if you believe in it, it will exist or else nothing really exist?

[Marblehead]

... How much money ?

I'm sure I can be bought but no one has offered a large enough amount yet.

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

We have found a living rock. I was with my mom and we saw some crabs at this nature site that constantly waved their hands back and forth to attract mates. Were the crabs conscious of this? No. The sun consumes and exhumes. Galaxies reproduce. The whole universe is a moving living thing.

[Karl]

Hmm...wonder how your consciousness was able to conceptualize no-thing? You have to have an idea of what it is before articulating it right?

 

Your logic is flawed because existence depends on consciousness. Without consciousness what is the mechanism to confirm existence (or non-existence) of something?

Consciousness cannot conceptualise no-thing, only the absence of a particular thing and that is hard enough. Try not thinking of a blue tree and you must first imagine the blue tree before negating it.

 

No mechanism is required to confirm existence. Existence exists and consciousness is conscious of it. To be conscious of nothing is a contradiction. A consciousness without anything to grasp would be unconscious, it would be an impossibility.

 

As an aside:

Most people don't think in the inverse, they accept what they see without questioning reality, it's only those capable of higher abstractions that can think the way you do. I refer to that as the stage of 'mountain top' because I also once looked down from those lofty heights and became seduced by them.

 

How long one stay there varies, Come down as fast as possible and find the perspective. First the valley, next the climb to the mountaintop, then the return to the valley having seen two other perspectives: the first is to accept the mountain/valley without question ( stage of ignorance), the second is to see the valley from the mountain (stage of evasion), third is to see the mountain and valley as they are ( stage of enlightenment).

 

At each stage only the conception changes, there is still the carrying of water and the chopping of wood. Reality does not alter, existence exists and consciousness remains conscious of it. I do not think it's possible to pass directly from 1st to 3rd although I have entertained the possibility that it might. It's also really difficult to determine 1st stage people from the enlightened as their perspectives agree, but I think (cannot prove) that one must first pass through the 'eye of the needle' the 'mountaintop' in Karlosophy terminology:-) and thus those who have passed through retain the ability to understand that perspective equally.

 

Those who cannot understand the perspective of primacy of consciousness(in the epistemological technical sense) have not attempted to climb the mountain-for them I do not think they even see it, or maybe they are already enlightened ? . It is for those people that rule books are written-much as for elementary students receive a set of pre-cast formula for squares, circles, cubes and such like, but the advanced mathematician is able to do so from first principles.

 

It is often said that only children and professors really accept calculus-the first because they do not question, the second because they have fully understood. Everyone else floats in the area of accepting it works and having a foggy knowledge why it does, but not having worked through the steps it can be somewhat like a magic spell. This is somewhat as I see it. It's a working hypothesis only, not a scientific one in any sense, but it is interesting how it does seem to mirror the spiritual philosophers experience.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Karl

[Karl]

We have found a living rock. I was with my mom and we saw some crabs at this nature site that constantly waved their hands back and forth to attract mates. Were the crabs conscious of this? No. The sun consumes and exhumes. Galaxies reproduce. The whole universe is a moving living thing.

Crabs are conscious, but only perceptually. The whole universe is in motion, only living things have volitional movement. Living things are causal operators which is their nature. Other none living objects have no volition, they are in motion, but have no volitional impulse- this impulse is the living entities purpose to survive.

[Shad282]

Consciousness cannot conceptualise no-thing, only the absence of a particular thing and that is hard enough. Try not thinking of a blue tree and you must first imagine the blue tree before negating it.

 

No mechanism is required to confirm existence. Existence exists and consciousness is conscious of it. To be conscious of nothing is a contradiction. A consciousness without anything to grasp would be unconscious, it would be an impossibility.

 

As an aside:

Most people don't think in the inverse, they accept what they see without questioning reality, it's only those capable of higher abstractions that can think the way you do. I refer to that as the stage of 'mountain top' because I also once looked down from those lofty heights and became seduced by them.

 

How long one stay there varies, Come down as fast as possible and find the perspective. First the valley, next the climb to the mountaintop, then the return to the valley having seen two other perspectives: the first is to accept the mountain/valley without question ( stage of ignorance), the second is to see the valley from the mountain (stage of evasion), third is to see the mountain and valley as they are ( stage of enlightenment).

 

At each stage only the conception changes, there is still the carrying of water and the chopping of wood. Reality does not alter, existence exists and consciousness remains conscious of it. I do not think it's possible to pass directly from 1st to 3rd although I have entertained the possibility that it might. It's also really difficult to determine 1st stage people from the enlightened as their perspectives agree, but I think (cannot prove) that one must first pass through the 'eye of the needle' the 'mountaintop' in Karlosophy terminology:-) and thus those who have passed through retain the ability to understand that perspective equally.

 

Those who cannot understand the perspective of primacy of consciousness(in the epistemological technical sense) have not attempted to climb the mountain-for them I do not think they even see it, or maybe they are already enlightened ? . It is for those people that rule books are written-much as for elementary students receive a set of pre-cast formula for squares, circles, cubes and such like, but the advanced mathematician is able to do so from first principles.

 

It is often said that only children and professors really accept calculus-the first because they do not question, the second because they have fully understood. Everyone else floats in the area of accepting it works and having a foggy knowledge why it does, but not having worked through the steps it can be somewhat like a magic spell. This is somewhat as I see it. It's a working hypothesis only, not a scientific one in any sense, but it is interesting how it does seem to mirror the spiritual philosophers experience.

at the end, we all can't know the answer, the difference in realities and the non-reality because we are limited into our own mind, and we can't be out of it, out of its limitations... on the other hand, that is why some traditions and such try to go out of body and use the spirit as a way to see the reality beyond the mind... but this also, might be a part of the mind and is limited by the reality created by the mind.

that is why you can't escape the paradox of words because the words are designed to explain and refer to this world reality and is limited by it and you will be explaining the self with its own self aka remain limited.

that is why what u said is still boxed in a limited belief about reality, and what i m asking here is to think out of the box of all possibilities.

 

P.S. Again, consciousness is not just an observer it can affect reality on a level beyond the physical reality we believe in, that is what quantum physics is about also, we already discussed that subject before and sent you proofs that u can try at home. 

[Stosh]

I dont really know the mind of a fiddler crab, but figure , it has to have some kind of idea about itself, to recognize its own burrow vs that of its neighbor...at least. But a marble would drop into any depression without preference.

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

Crabs are conscious, but only perceptually. The whole universe is in motion, only living things have volitional movement. Living things are causal operators which is their nature. Other none living objects have no volition, they are in motion, but have no volitional impulse- this impulse is the living entities purpose to survive.

 

No, you closed minded fool!!! The entire universe is a voluntary motion of the Tao!! You are God!!!

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

I dont really know the mind of a fiddler crab, but figure , it has to have some kind of idea about itself, to recognize its own burrow vs that of its neighbor...at least. But a marble would drop into any depression without preference.

Yes, perhaps your right. It may have a discriminatory mind.

[Karl]

at the end, we all can't know the answer, the difference in realities and the non-reality because we are limited into our own mind, and we can't be out of it, out of its limitations... on the other hand, that is why some traditions and such try to go out of body and use the spirit as a way to see the reality beyond the mind... but this also, might be a part of the mind and is limited by the reality created by the mind.

that is why you can't escape the paradox of words because the words are designed to explain and refer to this world reality and is limited by it and you will be explaining the self with its own self aka remain limited.

that is why what u said is still boxed in a limited belief about reality, and what i m asking here is to think out of the box of all possibilities.

 

P.S. Again, consciousness is not just an observer it can affect reality on a level beyond the physical reality we believe in, that is what quantum physics is about also, we already discussed that subject before and sent you proofs that u can try at home.

 

Unfortunately your PS is precisely where 'that' kind of thinking brings man. A return to mysticism and the abandonment of reason.

 

What you believe is 'out of the box' are just wishes. I already know what you are searching for. It is indelible, hard etched, immobile, permanent, fixed and eternal. I cannot show it to you, it cannot be read in the pages of a book, nor fall from the lips of a guru, it is knowledge that has to be integrated with care, effort and precision. Not one concept can be out of place, no floating abstractions, nor foggy definitions. It is to be the volitional force of mind which grinds itself towards perfection with relentless and consistent effort. It cannot be haphazard, nor lazy, it must be an all consuming fire that burns down the irrational with its focused will to discover what lies within the ashes.

 

The problem is that impossibly high places make men feel like Gods and reality as a plaything. To climb all the way down the mountain to leaden, cold hard reality feels like a retreat to a place once inhabited before the climb. It seems like a return to ignorance when the high places provide such splendid solitude and an eagles nest from which to watch the ignorant, unenlightened who never guessed at what is above them. To give up that piece of real estate appears to be a step backwards. It is nothing but the crippled ego attempting to fly, to flee it's earthly prison.

[Karl]

No, you closed minded fool!!! The entire universe is a voluntary motion of the Tao!! You are God!!!

I'm not :-) I'm a man. A God is omniscient and omnipotent, a God can learn nothing, a God needs nothing, a God creates nothing, a God loves nothing. A God is limited, it has reached its limits due to its indestructible, all knowing nature. A man has no limits as yet defined. A mans consciousness is capable of growth beyond that of any God, it his position as man that gives him wings that Gods could never dream of.

[blackstar212]

a fact is only a fact inside an interpretation, and interpretations come from humans.

 

As can plainly be seen there is a space between objective and subjective. Humans are so full of ego they think there are many things when in fact there is but one.

 

Where does the tree meet the earth and become separate? When does a human life really start?

 

A rock is half brown and half gray what are the separate halves called hmmmm they have decided not to separate this but instead separate the tree from the earth or water from land. It is all one it is all Tao.

[Marblehead]

Yes, perhaps your right. It may have a discriminatory mind.

Well, from watching documentaries on TV I know that the male will chase off and even fight with other males but it grabs any females that pass by and tries to make love with her.

 

That's discriminating!

[dwai]

Consciousness cannot conceptualise no-thing, only the absence of a particular thing and that is hard enough. Try not thinking of a blue tree and you must first imagine the blue tree before negating it.

 

No mechanism is required to confirm existence. Existence exists and consciousness is conscious of it. To be conscious of nothing is a contradiction. A consciousness without anything to grasp would be unconscious, it would be an impossibility.

 

 

 

Of course it is possible to be conscious of No-thing....that is what we do when we meditate. Rest in Pure consciousness...there is no thing. You can do it too...just turn your mind around to observe the observer. You do it in deep sleep too...

 

If we identify with our mind-stuff, we feel this is not possible. When we identify with that which does the identification, we know it is very possible. 

 

 

As an aside:

Most people don't think in the inverse, they accept what they see without questioning reality, it's only those capable of higher abstractions that can think the way you do. I refer to that as the stage of 'mountain top' because I also once looked down from those lofty heights and became seduced by them.

 

How long one stay there varies, Come down as fast as possible and find the perspective. First the valley, next the climb to the mountaintop, then the return to the valley having seen two other perspectives: the first is to accept the mountain/valley without question ( stage of ignorance), the second is to see the valley from the mountain (stage of evasion), third is to see the mountain and valley as they are ( stage of enlightenment).

 

At each stage only the conception changes, there is still the carrying of water and the chopping of wood. Reality does not alter, existence exists and consciousness remains conscious of it. I do not think it's possible to pass directly from 1st to 3rd although I have entertained the possibility that it might. It's also really difficult to determine 1st stage people from the enlightened as their perspectives agree, but I think (cannot prove) that one must first pass through the 'eye of the needle' the 'mountaintop' in Karlosophy terminology:-) and thus those who have passed through retain the ability to understand that perspective equally.

 

Those who cannot understand the perspective of primacy of consciousness(in the epistemological technical sense) have not attempted to climb the mountain-for them I do not think they even see it, or maybe they are already enlightened ? . It is for those people that rule books are written-much as for elementary students receive a set of pre-cast formula for squares, circles, cubes and such like, but the advanced mathematician is able to do so from first principles.

 

It is often said that only children and professors really accept calculus-the first because they do not question, the second because they have fully understood. Everyone else floats in the area of accepting it works and having a foggy knowledge why it does, but not having worked through the steps it can be somewhat like a magic spell. This is somewhat as I see it. It's a working hypothesis only, not a scientific one in any sense, but it is interesting how it does seem to mirror the spiritual philosophers experience.

 

Too many words. Cut the words out. Can you sit in stillness and silence for 5 minutes with absolutely no movement of your mind?  

[Marblehead]

Remember, you were talking with Karl when you said this:

You can do it too...

I won't deny the possibility but it might end up being one of the biggest challenges of Karl's life.

[Karl]

a fact is only a fact inside an interpretation, and interpretations come from humans.As can plainly be seen there is a space between objective and subjective. Humans are so full of ego they think there are many things when in fact there is but one.Where does the tree meet the earth and become separate? When does a human life really start?A rock is half brown and half gray what are the separate halves called hmmmm they have decided not to separate this but instead separate the tree from the earth or water from land. It is all one it is all Tao.

This is correct, but this doesn't mean that ALL interpretations are in error. This is why it is necessary to link the conceptual to the perceptual. From the abstract to the concrete. This is how reason, logic and science became more analytical tools in order to explore reality with greater accuracy. At that time we began to withdraw from the whim, wishes and worship of mysticism and man took a giant leap forward in understanding. After Kant wrote his philosophical diahorrea with the aim of supporting religion/altruism over reason, he effectively started a war on reason. Kant won. However, he did not win much, Hegel/Dewey/Marx used the arrowhead he had forged to kill God anyway. It left man with neither God, nor reason. Muscle mysticism and its associated political ideals of collectivism/communism/fascism took the place of enlightened political thinking.

 

The human mind is the ego, reason is its absolute, production is its goal. Today's men have shrunken egos as they have shrunken minds in which reason is vanquished over whim and subjectivism. Men refuse to believe they can know reality and hence live in a state of pathetic dreaming like caged animals looking up only to see what pleasure maybe afforded them and casting aside values like chaff.

 

Everything comprises the universe, man makes sense of the universal soup because he must, his survival depends on knowledge and production. That knowledge must accord with concrete existence or it will be useless to him and he will diminish and die. All mans knowledge is towards one goal- maintaining his life as the primary value of every other value he must seek in order to maintain it; his mind as the only tool by which he can obtain those values and his ethics/morals the principles by which he best accomplishes them. Everything must be rooted in concrete existence, mind, reason, conception, morals, ethics, body cannot evade reality even if they can evade believing it.

[Karl]

Of course it is possible to be conscious of No-thing....that is what we do when we meditate. Rest in Pure consciousness...there is no thing. You can do it too...just turn your mind around to observe the observer. You do it in deep sleep too...

 

If we identify with our mind-stuff, we feel this is not possible. When we identify with that which does the identification, we know it is very possible.

 

 

Too many words. Cut the words out. Can you sit in stillness and silence for 5 minutes with absolutely no movement of your mind?

 

Parse the difference between unconsciousness and evasive conceptual thought. The mind that is aware there is no thoughts-is conceptualising 'no thoughts'. If one is unconscious then there are no conceptual thoughts. I learned this early on during meditation, that to see a blank screen, is to conceive and be conscious of a blank screen. This is how the witness arises, how to see our thoughts, to see we are never without them until we stop thinking and we only do that when we are unconscious-sleeping. Even then we have dream states and low level thoughts which we can access if that's our wish.

 

I can sit for five minutes knowing that to think the mind is still is to be in error. When the mind is still, it is unconscious.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Karl

[Karl]

Remember, you were talking with Karl when you said this:

 

I won't deny the possibility but it might end up being one of the biggest challenges of Karl's life.

You are cheeky fond Mr MH :-) but I love you for it :-)

[dwai]

Parse the difference between unconsciousness and evasive conceptual thought. The mind that is aware there is no thoughts-is conceptualising 'no thoughts'. If one is unconscious then there are no conceptual thoughts. I learned this early on during meditation, that to see a blank screen, is to conceive and be conscious of a blank screen. This is how the witness arises, how to see our thoughts, to see we are never without them until we stop thinking and we only do that when we are unconscious-sleeping. Even then we have dream states and low level thoughts which we can access if that's our wish.

 

I can sit for five minutes knowing that to think the mind is still is to be in error. When the mind is still, it is unconscious.

 

Haha if only that was the case. Mind is empty and still at that time. Only in memory is the mind making a statement that there were no objects. However, the mind is just a tool. It is the surface of the surface of Pure Consciousness...

 

The biggest fallacy is to consider the mind to be anything more than a mere tool...a sensory apparatus that is used to process objects. What is in the mind when it's not processing external objects, it is processing internal objects born from memory. We struggle with simply being because we pay too much importance to the "mind". 

 

When you still the mind, you will know your Self.

Edited September 14, 2016 by dwai

[Karl]

Haha if only that was the case. Mind is empty and still at that time. Only in memory is the mind making a statement that there were no objects. However, the mind is just a tool. It is the surface of the surface of Pure Consciousness...

 

The biggest fallacy is to consider the mind to be anything more than a mere tool...a sensory apparatus that is used to process objects. What is in the mind when it's not processing external objects, it is processing internal objects born from memory. We struggle with simply being because we pay too much importance to the "mind". 

 

When you still the mind, you will know your Self.

what are using to formulate a reply sugar puffs ? The mind isn't 'just' it is 'all'. The reason people fear 'losing their minds' isn't whim, it's terrifying, but then perhaps you have not experienced it ?

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

I'm not :-) I'm a man. A God is omniscient and omnipotent, a God can learn nothing, a God needs nothing, a God creates nothing, a God loves nothing. A God is limited, it has reached its limits due to its indestructible, all knowing nature. A man has no limits as yet defined. A mans consciousness is capable of growth beyond that of any God, it his position as man that gives him wings that Gods could never dream of.

 

YOU are omnipresent and omnipotent. YOU can learn anything. You need nothing. What? After that you are making stuff up. We are all eyes of God. We are his eyes. Have you not read any of Lobsang Rampa's books???

 

Okay, I don't know what you mean by the word "god". I mean what all religious texts mean. 

[dwai]

what are using to formulate a reply sugar puffs ? The mind isn't 'just' it is 'all'. The reason people fear 'losing their minds' isn't whim, it's terrifying, but then perhaps you have not experienced it ?

If you're afraid of losing your mind, be prepared to remain trapped in a prison of your own making

[Karl]

If you're afraid of losing your mind, be prepared to remain trapped in a prison of your own making

Prison is a concept of the mind, mind is a concept of the mind, concepts aren't concretes and there is no way to make them concrete within conception. A prison is a man made construction, a concept made concrete. It is because you believe in the primacy of consciousness that you imagine your mind as a prison. This is another version of the religious mysticism that describes the body as a prison of the soul. There is nothing new in that.

[Karl]

YOU are omnipresent and omnipotent. YOU can learn anything. You need nothing. What? After that you are making stuff up. We are all eyes of God. We are his eyes. Have you not read any of Lobsang Rampa's books???

 

Okay, I don't know what you mean by the word "god". I mean what all religious texts mean.

 

I'm neither omnipresent nor omnipotent. There is no God. Learning isn't an issue, though conceptual integration can be, it isn't error free.

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

You are a closed minded fool. Why is there no God? Because you want to be special and you are stubborn!! You have put our foot down, so you cannot possible exist!! Nothing is aware of reading this!! Woo woo, let's dance around and say there is no God for no reason!!  

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

Oh yes yes.......the universe is in this case a desolate place with no life. Every piece of matter has no inherent existence. What a sad scene!! Oh wait!! it cannot be sad because no life exists even though you are perceiving now. No life exists to call it sad!! We are all automatons!! Woo woo, let's party like theres no tomorrow!! Oh wait, there is no life to party!!! You've put your foot down, so now you live in an utter paradox!!!

 

There can't possibly be life, could there? Oh no, that would make you sound religious. We wouldn't want that.