what is the point of existence?

[Seth Ananda]

no on else's answer should be accepted.  you have to find your own.  

I accept that! 

[Jeff]

And water washes them away...

 

Wash the dust from your soul and heart with wisdom's water - Rumi

And one more for Rumi fans, the true fire destroys all blocking it's way...

 

While the thought of the Beloved fills our hearts, All our work is to do Him service and spend life for Him. Wherever He kindles His destructive torch, Myriads of lovers' souls are burnt therewith. The lovers who dwell within the sanctuary Are moths burnt with the torch of the Beloved's face.” O heart haste thither, for God will shine upon you, And seem to you a sweet garden instead of a terror. He will infuse into your soul a new soul, So as to fill you, like a goblet, with wine.

- The Masnavi

Edited September 23, 2016 by Jeff

[Wayfarer]

Of course I can, your reply is proof. The spirit of man is his mind, it is what he thinks. All proof is related to reality and you have typed your thoughts onto a page for me to read.

 

A mystic has no proof because he lives in a world of floating abstractions unrelated to reality.

 

The more you type, the greater the proof of my premise becomes. It's a vast heap of evidence that can't be swept under the carpet.

 

Actually Karl a Mystic does not live in a world of floating abstractions - that is what a normal unawakened person does.  The Mystic understands Reality and is therefore not mystical.  It is regular society that describes it as mystical but it is natural.

 

Lao Tsu and Buddha were not mystics.  They understood Reality.  People generally did not understand them, so they were called mystics

[Karl]

Actually Karl a Mystic does not live in a world of floating abstractions - that is what a normal unawakened person does.  The Mystic understands Reality and is therefore not mystical.  It is regular society that describes it as mystical but it is natural.

 

Lao Tsu and Buddha were not mystics.  They understood Reality.  People generally did not understand them, so they were called mystics

That's a very circular argument. I cannot know what Lao Tsu or Buddha knew as their philosophies are written by others. Perhaps they weren't Mystics, but certainly most of their followers are.

 

A mystic in the spiritual tradition believes that it is their feelings/intuition/revelation/inner knowing/heart which is their guide to reality.

 

The muscle mystic rejects that man can know reality in any sense, that we are a collection of squirting glands-or in the more modern sense part of some quantum illusion.

 

I don't know if you ascribe to either of these views, or if LT or Buddah did, but their followers do.

[blue eyed snake]

Beautifully said.

 

But rather than just a candle, I would say you want a raging fire. This song carries the heart of my point...

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTedaWpPjto

 

balance is all,

when the physical vessel is frail, the channels not wide enough,

a raging fire would rage the body to the ground,

leaving spirit with a damaged instrument

 

[Brian]

That's a very circular argument. I cannot know what Lao Tsu or Buddha knew as their philosophies are written by others. Perhaps they weren't Mystics, but certainly most of their followers are.

 

A mystic in the spiritual tradition believes that it is their feelings/intuition/revelation/inner knowing/heart which is their guide to reality.

 

The muscle mystic rejects that man can know reality in any sense, that we are a collection of squirting glands-or in the more modern sense part of some quantum illusion.

 

I don't know if you ascribe to either of these views, or if LT or Buddah did, but their followers do.

Is that really what you believe quantum theory says?

[blue eyed snake]

Actually Karl a Mystic does not live in a world of floating abstractions - that is what a normal unawakened person does.  The Mystic understands Reality and is therefore not mystical.  It is regular society that describes it as mystical but it is natural.

 

Lao Tsu and Buddha were not mystics.  They understood Reality.  People generally did not understand them, so they were called mystics

 

Put nicely wayfarer!

 

That's a very circular argument. I cannot know what Lao Tsu or Buddha knew as their philosophies are written by others. Perhaps they weren't Mystics, but certainly most of their followers are.

 

A mystic in the spiritual tradition believes that it is their feelings/intuition/revelation/inner knowing/heart which is their guide to reality.

 

The muscle mystic rejects that man can know reality in any sense, that we are a collection of squirting glands-or in the more modern sense part of some quantum illusion.

 

I don't know if you ascribe to either of these views, or if LT or Buddah did, but their followers do.

 

hah, but it is not an argument, whether circular or not.

 

When i look at a sunset, I see the most beautiful tinges of red, pink and orange. my son does not, he's colourblind. But the red is there, even though he can't see that, he agrees with that ( and tells me btw that yellow sunsets are beautiful too ). So it is with the Reality that wayfarer means. It's there, for those with the eyes to see it. Not mystical at all.

 

makes not much sense to try to argue people out of that really, 

you're hitting a wall on that one mate

[Karl]

Is that really what you believe quantum theory says?

You know better than to disturb our truce, we will end up with logic and arguments over physics definitions over which you are fanatically accurate and I'm a dim slob. If I thought we could discuss these things without it turning nasty I would plunge in, but the gap between my philosophy and yours is such that I don't think we are on the wrong page, but in entirely different libraries. I say tomato you say tomato and we will be ships in the night chucking broadsides at each other. I like too much of what you say in other areas to get embroiled in definitions of quantum mysticism. We won't agree, we will never agree and I'm comfortable with that disagreement.

[Karl]

Put nicely wayfarer!

 

 

 

hah, but it is not an argument, whether circular or not.

 

When i look at a sunset, I see the most beautiful tinges of red, pink and orange. my son does not, he's colourblind. But the red is there, even though he can't see that, he agrees with that ( and tells me btw that yellow sunsets are beautiful too ). So it is with the Reality that wayfarer means. It's there, for those with the eyes to see it. Not mystical at all.

 

makes not much sense to try to argue people out of that really, 

you're hitting a wall on that one mate

I haven't argued anything yet, I'm waiting for a reply. I'm not sure what point you are making BES ? If it is that existence exists independent of consciousness, that our consciousness grasps existence directly through our senses and sense perception, then I agree. A red sunset is a red sunset even to one who is colourblind, even to one who is totally blind and can see no colour/or have any appreciation of colour. Just as I can't see atoms in a chair, but accept that they are there given sufficient evidence reasoned and concrete evidence.

[Jeff]

balance is all,

when the physical vessel is frail, the channels not wide enough,

a raging fire would rage the body to the ground,

leaving spirit with a damaged instrument

 

I totally agree that balance is all. But, I think you may misunderstand the nature of the fire that I am talking about, and with the nature of the Rumi quotes. The fire does not rage the body, it clears the obstructions that make the body frail in the first place. Also, one realizes that they were never really (or limited to) the body in the first place.

 

That "fire" has another name, it is called "grace" (of God). To give another persptice, from Kashmir Shaivism, The Secret Surpreme by Swami Lakshmanjoo. I have included the description of the first two types of grace/raging fires...

 

...................

 

In the kingdom of spirituality. Lord Siva creates masters and disciples through His fifth act, the act of grace (anugraha). This grace is ninefold and, therefore. He creates masters and disciples in nine different ways.

 

The first and highest level of grace is called tivrativra sak-tipata. Tivrativra saktipata means "super supreme grace." When Lord Siva bestows super supreme grace on anyone, then that person becomes perfectly self-recognized. He knows his real nature completely and in perfection. At the same time, however, this kind of intense grace can not be resisted by his body, so he throws away his body and dies. This person becomes a master; however, he accomplishes the act of his mastery secretly in the deserving hearts of disciples. He is not visible in this world. Only those who are deserving experience his subtle existence.

 

The second intensity of grace is called tivramadhya saktipa-ta. This is "supreme medium grace." The effect of this grace of Lord Siva is that the recipient becomes completely and per-fectly illumined, but does not leave his body. He is said to be a pratibha guru, that is, a master who is made not by another master's initiation, but by his self, by his own grace. He experiences spontaneous enlightenment. These particular masters live in this world with their physical bodies for the upliftment of mankind.

[blue eyed snake]

I totally agree that balance is all. But, I think you may misunderstand the nature of the fire that I am talking about, and with the nature of the Rumi quotes. The fire does not rage the body, it clears the obstructions that make the body frail in the first place. Also, one realizes that they were never really (or limited to) the body in the first place.

 

That "fire" has another name, it is called "grace" (of God). To give another persptice, from Kashmir Shaivism, The Secret Surpreme by Swami Lakshmanjoo. I have included the description of the first two types of grace/raging fires...

 

 

Hi Jeff,

 

I do not misunderstand the nature of the fire, but experience taught me, that the process should be handled carefully. When going too fast, the body and what you call the local mind, will not be able to handle it.

 

I wrote this before and I write it now again, when the issues/blockages are of a severe nature, rooted in trauma, it is a struggle to live through the aftermath of dissolving. This process can hurt the body, more specifically the stress-regulatory system and make the body unfit for anything.

 

going too fast can, indeed, burn people up

[Wu Ming Jen]

what is the point of existence?

 

When we look for one point of all of existence we create chaos. When we look at all of existence we create harmony. 

 

seeing the unseen is truly seeing. knowing the unknown is truly knowing,

 

life is not a question, it just is and we have a choice to make. My choice is adapt or suffer. acceptance.

[sagebrush]

the point of existence:

 

out of the discards from a pile I found a wooden Buddha.

 

for me I do not know much about the Buddha... plenty to learn in ANY category....been busy with stress and relationships...finally a place now where it is much simpler to not be in relationship...what I mean by relationship is the old standby of girlfriend/boyfriend or fill in the blank with--------------------------

 

ok back to the Buddha--

the Buddha was not the savior taught under my roof growing up.

it was jesus-

 

but in this pile of giveaway was a pretty unique object of great wood...maybe teak...

 

I was with someone at the time and theyhad Buddha all over the house but more like an artistic statement ----

I might know a bit more.

what I learned recent on a search was that it is a weeping Buddha---

and for good measure I rubbed olive oil on it....it was very dry.

 

it is amazingly come to life on the pie safe in living room.

 

and all my sunsets have now turned into a poem aka......darya

 

really what nonsense do I mean by that? purple lemonade...coloration....

 

my choice can now be copy above said choice because mine do not seem to work so well.

 

adapt suffer acceptance.

[Bindi]

balance is all,

when the physical vessel is frail, the channels not wide enough,

a raging fire would rage the body to the ground,

leaving spirit with a damaged instrument

 

 

For balance I imagine a broad channel filled with water, and straight through the middle, a narrow channel developed to introduce fire that can be perfectly contained as it travels from point A to point B.

[Brian]

You know better than to disturb our truce, we will end up with logic and arguments over physics definitions over which you are fanatically accurate and I'm a dim slob. If I thought we could discuss these things without it turning nasty I would plunge in, but the gap between my philosophy and yours is such that I don't think we are on the wrong page, but in entirely different libraries. I say tomato you say tomato and we will be ships in the night chucking broadsides at each other. I like too much of what you say in other areas to get embroiled in definitions of quantum mysticism. We won't agree, we will never agree and I'm comfortable with that disagreement.

Perhaps this will be of some value:

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics

[Karl]

Perhaps this will be of some value:https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics

Yes I'm fine with it, not that I necessarily understand it, nor can I discuss it with any alacrity what so ever, but, as I have said on many ocassions, I'm not a physicist.

 

I'm talking about:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mysticism

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff,

 

I do not misunderstand the nature of the fire, but experience taught me, that the process should be handled carefully. When going too fast, the body and what you call the local mind, will not be able to handle it.

 

I wrote this before and I write it now again, when the issues/blockages are of a severe nature, rooted in trauma, it is a struggle to live through the aftermath of dissolving. This process can hurt the body, more specifically the stress-regulatory system and make the body unfit for anything.

 

going too fast can, indeed, burn people up

We all definitely all have our own paths to follow, but again I still think we are talking about different things. The fire/grace that I am talking about comes with what Jesus would call "the peace that passes all human understanding". Other traditions might call it something like spontaneous perfection. The issues and fears spontaneously release as they come up. Edited September 23, 2016 by Jeff

[Wayfarer]

That's a very circular argument. I cannot know what Lao Tsu or Buddha knew as their philosophies are written by others. Perhaps they weren't Mystics, but certainly most of their followers are. Yes in a way that is true, but in the reality that is being described by LT and B there is no self and there is no other...therefore what awakens to reality and what is deluded from it, is the same One.

 

A mystic in the spiritual tradition believes that it is their feelings/intuition/revelation/inner knowing/heart which is their guide to reality.  A mystic in the traditional sense is one who believes they have had an insight into the Truth and they share that wisdom with others.  It is not something that relies on intuition or feelings, or a conventional wisdom...it actually causes the dropping away of those.  It is a little like my going around stating I want to become a man, when I am one already but no one can convince me of that...then suddenly one day I discover I am that already and all the effort was a waste, in that no matter what I tried, I could not be other than what I am.  The Mystic is the person who experiences the Truth of what they are an in that moment experiences the death of what they thought they were.  Hence in the Bible it says, a man cannot look onto the face of God without dying.  It is the self that dies.

 

The muscle mystic rejects that man can know reality in any sense, that we are a collection of squirting glands-or in the more modern sense part of some quantum illusion.  No we are not a collection of squirting glands.  We BELIEVE that is what we are.  To awaken is to realise that the truth of what we are is that we are also everything we thought we were not...the 'other' and the 'self' is the same No-Thing.  The fact that this is not known, doesn't mean that it isn't so.  However, if we look at rational evidence, we cannot find anything to support that....however what looks and what is looked at is the Same.

 

I don't know if you ascribe to either of these views, or if LT or Buddah did, but their followers do.  People who follow, may not even be interested in the Truth, they may just want a little more peace at difficult times in their lives....as you know I'm sure.   I have experienced this for myself Karl, and I can only say that the conscious thinking mind, the intuition, feelings, thoughts etc have nothing to do with it.   

 

When one begins to question what it is that a thought arrives into, and what it leaves behind when it goes...how that is, there is a look into the right direction.  The reason we cannot see it as such, it because it is already that which we are looking at and we are that in itself.  Nice huh?

[blue eyed snake]

well, if the OP will excuse us this prolonged sidestepping...

 

you surprise me...

 

issues and fears, well it's not for naught that the saying goes: " there are issues in the tissues" Issues really clog up the tissues.

 

think as an easy example of something like a frozen shoulder. Channels totally blocked, but also the physical shoulder totally stiiffened. There is real physical shit in that shoulder, when you start removing the underlying issue ( maybe some like having to have shouldered to much for many years, thereby being stressed) by doing energetic work, the shit will slowly find its way out of the tissue into the bloodstream. For liver and kidneys to be removed from the bloodstream. When you start the path of energy-work when elderly, having gathered a lot of very old and deeprooted issues, having a liver and kidneys that do not function anywhere normal. Well, then it's clear that the body needs time to remove old shit.

 

I think that's the reason people can feel temporarily bad after being with a real teacher, for some people the temporary just takes much longer.

 

and the real awful blocks are lodged in rump, in the organs, when you dissolve them the body becomes flooded with shit, and can have a very hard time to recover from it.

 

With the light from above something else happens, agreed, it can make one feel very nice but unrooted, of experience I know that it can burn too.

Maybe the power of the heavens helps us on the emotional (less dense/more energetic) side? where the power of the earth cleans up the physical body. But that's just something that pops up in my head. Might be a nice topic for another thread.

 

I do not know what happens to issues and fears when you work only with the energy of the heavens. I'm taught that for balance we need both the power of the earth, and the power of the heavens. 

 

 

BES

[Karl]

 

That's a very circular argument. I cannot know what Lao Tsu or Buddha knew as their philosophies are written by others. Perhaps they weren't Mystics, but certainly most of their followers are. Yes in a way that is true, but in the reality that is being described by LT and B there is no self and there is no other...therefore what awakens to reality and what is deluded from it, is the same One.

A mystic in the spiritual tradition believes that it is their feelings/intuition/revelation/inner knowing/heart which is their guide to reality. A mystic in the traditional sense is one who believes they have had an insight into the Truth and they share that wisdom with others. It is not something that relies on intuition or feelings, or a conventional wisdom...it actually causes the dropping away of those. It is a little like my going around stating I want to become a man, when I am one already but no one can convince me of that...then suddenly one day I discover I am that already and all the effort was a waste, in that no matter what I tried, I could not be other than what I am. The Mystic is the person who experiences the Truth of what they are an in that moment experiences the death of what they thought they were. Hence in the Bible it says, a man cannot look onto the face of God without dying. It is the self that dies.

The muscle mystic rejects that man can know reality in any sense, that we are a collection of squirting glands-or in the more modern sense part of some quantum illusion. No we are not a collection of squirting glands. We BELIEVE that is what we are. To awaken is to realise that the truth of what we are is that we are also everything we thought we were not...the 'other' and the 'self' is the same No-Thing. The fact that this is not known, doesn't mean that it isn't so. However, if we look at rational evidence, we cannot find anything to support that....however what looks and what is looked at is the Same.

I don't know if you ascribe to either of these views, or if LT or Buddah did, but their followers do. People who follow, may not even be interested in the Truth, they may just want a little more peace at difficult times in their lives....as you know I'm sure. I have experienced this for myself Karl, and I can only say that the conscious thinking mind, the intuition, feelings, thoughts etc have nothing to do with it.

 

When one begins to question what it is that a thought arrives into, and what it leaves behind when it goes...how that is, there is a look into the right direction. The reason we cannot see it as such, it because it is already that which we are looking at and we are that in itself. Nice huh?

 

There is most definitely a self and that's what you speak from. As to whether one experiences a whole, integrated self, or something akin to the disintegrated multiple reflections as of self trapped between opposing mirrors, then that is another thing entirely.

 

I dispensed with the mirrors and no longer have the disintegrated version of self. That 'mirror' self is an illusion of a kind, but only because there are so many broken reflections that the integrated self is lost within them, but it remains the self even if it is a mere shadow of what is possible. It's a broken/stunted ego that cannot hold on to reality, it is morally disjointed and creates a great deal of internal conflict because it lacks integrity (integrity-integrated, just like calculus). Something disintegrated is differentiated from the whole, the pieces need putting back together (integrated) before the true man appears.

 

I like Rand's words on this, those above are my interpretation in terms of what you might better understand in spiritual terms. Rand is more succinct and gives integrity and honesty equal weight:

 

"Integrity is the recognition of the fact that you cannot fake your consciousness, just as honesty is the recognition of the fact that you cannot fake existence—that man is an indivisible entity, an integrated unit of two attributes: of matter and consciousness, and that he may permit no breach between body and mind, between action and thought, between his life and his convictions—that, like a judge impervious to public opinion, he may not sacrifice his convictions to the wishes of others, be it the whole of mankind shouting pleas or threats against him—that courage and confidence are practical necessities, that courage is the practical form of being true to existence, of being true to truth, and confidence is the practical form of being true to one’s own consciousness."

Edited September 23, 2016 by Karl

[Jeff]

Hi BES,

 

Yes, I think we have moved from the OP and this topic might be better (and interesting) as a new thread. Also, my comments really just started as a spinoff of a Rumi quote, where I added the raging fire song to give perspective of the passion of Rumi for God in his teachings (not a slow burn).

 

But, I should say that I was not just talking about divine (or higher) energies in the above. It would be more like hitting all frequencies at once, or if you prefer earthly energies rising and given more space (and hence the peace/bliss) to work by the divine.

 

Best,

Jeff

[sagebrush]

I have not finished reading but I appreciate the info.

 

I got as far as I am a phat physical photon....and then I have to run chores of life......its Friday night football and the band....

 

the fire is going to have to do something without me.

 

I am so disrespectful it makes me sick....

what is wrong with me?

 

hydrate or die?

 

I will read in the morning.

 

thank you

 

I am sure that I will have something to philosophize....maybe ph.

 

I do not know alacrity. have to look that up now

Edited September 23, 2016 by sagebrush

[Nungali]

Is that really what you believe quantum theory says?

 

Oh no .....   its what 'some quantum illusion'  says   ....   

[Marblehead]

... I'm not a physicist.

 

 

Neither am I but I played one on TV.

[liminal_luke]

Is that really what you believe quantum theory says?

 

Googling quantum lead me to websites for the following companies/products: Quantum Data Storage, Quantum Instruments, Quantum Fuel Systems Technologies, Quantum Sails, Quantum Espresso, Quantum Design ... it goes on and on.  So I think quantum theory must have to do with marketing and making things sound new-fangled and cool and impossibly hip.

 

Which is just about as far from the point of existence as a person could get, if you ask me.  I think the point of existence is to make peace with how uncool we are, how small and prosaic and Newtonian.  To get to the point where we don´t need to puff ourselves up with quantum this or that.  Where we can just be ourselves, nothing special.  

 

And, paradoxically, at the same time, fabulous.

Edited September 23, 2016 by liminal_luke