Mair 2:11

[Marblehead]

Gnaw Gap inquired of Princely Scion, "Do you know wherein all things agree?"

"How could I know that?"

"Do you know what you don't know?"

"How could I know that?"

"Well, then, is it possible to know anything at all?"

"How could I know that?  Nonetheless, I'll try to say something about it.  How can we know that what I call knowledge is not really ignorance?  How can we know that what I call ignorance is not really knowledge?  But let me try to ask you a few questions.  If people sleep in damp places, they develop lumbago or even partial paralysis.  But would the same thing happen if a loach {{A small eel, only three to four inches long, that lives in the mud of ponds and lakes.}} did so?  If people dwell in trees, they will tremble with vertigo.  But would the same thing happen if a gibbon {{An arboreal ape with long arms and a slender body.}} did so?  Of these three, which knows the proper place to dwell?  People eat meat, deer eat grass, giant centipedes savor snakes, hawks and crows relish mice.  Of these four, which knows the proper food to eat?  Gibbons go for gibbons, buck mates with doe, loaches cavort with fish.  Mao Ch'iang and Hsi Shih {{Fabled beauties of old.}} were considered by men to be beautiful, but if fish took one look at them they would dive into the depths, if birds saw them they would fly high into the sky, if deer saw them they would run away pell-mell.  Of these four, which knows the correct standard of beauty for all under heaven?  As I see it, the principle of humaneness and righteousness, the paths of right and wrong, are inextricably confused. How would I be able to distinguish among them?"

"If you;" asked Gnaw Gap, "do not know the difference between benefit and harm, does the ultimate man likewise not know the difference between them?"

"The ultimate man is spiritous," said Princely Scion.  "If the great marshes were set on fire, he would not feel hot.  If the rivers turned to ice, he would not feel cold.  If violent thunder split the mountains, he would not be injured.  If whirlwinds lashed the seas, he would not be frightened.  Such being the case, he rides the clouds, mounts the sun and moon, and wanders beyond the four seas.  Since not even life and death have any transforming effect upon him, how much less do benefit and harm?"
 

Edited September 11, 2016 by Marblehead

[Taoist Texts]

Gnaw Gap inquired of Princely Scion, "Do you know wherein all things agree?"

This is a politically charged question 'Do you know the unity with things?'

Things being the governed populace, and to be in unity with it is the harmonious method of governing it, in the contemporaneous political terminology of the Confucians and the Legists. This dialog is a covert polemic with them. 

 

 

 

 

"Well, then, is it possible to know anything at all?"

 

Meaning 'is it possible to govern by being in unity with the populace at all'? The answer is negative.

 

"How could I know that?  Nonetheless, I'll try to say something about it.  How can we know that what I call knowledge is not really ignorance?  How can we know that what I call ignorance is not really knowledge?  But let me try to ask you a few questions.  If people sleep in damp places, they develop lumbago or even partial paralysis.  But would the same thing happen if a loach ..... run away pell-mell.  Of these four, which knows the correct standard of beauty for all under heaven?

 

  This is a silly apples-to-oranges metaphor supporting the impossibility of governance  through understanding what the populace wants, because like the animals above they all want different things.

 

As I see it, the principle of humaneness and righteousness, the paths of right and wrong, are inextricably confused. How would I be able to distinguish among them?"

 

To wit. The king can not possibly know what is right or wrong at any given moment. Instilling  humaneness and righteousness into the people in order to make them docile is no use either.

 

 

"If you;" asked Gnaw Gap, "do not know the difference between benefit and harm, does the ultimate man likewise not know the difference between them?"

 

So what is the poor king to do?

 

"The ultimate man is spiritous," said Princely Scion.  "If the great marshes were set on fire, he would not feel hot.  If the rivers turned to ice, he would not feel cold.  If violent thunder split the mountains, he would not be injured.  If whirlwinds lashed the seas, he would not be frightened.  Such being the case, he rides the clouds, mounts the sun and moon, and wanders beyond the four seas.  Since not even life and death have any transforming effect upon him, how much less do benefit and harm?"

 

ZZ advice is the tired old wu-wei, the non-action. The king shall make like the mythical ultimate man and be aloof, that's all. Zen, man! 

[Marblehead]

Well, I'm happy with the number of readers we are getting in this series.  However, it sure would be nice to see some thoughts of those who are reading.  I already know what's in my mind regarding the section.  I'm willing to learn from y'all

 

Anyhow ...

 

I won't say anything about the last paragraph as it is what I would call "beyond belief".

 

However, the rest of the section speaks to an on-going discussion regarding belief.

 

How do we know what is right?  I am pretty confident about what I think is right for me.  But I can't say what is right for someone else.  Some folks have belief systems that I wouldn't even consider doing research on.  But they have.  It apparently offers them something that they have been unable to find elsewhere.

 

Does a fish know what is best for a bird?  Of course not.  The fish has never been a bird (Well, except for P'eng and K'un).

 

But we can make generalized statements about what is of benefit or harm to most people.  And this doesn't require a lot of knowledge - all we need do is look at our self.  If something is harmful to us it is likely it could be harmful to others as well.

 

Basically, don't judge others according to our self.  Don't judge their belief system according to our belief system.  Judge the individual according to the individual.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

All things agree that what is, is how it is,, otherwise said, they all have to deal with reality despite the whims of their own nature. Tao being impartial, serves as a guide to all, its rules cannot be defied, so a good solid govt should not legislate morality, but provide opportunity and control, thats it.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Stosh