Mountains and Not Mountains

[Orion]

“Before I sought enlightenment, the mountains were mountains and the rivers were rivers.
While I sought enlightenment, the mountains were not mountains and the rivers were not rivers.
After I attained enlightenment, the mountains were mountains and the rivers were rivers.”
- Zen Proverb

 

It's all happening right here. Anything that teaches that there's somewhere to go or something to achieve is just trying to teach another method of control, ultimately.

 

There is obviously a difference between pre and post, not in the objects but in the awareness. It's not true to say we were better off as babies because they are born empty. There's something about returning to innocence after seeing the mountains were not mountains, that is different... more lucid. We are living in a dream.

 

Don't get too hung up on the word "enlightened". Let's just talk about the essence...

 

The thing is... you don't gain anything by achieving this. Inner peace, supreme wisdom, ending of suffering, love... none of these are the point of enlightenment. There is nothing out there to grasp onto. There is no point. It arises and dissolves, and that's it. Everything is like that. This is a dream. One minute you're in love, the next you're dying in the dirt... no matter what happens, you're always "it". You're always there. No trying necessary, but if you feel like trying you're still "it" anyway.

 

I have been struggling with how to bring this into my human level experience. If everything is pointless, if there is ultimate freedom, if there is no inherent meaning or structure, then how do I live?

 

Seems that... the answer is that I am this, and not this, simultaneously. You build a sand castle and the ocean washes it away. Did the sand castle have a point?

 

If you know the candle light is fire then the meal was cooked along time ago. We are living in one big post hoc fallacy -- that because you've always been here, you came from something. Can you please point to this "you"?

 

But this reality, this life, is gnawing. It goes on and on. The awareness never ends. It's a kind of helplessness that has no real solution because nobody is doing it.

 

I find myself going to Vajra Buddhist ceremonies, getting "empowerments" - emptiness empowering emptiness - what do we think we're really doing here? There's nothing in here for karma to attach to. There's nowhere to store merit in a vessel that is already empty.

 

I already hung up the phone, but the phone keeps ringing. And when I answer the phone, the call has already ended. Yet I keep answering. Why?

 

There's nothing happening here. I could do anything I wanted, or do nothing, and it wouldn't matter.

 

Sometimes when I see people earnestly seeking so much, I want to tell them to just focus on the material world. If someone offers you money or enlightenment, take the money. At least money can create temporary experiences and joy. Ultimately it doesn't matter either way. Nothing is wrong.

 

I suppose it does free up a lot of energy to not worry about things that don't exist. Like what it means to you personally if you can't pay your bills. Worst case scenario is you lose everything and die. But now you know -- it was never yours anyway.

 

Just some things moving through my awareness... no point really.

[3bob]

yea sounds like some neo-nihilistic sounding stuff... and or some "to be or not to be" ponderings, etc.

 

Maybe try study of the Upanishads and the true Self, they don't leave our ass hanging in the wind - btw and also remember that the historic Buddha realized and said, "wonder of wonders" thus be very careful about all of the dead-end gnawing on concepts crap - that's imo. anyway.

[Marblehead]

yea sounds like some neo-nihilistic sounding stuff...

That's what I thought while reading it.

 

But it's not, really.

 

The last two paragraphs clarify that.

 

I understand what Orion is saying (actually asking).

 

Where's the meaning in life?

 

There's no meaning; there's just life.

 

And there's not much else to do but experience it.  And then die.  Hehehe.

[3bob]

MH, not so going by  the historic Buddha's alluding to and meaning (since Orion is quoting Buddhist stuff) that was termed the, "Wonder of wonders" which does not die, and which is more than just a dry scientific  concept of energy that does not die...

[Marblehead]

I will leave Buddha alone.  He lived and then died just like everyone else does.

 

Yes, I know, my dry scientific stuff is boring.  But that's what I have to work with.

 

I don't use LSD so I won't be trippin'.

[Jetsun]

No point but still kinda funny, everyone running around taking themselves soooo seriously, when the spell of the mind is broken sometimes all you can do is burst out laughing at the absurdity. Bowing down and worshiping yourself also kinda ridiculous. From one perspective the Heart Sutra is the greatest comedy ever written.

[Marblehead]

I don't know anything about the Heart Sutra but I think I will "Thank you" your post anyhow.

[Karl]

Mans life is an end in itself. His chosen goals are the result of his need to sustain it. His ethics are the chosen principles by which he achieves his goals. Happiness is the result of values obtained through those chosen principles.

 

As MH said 'we live and then we die' but our purpose is directed towards sustaining our lives and our reward for the fruitful, moral quest is happiness for as long as it lasts.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Choice is important part of the equation though, right?

 

Gaining the insight of choice and observation, piercing the veil of misconception etc.

Agreed that control is nigh on an illusion and our chances to exert it are intermittent, so tied to specifics and timing that a lot of the time it's not control but choosing the least "expensive"way to roll with the punches.

 

But there is choice, there in the inner. Choosing to take advantage of the gap between stimuli and reaction, reaction and action.

Difficult to implement in the daily, difficult to hang onto in times of pressure, but it is a way to take the reins and move towards healing, integrating and being less self-serious / easily led by the nose. Or am i wandering off in the wrong direction?

 

I cant honestly tell what enlightenment is, outside reports are often intricate courses on how to build a beautiful pedestal and those that claim to be enlightened are seldom very concerned on being understood, except for when they are and then you get a feeling that there is ulterior motive or info. Not necessarily bad ones, but something is shaded, wether intentional or not.

 

Sometimes i feel enlightened, sometimes i know i'm not.

It's silly. It feels like enlightenment could be the fact that one metaphorically got on the bus going towards something. Utterly unspecial yet important to ones voyage towards whatever it is one is doing.

 

*phone ringing*

Caller: "I got enlightened!"

Responder: "So you're on the bus going there now?"

C: "Yup."

R: "Ok, good! See you later!"

 

[rene]

Seems that... the answer is that I am this, and not this, simultaneously. You build a sand castle and the ocean washes it away. Did the sand castle have a point?

 

If you need it to have a point, give it one.

 

Not knowing the answer, I choose joy.

[Brian]

If you need it to have a point, give it one.

 

Not knowing the answer, I choose joy.

That's why I build 'em.

 

 

 

Well, that and their trade value...

[doc benway]

“Before I sought enlightenment, the mountains were mountains and the rivers were rivers.

While I sought enlightenment, the mountains were not mountains and the rivers were not rivers.

After I attained enlightenment, the mountains were mountains and the rivers were rivers.”

- Zen Proverb

 

It's all happening right here. Anything that teaches that there's somewhere to go or something to achieve is just trying to teach another method of control, ultimately.

 

There is obviously a difference between pre and post, not in the objects but in the awareness. It's not true to say we were better off as babies because they are born empty. There's something about returning to innocence after seeing the mountains were not mountains, that is different... more lucid. We are living in a dream.

 

Don't get too hung up on the word "enlightened". Let's just talk about the essence...

 

The thing is... you don't gain anything by achieving this. Inner peace, supreme wisdom, ending of suffering, love... none of these are the point of enlightenment. There is nothing out there to grasp onto. There is no point. It arises and dissolves, and that's it. Everything is like that. This is a dream. One minute you're in love, the next you're dying in the dirt... no matter what happens, you're always "it". You're always there. No trying necessary, but if you feel like trying you're still "it" anyway.

 

I have been struggling with how to bring this into my human level experience. If everything is pointless, if there is ultimate freedom, if there is no inherent meaning or structure, then how do I live?

 

Seems that... the answer is that I am this, and not this, simultaneously. You build a sand castle and the ocean washes it away. Did the sand castle have a point?

 

If you know the candle light is fire then the meal was cooked along time ago. We are living in one big post hoc fallacy -- that because you've always been here, you came from something. Can you please point to this "you"?

 

But this reality, this life, is gnawing. It goes on and on. The awareness never ends. It's a kind of helplessness that has no real solution because nobody is doing it.

 

I find myself going to Vajra Buddhist ceremonies, getting "empowerments" - emptiness empowering emptiness - what do we think we're really doing here? There's nothing in here for karma to attach to. There's nowhere to store merit in a vessel that is already empty.

 

I already hung up the phone, but the phone keeps ringing. And when I answer the phone, the call has already ended. Yet I keep answering. Why?

 

There's nothing happening here. I could do anything I wanted, or do nothing, and it wouldn't matter.

 

Sometimes when I see people earnestly seeking so much, I want to tell them to just focus on the material world. If someone offers you money or enlightenment, take the money. At least money can create temporary experiences and joy. Ultimately it doesn't matter either way. Nothing is wrong.

 

I suppose it does free up a lot of energy to not worry about things that don't exist. Like what it means to you personally if you can't pay your bills. Worst case scenario is you lose everything and die. But now you know -- it was never yours anyway.

 

Just some things moving through my awareness... no point really.

 

No point at all and yet it needs to come out, it is continuing to work on you, and us, and it is beautiful!

Thank you for sharing that.

 

Peter Fenner summarizes this point well when he says something like - 'if I didn't do what I didn't need to do I wouldn't know I didn't need to do it.' What is the point of even saying that? None, other than it can be helpful to others who are ready or need to hear it. 

 

The whole process is fascinating. To the extent it results in our lives being more free and open and allows us to connect with our inner resource of creativity, joy, and contentment, it is wonderful. To the extent that it leads us to nihilism or frustration, it can be very difficult and unproductive. That transition is generally associated with some degree of uncertainty and pain - it ain't easy.

 

Some people recognize that things as they are at a given point in their lives are unsatisfactory. That seems to be what puts our feet on the path. Then we walk that path for as long as we need to until we are ready to let it go. What matters for me is that staying on the path supports me in living in a way that is consistent with my core values - integrity and helping others. For me the main difference between the mountains before and after, is awareness and the personal changes associated with going through the process.

[3bob]

I'd say that the human point and Right choice is Dharma (or a Tao that is in alignment with the Great Tao) and for human beings to realize such is natural and also Noble in the sense that such has foundational and quintessential meaning for being - instead of spending to much time in ripping one's mind and heart to shreds, especially if such is seen as or becomes an end point

Edited September 17, 2016 by 3bob

[thelerner]

 If someone offers you money or enlightenment, take the money. At least money can create temporary experiences and joy. Ultimately it doesn't matter either way. Nothing is wrong.

 

I suppose it does free up a lot of energy to not worry about things that don't exist. Like what it means to you personally if you can't pay your bills. Worst case scenario is you lose everything and die. But now you know -- it was never yours anyway.

Yeah, take the money cause no one can sell you enlightenment. 

 

On the other hand, within my idea of enlightenment (everyone's may be different) is the phenomena of 'flow'.   Flowing through life, taking it as it is, without so much drama.  Living with ease, unencumbered by the many worries and anxieties that plague modern life.  

 

Gaining that perspective, is probably worth alot. 

[Orion]

yea sounds like some neo-nihilistic sounding stuff... and or some "to be or not to be" ponderings, etc.

 

Maybe try study of the Upanishads and the true Self, they don't leave our ass hanging in the wind - btw and also remember that the historic Buddha realized and said, "wonder of wonders" thus be very careful about all of the dead-end gnawing on concepts crap - that's imo. anyway.

 

I am ironically accused of being too conceptual, if only I would just choose some concepts to work with. lol.

 

In a lot of ways these dead experts prevent us from seeing the naked truth. It's just replacing mind with more mind. Can we just talk about the experience of living without referencing various gods?

 

I'm describing an awareness, a sensation, an embodied feeling... not a concept. I'm just good at language association. I didn't choose the quote because I wanted to do the Buddha justice or paraphrase his ideology perfectly. I chose it because it evoked a certain concept coordinate for me that related to an awareness experience.

 

You are hanging in the wind. Yes, the power of choice lets you momentarily feel different ways about, but they are all temporary states in a greater free fall. Good news is, there's no bottom... sometimes you feel like you're flying and other times just falling.

 

These books, people, and concepts are reinforcement of the fear that we associate with feeling the free fall, IMO. They give a sense of order and control. But I don't want to mess with peoples self-created structures too much... I know how important those structures are, however temporary. So do what thou wilt, and that's all it comes down to anyway.

 

I'm attempting to come to terms with being this and not-this at the same time. Choosing a life when I am faced with the redundancy of my own human level experience.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Orion

[3bob]

Sounds like some fancy B.S.?  for real experts (who are speaking or who left words of wisdom) help lead us to the threshold of That...regardless of time, space and even mountains of karma!

 

And no, Dharma is not hanging in the wind willy-nilly, also the True Self is indestructible and not bound by mind structures, -thus neither falling nor rising in a feeling its way around.

 

Btw, those standing at the gate unseen by physical eyes and who live as compassion are not dead. 

Edited September 17, 2016 by 3bob

[Karl]

I am ironically accused of being too conceptual, if only I would just choose some concepts to work with. lol.

 

In a lot of ways these dead experts prevent us from seeing the naked truth. It's just replacing mind with more mind. Can we just talk about the experience of living without referencing various gods?

 

I'm describing an awareness, a sensation, an embodied feeling... not a concept. I'm just good at language association. I didn't choose the quote because I wanted to do the Buddha justice or paraphrase his ideology perfectly. I chose it because it evoked a certain concept coordinate for me that related to an awareness experience.

 

You are hanging in the wind. Yes, the power of choice lets you momentarily feel different ways about, but they are all temporary states in a greater free fall. Good news is, there's no bottom... sometimes you feel like you're flying and other times just falling.

 

These books, people, and concepts are reinforcement of the fear that we associate with feeling the free fall, IMO. They give a sense of order and control. But I don't want to mess with peoples self-created structures too much... I know how important those structures are, however temporary. So do what thou wilt, and that's all it comes down to anyway.

 

I'm attempting to come to terms with being this and not-this at the same time. Choosing a life when I am faced with the redundancy of my own human level experience.

"Replacing mind with more mind" yes indeed, though actually it is building more concepts into the present mind. There is no escape from our minds, as there is no escape from ourselves. We have to make it work.

[Jetsun]

"Replacing mind with more mind" yes indeed, though actually it is building more concepts into the present mind. There is no escape from our minds, as there is no escape from ourselves. We have to make it work.

 

There is escape from identity with the mind and identity from all its thoughts, that is the whole point of the majority of spiritual paths. 

[Karl]

There is escape from identity with the mind and identity from all its thoughts, that is the whole point of the majority of spiritual paths.

 

For what purpose ?

 

You can't think your way out of thinking Jeff. Either you think or you are brain dead.

[Jetsun]

For what purpose ?

 

You can't think your way out of thinking Jeff. Either you think or you are brain dead.

 

You can't stop thinking no, I have never claimed that, but to transcend identity with thinking just means your sense of "I" isn't being bounced around by your thoughts, another word for it is "liberation" which means liberation from being blown around by hope and fear. Or to get off the wheel or Samsara as Buddhists put it, or to stop living under the whims of a harsh dictator (the intellect) and restore it to its rightful position as a tool or servant. It is also to move towards truth or at least shed all that is false about what and who we are.

 

I guess the purpose of living more in truth is that you live more in harmony with the way things really are, rather than living in the way you imagine or think they should be. But ultimately there isn't a point or purpose because to transcend the mind is to transcend all concepts like purpose, there is just existence or what is.

[Marblehead]

And the mountain is still there.

[Orion]

Sounds like some fancy B.S.?  for real experts (who are speaking or who left words of wisdom) help lead us to the threshold of That...regardless of time, space and even mountains of karma!

 

And no, Dharma is not hanging in the wind willy-nilly, also the True Self is indestructible and not bound by mind structures, -thus neither falling nor rising in a feeling its way around.

 

Btw, those standing at the gate unseen by physical eyes and who live as compassion are not dead. 

 

I can't argue with you... use whatever structures feel right to you.

 

But calling what I'm saying BS reveals a superiority complex that is common on these boards. Instead of listening to experience, people like to assert that they know more than you, somehow.

 

Claiming expertise in order to make yourself the gatekeeper of knowing is just another form of control. The expert is within, no need to look without. We're all the same thing, are we not?

[3bob]

yea the expert is within and all that side-stepping clever stuff... but the help of an "expert" aka true guru is vital otherwise one can bake up a superiority cake (as you started out with) of ingredients from some kind of profound sounding, neo-nihilistic-quasi whatever demeaning variation like, "redundancy of my own human level of experience".

Edited September 17, 2016 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Did our emotions get stimulated?

[dawei]

“Before I sought enlightenment, the mountains were mountains and the rivers were rivers.

While I sought enlightenment, the mountains were not mountains and the rivers were not rivers.

After I attained enlightenment, the mountains were mountains and the rivers were rivers.”

- Zen Proverb

 

It's all happening right here. Anything that teaches that there's somewhere to go or something to achieve is just trying to teach another method of control, ultimately.

 

Wouldn't a teaching that "it's all happening right here" also be a method of control?

 

"in reality, there is nothing to eliminate and nothing to establish" -- Hua Hu Ching.  Tr. Ni