if you believe in it, it will exist or else nothing really exist?

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

Objectively you cannot fly,

but is astral travel possible?

i don't know..

 

 

Of-course it is!!! I thought everyone here astral projected

[rene]

Objective reality: Karl and Brian drag their dance into every thread.

 

Sujective reality: Usually interesting and informative, but it's getting old. Get a room, okay?

 

[Marblehead]

I'm getting old too.

[Karl]

Objective reality: Karl and Brian drag their dance into every thread.

Sujective reality: Usually interesting and informative, but it's getting old. Get a room, okay?

I never tire of it :-) We would get a room if we could decide which one to get. Mines too inflexible for Brian and Brian's choice looks far too flimsy to me.

 

I bet this is how it used to go in Ancient Greece. The audience sitting around going 'oh no it's these two again'.

[Karl]

I'm getting old too.

Subjectively or objectively ?

[cold]

If I don't mind it, it don't matter!

So if a tree fell in the forest ...

I didn't see it, or hear it, so it didn't fall.

Meanwhile the theme song from The Twilight Zone is playing softly.

[Brian]

If I don't mind it, it don't matter!

So if a tree fell in the forest ...

I didn't see it, or hear it, so it didn't fall.

Meanwhile the theme song from The Twilight Zone is playing softly.

What tree???

 

 

 

 

[Shad282]

Well, first, please don't argue between each others with something that is not directly related to the main subject. Thanks
Secondly, i m talking about something deeper and something that demand a little bit of thinking and contemplation of the idea,.

 

Because whatever you say is actually relative to you and to what you actually read and believe in as the truth and that is not the point of the thread. in other words, you have to get out of your own beliefs and doubt them for few minutes and contemplate with an open mind to all the vast possibilities. 

 

I've done this today and thoughts came into my mind, that we might come from a state of emptiness and nothingness, where no reality exist  and at the same time everything exist...

It is a state that many people have experienced similar to it  in their life some faces of it:  lucid dreams or maybe astral projection  where whatever your think of or you experience or it appears in front of you.

 

the world starts with the first main belief, The Body, with limitations, senses and filters. followed by the vast majority of sub-beliefs that are different from one person to another but that cannot go beyond the body limitations. for example: a car is built by certain beliefs (sciences..etc) you cannot increase its speed beyond its limit with taping your hands or just thinking like a car created in a lucid dream.

Other major beliefs like a Spirit: and we start creating sub-beliefs of energy, healing, chakras, heaven, hell, reincarnation ....etc

 

It is like we make different worlds  that are followed by rules, limitation, procedures that creates sub-beliefs. all are real to their believers. a healer can heal himself and maybe others if they believed in healing because it is as real as the world to the scientists.

 

it is like we are worlds creators and we share invites.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Shad282

[Marblehead]

Subjectively or objectively ?

Yes.

[rene]

[Kar3n]

***MODERATION NOTICE***

 

Objective reality: Karl and Brian drag their dance into every thread.

Sujective reality: Usually interesting and informative, but it's getting old. Get a room, okay?

 

 

I never tire of it :-) We would get a room if we could decide which one to get. Mines too inflexible for Brian and Brian's choice looks far too flimsy to me.

I bet this is how it used to go in Ancient Greece. The audience sitting around going 'oh no it's these two again'.

 

These are just two of the posts that were brought to our attention as being off topic.

Please stay on topic to maintain the integrity of the thread.

 

***

[Marblehead]

Well, okay, I was off topic too.  Let's be fair.

 

 

So we are talking about reality.  The existence of stuff.

 

The manifest (Ten Thousand Things) exists equally for everyone.  Water is wet, desert is dry.  But how wet or dry is it for individuals?  That's a matter of opinion, isn't it?

 

So if I say I believe in the Easter Bunny then that makes it real for everyone?  No, I don't think so.

 

If I believe I am being stalked by Milla Jovovich I would suggest that I have a mental problem.

 

Now, I could argue hours upon end that I believe this to be true.  And others could argue that it is just my imagination.

 

Bottom line is evidence.  Is there evidence for what I believe or is it just some mental fascination?  No evidence?  Likely non-existent.  Evidence?  Likely existent however, how it is described by individuals will vary.

 

Just like the tree in the forest.  Three days ago it was upright.  Today it is horizontal to the ground.  Did the tree fall?  Of course it did.  Doesn't matter if anyone heard, saw, of felt it falling.  Or maybe it was cut down.  Evidence.

[Shad282]

Well, okay, I was off topic too.  Let's be fair.

 

 

So we are talking about reality.  The existence of stuff.

 

The manifest (Ten Thousand Things) exists equally for everyone.  Water is wet, desert is dry.  But how wet or dry is it for individuals?  That's a matter of opinion, isn't it?

 

So if I say I believe in the Easter Bunny then that makes it real for everyone?  No, I don't think so.

 

If I believe I am being stalked by Milla Jovovich I would suggest that I have a mental problem.

 

Now, I could argue hours upon end that I believe this to be true.  And others could argue that it is just my imagination.

 

Bottom line is evidence.  Is there evidence for what I believe or is it just some mental fascination?  No evidence?  Likely non-existent.  Evidence?  Likely existent however, how it is described by individuals will vary.

 

Just like the tree in the forest.  Three days ago it was upright.  Today it is horizontal to the ground.  Did the tree fall?  Of course it did.  Doesn't matter if anyone heard, saw, of felt it falling.  Or maybe it was cut down.  Evidence.

In other words Brian: 

A person who meditate or was sitting with himself... can start to feel stuff like warmness or energy or such on this body... 

If the person was a scientist or believe or live in a community, family, friends who believes only in science he would attribute those to some hormones or chemical body reaction and can go ask the doctors etc...

Same person if he lived in a community that is spiritual and is spiritual. and asked gurus/masters.. he is more likely to attribute these to energy and such.

 

both are different worlds... and people move from world to another... it is like incarnation from one world to another... but at the end  when we wake up... we wake up and see what really is.. emptiness, stillness and we are aware of the worlds but not dwelling in them... not dwelling in spirituality and rules and limitation, sciences....

[Marblehead]

In other words Brian: 

A person who meditate or was sitting with himself... can start to feel stuff like warmness or energy or such on this body... 

If the person was a scientist or believe or live in a community, family, friends who believes only in science he would attribute those to some hormones or chemical body reaction and can go ask the doctors etc...

Same person if he lived in a community that is spiritual and is spiritual. and asked gurus/masters.. he is more likely to attribute these to energy and such.

 

both are different worlds... and people move from world to another... it is like incarnation from one world to another... but at the end  when we wake up... we wake up and see what really is.. emptiness, stillness and we are aware of the worlds but not dwelling in them... not dwelling in spirituality and rules and limitation, sciences....

And that is why Chuang Tzu never answered his own question regarding his butterfly dream. 

 

Both were real to him.  However, if he had asked anyone who was in the house while he was dreaming if he ever mutated into a butterfly I am sure they all would have said "No."

 

Yes, our background knowledge and beliefs greatly determine how we understand things that happen to us.  Your example above regarding meditating and the feelings and understandings we get from our experiences is a perfect example.

 

But they really aren't different worlds.  It is a difference in perspectives - a difference as to how we view the world - the universe.

[Karl]

And that is why Chuang Tzu never answered his own question regarding his butterfly dream. 

 

Both were real to him.  However, if he had asked anyone who was in the house while he was dreaming if he ever mutated into a butterfly I am sure they all would have said "No."

 

Yes, our background knowledge and beliefs greatly determine how we understand things that happen to us.  Your example above regarding meditating and the feelings and understandings we get from our experiences is a perfect example.

 

But they really aren't different worlds.  It is a difference in perspectives - a difference as to how we view the world - the universe.

Not how we perceive (view) but how we interpret (conceptualise) what we perceive.

 

A dog has no name for a tree, to a dog it just is and it only is once he comes upon it. A dog may dream about a tree, but not in the abstract sense, only as a memory of some familiar object. It cannot abstract 'trees' or 'forests' or the number of species of tree, nor how trees grow, or die, nor can it add other species to creat the abstract 'plant life' or consider a science like botany.

 

The stick in the clear tumbler of water looks like any other stick like object to a dog, it doesn't consider the diffraction to be a significant detail. One human might conceive the stick as physically bent, another may argue the stick cannot really be bent by the water. Both see the stick as bent, but each may have a different interpretation of the phenomenon depending on exposure to other knowledge. One may consider it is magic, or that the water pressure bends the stick, the other has knowledge of diffraction.

[dwai]

Sometimes I wonder if its-

 

There is objective reality and,

There are subjective interpretations of it.

 

Objectively you cannot fly,

but is astral travel possible?

i don't know..

 

Our subjective interpretations are riddled

with cultural and egotistic blinds and filters. 

i wonder if there are other dimensions,

lighter ones, stranger ones, tied to this heavy tic toc world..?

i don't know.

and it doesn't really matter what anyone else tells me.

i'll only know, when i experience it.  and if i don't experience it, then.. too bad. 

there's always chocolate.  none of that in the other dimensions, i bet.

 

Objects depend on a subject...

Without a subject there would be no objects or need for objects...it's a hard concept for folks to grasp

[rene]

... and we are aware of the worlds but not dwelling in them... not dwelling in spirituality and rules and limitation, sciences....

Or perhaps dwell in all worlds simultaneously, as they are unboundaried, in full support of the whole. Or so it seems to me.

 

warm regards

[Karl]

Objects depend on a subject...

Without a subject there would be no objects or need for objects...it's a hard concept for folks to grasp

No it's easy to grasp. It's the primacy of consciousness over existence. The subjective over the objective. Consciousness must be conscious of something - a consciousness conscious of no-thing would not be existent. Therefore it is simple to conclude that existence (object) exists and consciousness grasps the object as a subject. Therefore the primacy of existence. Consciousness is something, it has identity and a nature, therefore it exists. In order that it exists, existence must have primacy.

 

Existence is identity; consciousness is identification.

[Brian]

Or perhaps dwell in all worlds simultaneously, as they are unboundaried, in full support of the whole. Or so it seems to me.

 

warm regards

Yes.

[Brian]

Curiously enough, this just landed in my inbox:

 

Consciousness and Cosmos

 

Just food for thought.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Brian

[Marblehead]

I will leave that in the basket of "possible".

 

I always argue against the concept of universal consciousness.  But from a certain perspective, plants are conscious.  As are microbial bacteria.  Do such conditions exist throughout the universe?

[Brian]

I will leave that in the basket of "possible".

 

I always argue against the concept of universal consciousness.  But from a certain perspective, plants are conscious.  As are microbial bacteria.  Do such conditions exist throughout the universe?

What conditions? To support life, you mean? We are still struggling to define what "life" means and which conditions support life on just this one planet. We keep finding new forms in places we previously thought couldn't possibly support life (no oxygen, extreme heat, sulfuric acid, etc., etc.) -- and that's just in our own little microcosm with our current limited understanding.

[dwai]

No it's easy to grasp. It's the primacy of consciousness over existence. The subjective over the objective. Consciousness must be conscious of something - a consciousness conscious of no-thing would not be existent. Therefore it is simple to conclude that existence (object) exists and consciousness grasps the object as a subject. Therefore the primacy of existence. Consciousness is something, it has identity and a nature, therefore it exists. In order that it exists, existence must have primacy.

 

Existence is identity; consciousness is identification.

 

Hmm...wonder how your consciousness was able to conceptualize no-thing? You have to have an idea of what it is before articulating it right?

 

Your logic is flawed because existence depends on consciousness. Without consciousness what is the mechanism to confirm existence (or non-existence) of something?

[Marblehead]

... and that's just in our own little microcosm with our current limited understanding.

Yep.  Therefore we need more understanding.  We have no proof yet but conditions here on Earth indicates life exists all over the universe.  I would lay money that life still exists on Mars as well as in the atmosphere of Venus.  No proof yet so still only "possible".

 

But even given that it does, would that change my understanding of "consciousness"?  I doubt it but "possible".

[Stosh]

... How much money ?