it always the case? Maybe not...

 

 

Depending on their level, some are unable to apply energies onto themselves effectively. For instance, I can heal others and myself to a certain degree, yet I can heal others much better than I can myself. Why? I don't know...I do know I have a long way to go before I can help others remotely.

 

My teacher says that he freely shares his energy with people, and that the more he shares, the more the Dao replenishes him. He blesses and prays for anyone who asks for his help (and all his students always). And he is one of the most spiritually (and martially) powerful people I have ever met. 

 

There is also shaktipat, the transmission of kundalini energy, another vibrational frequency again. Would the receiver of any of these energies, jing, qi, shen, kundalini, not notice any difference when these various energies are transmitted to them? 

[dawei]

Perhaps this is for a different thread.  I just wanted to point out that "energy is energy" which is an idea surfacing here and there throughout the thread, and "it all depends on the receiver" is not a taoist view of the impact of all kinds of qi.  We look at the overall context, it is all-important.  Far as I'm concerned, what is meant as a healing is an assault if the context is "I didn't give permission."  And a severe push is healing in the context, e.g., of a teacher showing a student (who gave explicit prior consent!!) how to deflect a particular qi attack we call fajin.  I had to fly a couple of times today from such pushes, and I got a bruise, and I got the technique.  It made me very happy. 

 

Invitation, consent, rules of engagement --

are everything IMO.  I was just trying to address your doubts that these are among taoist values.  They most definitely are. 

 

I think this is nicely put and the three (bolded) seem less the issue and a final fourth, 'outcome experienced' (including days later or in dreams) is what I have heard as complaints.   In this sense, if you sense something that is your experience and it doesn't mean you necessary 'received' anything; you could  of been the one transmitting...

 

I think part of the problem is, the concept of 'transmission' is over used as much as "it depends on the receiver".   Transmission is only half the loop and there is Reception.   What I think is missed is at least two issues:

1. In a loop, it may not be clear who is transmitting vs receiving to what degrees...   Most of the uses of "transmission" I keep reading are not anything about how I have practiced most of my life, except when directly doing Medical Qigong... but even then, there is intention receiving in a sense to purge Qi.

2. If one views it more as energy sharing and exchange, then one will be cognizant that there are always two sides interacting... but doesn't imply another is transmitting to you cuz they initiate something.   

 

I get the sense that folks feel if they 'sense' something, then it was transmitted to them.   That is actually incorrect in many instances, although there will be instance it is true.

[dwai]

There is also shaktipat, the transmission of kundalini energy, another vibrational frequency again. Would the receiver of any of these energies, jing, qi, shen, kundalini, not notice any difference when these various energies are transmitted to them? 

 

When my teacher energetically opened me up, he initiated the connection through the upper dan tien and opened up the lower dan tien. Is that a kind of Shaktipat? I think so. He told me that he gave me a little bit of his energy to help light the dan tien. Then it is up to me to ensure that i "feed and stoke the flames" with regular practice. My teacher connects using his spiritual mind (heart-mind), so that is Shen imho. My teacher doesn't label...he just teaches with direct transmission.

 

Kundalini imho is a phenomenon and not a different energy. It is said to be activated when prana rises from the mooladhara to the sahasrara via the central channel (or sushumna). 

[dwai]

Perhaps this is for a different thread.  I just wanted to point out that "energy is energy" which is an idea surfacing here and there throughout the thread, and "it all depends on the receiver" is not a taoist view of the impact of all kinds of qi.  We look at the overall context, it is all-important.  Far as I'm concerned, what is meant as a healing is an assault if the context is "I didn't give permission."  And a severe push is healing in the context, e.g., of a teacher showing a student (who gave explicit prior consent!!) how to deflect a particular qi attack we call fajin.  I had to fly a couple of times today from such pushes, and I got a bruise, and I got the technique.  It made me very happy. 

 

Invitation, consent, rules of engagement --

are everything IMO.  I was just trying to address your doubts that these are among taoist values.  They most definitely are. 

 

And yet, fajin can clean the gunk out of our systems. My teacher used to bounce students against the wall from time to time, to clean them up. But there is a clear agreement between a teacher and a student around this. however, he will never try to help anyone if they don't give consent or explicitly ask for his help...

[dawei]

he just teaches with direct transmission.

 

I think this meets the original meaning in the OP... but I don't find that going on at this site by anyone.   Ergo, why I think the concept of transmission is not so directly understand at times.

[Taomeow]

I think this meets the original meaning in the OP... but I don't find that going on at this site by anyone.   Ergo, why I think the concept of transmission is not so directly understand at times.

 

It is very misunderstood quite often.  But so is every other kind of communication, right? 

[Bindi]

When my teacher energetically opened me up, he initiated the connection through the upper dan tien and opened up the lower dan tien. Is that a kind of Shaktipat? I think so. He told me that he gave me a little bit of his energy to help light the dan tien. Then it is up to me to ensure that i "feed and stoke the flames" with regular practice. My teacher connects using his spiritual mind (heart-mind), so that is Shen imho. My teacher doesn't label...he just teaches with direct transmission.

 

Kundalini imho is a phenomenon and not a different energy. It is said to be activated when prana rises from the mooladhara to the sahasrara via the central channel (or sushumna). 

 

 

In terms of energy systems, your post leaves me with more questions than answers, such as are dantians actually pre-existent therefore allowing connections to be made between the UDT and the LDT at the outset, and can a dantian be 'lit' before it has been created and filled. My understanding is that dantians are created and filled one at a time starting from the lower and working towards the upper, so I don't understand your teacher's methods in the first place. 

 

If you see his transmission as a kind of shaktipat, are you saying you perceived it as a kind of kundalini transmission?

[dwai]

In terms of energy systems, your post leaves me with more questions than answers, such as are dantians actually pre-existent therefore allowing connections to be made between the UDT and the LDT at the outset, and can a dantian be 'lit' before it has been created and filled. My understanding is that dantians are created and filled one at a time starting from the lower and working towards the upper, so I don't understand your teacher's methods in the first place.

 

If you see his transmission as a kind of shaktipat, are you saying you perceived it as a kind of kundalini transmission?

Of course the Dan tiens exist. How else does qi circulate in one's meridians?

 

I don't consider kundalini to be an "energy" that is different from qi per se. It is a phenomenon. Shaktipat is basically transfer of shakti (energy/power). It may or may not trigger a kundalini phenomenon...

 

Before being transmitted by my teacher I did taiji for close to 14 years. I felt the Dan tiens, qi and cultivated just fine. However after, everything was far more amplified and in focus. Someone had said that qi, Shen,jing,Jin are "information". When I got the transmission, I recieved information. But not the kind of information that is intellectually comprehensible.

 

Of course I could be totally wrong with the story my intellect has created to try to explain the inexplicable...

Edited September 14, 2016 by dwai

[Bindi]

I was under the impression that ‘Where there is Qi, Dantian is formed; where Qi is absent, it is empty’. It could be that different schools and disciplines have their own definitions and locations of Dantian, which to me is an indication of how little is really known about dantians. One person's understanding may be correct, but that understanding is not across the board. 

 

And I disagree with your equation of kundalini/shaktipat/shakti with qi, for me any energy capable of randomly triggering 'kundalini phenomenon' is an inappropriate energy to be transmitting, I would personally like to reserve the term 'qi transmission' to refer to a subtler or more refined energy transmission that does not affect kundalini - though of course I do recognise that some people are fine with kundalini energy being activated and consider that energy to be a spiritual experience in itself.

[Jetsun]

I always thought Dan Tiens are created, or at least the lower Dan tien is. That is how some schools phrase it anyway

[dwai]

I always thought Dan Tiens are created, or at least the lower Dan tien is. That is how some schools phrase it anyway

In my experience it is a matter of bringing the LDT into "focus". Like taking a light and focusing it into a point like a laser. And of course I'm being reductionist...

[dwai]

I was under the impression that ‘Where there is Qi, Dantian is formed; where Qi is absent, it is empty’. It could be that different schools and disciplines have their own definitions and locations of Dantian, which to me is an indication of how little is really known about dantians. One person's understanding may be correct, but that understanding is not across the board.

 

Without qi the organism cannot be alive. So obviously prior to cultivation there is qi. After cultivation the qi is tuned to progressively higher frequencies. And as it does so, the Dan tiens become more coherent.

 

 

And I disagree with your equation of kundalini/shaktipat/shakti with qi, for me any energy capable of randomly triggering 'kundalini phenomenon' is an inappropriate energy to be transmitting, I would personally like to reserve the term 'qi transmission' to refer to a subtler or more refined energy transmission that does not affect kundalini - though of course I do recognise that some people are fine with kundalini energy being activated and consider that energy to be a spiritual experience in itself.

we are all entitled to our opinions.

[Bindi]

Without qi the organism cannot be alive. So obviously prior to cultivation there is qi. After cultivation the qi is tuned to progressively higher frequencies. And as it does so, the Dan tiens become more coherent.

 

 

we are all entitled to our opinions.

 

Is it without qi or without jing that the organism cannot be alive?

[Apech]

I always thought Dan Tiens are created, or at least the lower Dan tien is. That is how some schools phrase it anyway

 

 

Dan Tien means pill/elixir field.  So technically in Nei Dan terms until the pill is generated there is no actual Dan Tien - but in ordinary usage the area of the subtle body is still called DT.

[dwai]

Is it without qi or without jing that the organism cannot be alive?

 

Jing is the lowest frequency vibration of energy before it becomes matter. Qi is a refinement of Jing. And Shen a refinement of Qi. One cannot live without any one of these three and depleting one will necessarily take its toll on the other.

 

But these (per my understanding) work at different levels. Jing works at the level of biological processes (excretion, procreation, etc). Qi works at the level of energetic processes (how the organs function, whether they are in balance or not). Shen works at the level of spiritual processes (how strong is your heart-mind intent (Yi), how scattered or unscattered is your intellectual mind, etc).

 

The analogy I draw with the hindu system - jing is Ojas, Prana is Qi, Tejas is Shen. There are minor variations and the details of course, but at a high level this analogy seems to fit.

 

But then we get into the Xian-Tian vs Hou-Tian and that's another finer level of detail to consider...

[Bindi]

Jing is the lowest frequency vibration of energy before it becomes matter. Qi is a refinement of Jing. And Shen a refinement of Qi. One cannot live without any one of these three and depleting one will necessarily take its toll on the other.

 

But these (per my understanding) work at different levels. Jing works at the level of biological processes (excretion, procreation, etc). Qi works at the level of energetic processes (how the organs function, whether they are in balance or not). Shen works at the level of spiritual processes (how strong is your heart-mind intent (Yi), how scattered or unscattered is your intellectual mind, etc).

 

The analogy I draw with the hindu system - jing is Ojas, Prana is Qi, Tejas is Shen. There are minor variations and the details of course, but at a high level this analogy seems to fit.

 

But then we get into the Xian-Tian vs Hou-Tian and that's another finer level of detail to consider...

 

If dantians are pre-existent and fully functional at the outset, it makes sense that jing qi and shen are already present in our subtle bodies, but I'm not sure that these refined energies are naturally there apart from jing if the dantians are not already created, I guess one's perspective might rest on this point.  

 

Looking into your analogy briefly, it seems that though prana might well be equated with qi, ojas more resembles original yang, and tejas more resembles original yin.

 

Personally I have found progress through the nadi's from ida and pingala to brahmanadi to be a very good analogy for cultivation of the lower and middle dantians, but progress through the kosha's is also an excellent analogy.