Feng-English: Discuss The TTC

[Albion]

I'm wondering if anyone here would like to study the Dao de Jing/Tao Te Ching, maybe a couple of times a week?

 

I was thinking that it might be fun, and a way to learn more about the DDJ/TTC.

 

I'm certainly not a sage, but just someone who would like to have some others to study and share with.

 

I was thinking that we might try to tackle maybe a chapter or verse a week, or maybe a chapter or verse twice a week.

 

You can leave a note here, or send me a PM if you think that you might like to do this.

 

Anyway, I hope to hear from someone, and if not, Peace to everyone anyway.

 

Differently Abled Daoist

 

 

 

Added by Admin:  This is the version being used, Feng-English:

 

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html

Edited November 24, 2016 by dawei

[Marblehead]

Well, of course I would enjoy doing so.  I'm always ready to discuss Taoist Philosophy.

[Kar3n]

Of course!

[Wu Ming Jen]

I'm all in!

[rene]

I'd love to join in as I can, if you don't mind unusual ideas. (-:

[Albion]

Well, that's lovely. Hello to everyone!  Thank you all for replying!

 

I feel hung over, after some more destruction of America (oh I'm sorry, I mean't to say "debate"    )

 

Well, if I could get a consensus from each of you as to which is the best time(s) for you.

 

It'd be simply wonderful to have study partners!

 

I'm a bit of a night owl, but really you tell me what works for each of you, and I'd be glad to try to get us a time that works for everyone.

 

Let me tell you what I'm dong right now. It's really pretty simple.

 

I read first of all from Wing-Tsit Chan's TTC and then the version that's easiest for me to understand the TTC by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English, and if I'm still lost to any degree I read Paul J.Lin's TTC with a commentary by Wang Pi (which I believe is the same person as Wang Bi).

 

 But that's not often that I get lost, or simply fail to understand the first two versions of the TTC (but sometimes    ).

 

Please let me know what days and times are best for each of you, and maybe we can start with verse 1/chapter 1, and just go from there, it might interesting if we have a variety of translations, but if we need to discuss that, I'm open just let me know.

 

Thank you all so much for replying! I'm delighted to have some study partners for a change!  'S' Wonderful' as Diana Krall might sing!

 

Peace, and please have a really good day!  D.A.D.

[Marblehead]

Generally for me it is two hours before sunup here in Florida and two hours before sunset.  But we all can jump in any time we get online. 

[Albion]

Perhaps I need to try and clarify here.  I'm NOT talking a 'chat' here, but only of posting to the Dao Bums board here.

 

Just let me know when you guys wanna get started, and we'll go from there. OK?   Thank you, D.A.D.

[Albion]

OK, I'm off till tonight, everyone have a good day!   Peace,  D.A.D.,

Edited September 27, 2016 by DifferentlyAbledDaoist

[rene]

Yay! When you started talking 'available times' I thought ohhhhh.../-:

 

Start anytime, following your lead. (-:

[Marblehead]

Yeah.  Your idea - you lead.  Start anywhere you wish.  We'll just go with the flow and your pointing.

 

 

 

Edit to add:  And if you get bored we'll just go off topic until you are again inspired.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Marblehead

[Albion]

OK, I'm tired tonight, but let's start tomorrow. And whoever wants to post verse 1/chapter 1, feel free. If there's nothing here when I get up tomorrow morning, I'll post verse 1/chapter 1.  Probably along with my comments.

 

I honestly should not have watched that stupid debate last night. I was up till 4 O'Clock in the AM listening to 'Coast to Coast', after that. First time that I've stayed up till 4:00 AM in a very long time!

 

A Peaceful night/day to everyone!  D.A.D.

[rene]

Here's the first four lines of Ch1 (F/E):

 

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.

The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.

 

Imo, this is perfect entry into the ideas in the ttc: It conveys that there are two levels, realms, distinct parts of the whole. (Later in Ch1 it shows how they are also not separate. Ch1 is the first hint re Both, unboundaried, same time.)

 

Comments?

[Jonesboy]

Here's the first four lines of Ch1 (F/E):

 

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.

The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.

 

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

 

To me this is always about being. How can one truly express emptiness.

 

The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

 

If you are trying to give it a description it is not the Tao/ emptiness.

 

The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.

 

All things arise from the Tao.

 

The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.

 

All things are form, energy, the mother, that which arises from the Tao.

[Kar3n]

Here's the first four lines of Ch1 (F/E):

 

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.

The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.

 

Imo, this is perfect entry into the ideas in the ttc: It conveys that there are two levels, realms, distinct parts of the whole. (Later in Ch1 it shows how they are also not separate. Ch1 is the first hint re Both, unboundaried, same time.)

 

Comments?

 

 

Simply stated to me this means to be still and take notice.

[dawei]

Here's the first four lines of Ch1 (F/E):

 

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.

The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.

 

Imo, this is perfect entry into the ideas in the ttc: It conveys that there are two levels, realms, distinct parts of the whole. (Later in Ch1 it shows how they are also not separate. Ch1 is the first hint re Both, unboundaried, same time.)

 

Comments?

 

The first two lines are to me similar to what I shared recently about 'the constancy of Dao vs the transformation of life'.  

 

The next two attempt a subtle link between them that is spelled out more explicitly in DDJ 42.  Here is one link between Dao and Two; Then Two and the 10,000.     In some ways, this is simpler and less controversy than DDJ42 where there are different interpretations of what makes up the "three".

[Marblehead]

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.

The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.

 

 

This is what eventually led me to the conclusion that "Tao" is not a noun (a thing) but rather a verb (a process).  Included in this is that oftentimes we see "Tao" translated as "Way" (a process).

 

Names are only labels we use to define a thing or a concept.  If to say "Tao" is the same thing as saying "Way" then neither words are eternal.

 

What was the process that started the beginning of all beginnings (if there is such a thing)?  Sure, we can say "Tao".  But what have we said when we say "Tao was the beginning of all beginnings"?  Nothing, really.  We might as well have remained silent.

 

And the last line?  The named?  Tao gave birth to One.  So One is the mother of all things.  But even saying this isn't saying anything because we have not defined "One".

 

But it does indicate that the Ten Thousand Things are a subset of One (whatever that is).  Perhaps "One" is also a verb and not a noun?

 

So we see in its very early stage the dualistic concept of wu/yu, Mystery/Manifest, Spiritual/Material.

[Albion]

1 

The Tao that can be told of is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name. 
The Nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth; The Named is the mother of all things. 
Therefore let there always be non-being, so we may see their subtlety, And let there always be being, so we may see their outcome. 
The two are the same, But after they are produced, they have different names. 
They both may be called deep and profound. Deeper and more profound, The door to all subtleties! 
 

This is from Terebess Asia Online collections of the TTC/DDJ.

 

This is from Wing-Tsit Chan.   I'm going to post this, and then type out the Feng/English TTC, is that OK with everyone, please excuse me for being lazy, but it's 6:00 AM, and I have not had Tea yet  (lol).

 

I'll comment after I post the next segment translated by Feng/English.

 

 

"The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

 

The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

 

The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.

 

The named is the mother of ten thousand things.

 

Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.

 

Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.

 

These two spring from the same source but differ in name;

 

     This appears as darkness. 

 

Darkness within darkness.

 

The gate to all mystery.     

 

 

 

 

Chapter/verse 1  Feng/English

 

Here is what occurs to me, and please bear in mind that I'm a night time person, but I'll do my best at approx. 6:15 AM.

 

It seems pretty obvious here (to me) that the Tao that we are speaking about is NOT, nor can it be, "the eternal Tao".

 

So our attempts to try to describe Tao are just that: attempts, and the same goes for "the nameless" (which I take to be similar, if not the same, as "the eternal Tao").

 

Our bumbling attempts to speak about something that is *beyond language* (any language....including Chinese) are just that, attempts.

 

And at the same time (or perhaps a wee bit later lol) we also find out that *the named* "is the mother to the ten thousand things".

 

That's *everything* for us folks!

 

But in the next verse we find out if we remain "desireless", we can see the mystery.

 

This is something very substantial in my mind. The mystery seems here in this verse, to be "a doorway" to us "seeing" (*understanding* the Tao).  I COULD be wrong here, but I don't think so.

 

I don't know about you guys, but I have quite a bit of "desire".  I could name all of them, but if you go back and read some of my earlier posts, at least two of them (earlier posts) express, one of my Heart's desires.

 

Maybe only when I work out those desires [ and some other stuff] (or at least THAT desire) will that Heart place be fulfilled.

 

(Please excuse me for being a bloody romantic here!)

 

But then ole Laozi springs on us that desireless, and desiring, "spring from the SAME source" but clearly, they differ in name.

 

"This appears as darkness". I'm gonna spring back here on some old knowledge (perhaps useless, but perhaps NOT).

 

Laozi gets into this much further, in a future verse, but perhaps darkness is a face of Something, or Someone.

 

He (Laozi) further states:   "Darkness within darkness.

 

The gate to all mystery."  

 

THE "gate" to ALL mystery.

 

I believe that I know what or whom (Whom), he (Laozi)  means.

 

But let's save this for the future (which we of course believe that there will always be plenty of........).

 

This is my best shot at verse 1.

 

Please don't take anything that I might say here as real knowledge, it's just my speculations, on the Great Mystery.

 

And that's ALL!   ;-)

 

Peace in this day, and may our future bring Peace.  Differently Abled Daoist

Edited September 28, 2016 by DifferentlyAbledDaoist

[rene]

Slight tangent: VERY cool replies that show the differences in what resonates for each of us: interpretative, personal, scholastic, contemplative, excited, both.

 

Maybe the magic of the ttc is that it brings to words what is already there, and nameless, in us all. (-:

 

/end tangent

[Albion]

My Friends in Dao,

 

  I've got to go out and about tomorrow morning, but I'll post my entry on Chapter/Verse 2 on the TTC, sometime after noon. OK?

 

I thought about doing it tonight, but I'll wait until tomorrow after noon.  Thanks for bearing with me!  D.A.D.

[rene]

Glad you waited, D.A.D., not quite done with Ch1. To me, from my perspective of "Both", the two lines about desires are the most important in the whole ttc - for understanding how to live life, in balance.

 

It is desire - that gives us momentum, the impetus for improvement, in our lives and others'. The desire for clean fresh water is what prompted me to dig a well. The desire to make others comfortable is why I spend energy doing just that. The desire to stay alive is why I make the choices I do. Having desires is natural and part of the physical, the manifest,... and is one half of the whole.

 

The other half, the spiritual, the mystery, is that wordless aspect we all recognize as also part of who we are...yes?

 

Some traditions feel that the more one can turn his/her back on the manifest - the more one will find/understand the mystery. I disagree with that idea.

 

From my perspective, denying one half of the whole takes one farther from understanding the whole. Finding the spiritual within the physical, knowing the mystery within the manifest, brings the balance. The applications of this are endless.

 

They arise together, unboundaried, mystery & manifest, there is no gate back to the source, for none is needed. (-:

 

Perpetual imo applied, all thoughts welcome.

[Marblehead]

Nice to see you haven't given up on the "mutual arising" concept.

 

Sure, reduce desires in order to find harmony (balance) between the mystery and the manifest.

 

As you pointed out, many of our desires lead us toward being able to live a better life.

[Jonesboy]

Glad you waited, D.A.D., not quite done with Ch1. To me, from my perspective of "Both", the two lines about desires are the most important in the whole ttc - for understanding how to live life, in balance.

 

It is desire - that gives us momentum, the impetus for improvement, in our lives and others'. The desire for clean fresh water is what prompted me to dig a well. The desire to make others comfortable is why I spend energy doing just that. The desire to stay alive is why I make the choices I do. Having desires is natural and part of the physical, the manifest,... and is one half of the whole.

 

The other half, the spiritual, the mystery, is that wordless aspect we all recognize as also part of who we are...yes?

 

Some traditions feel that the more one can turn his/her back on the manifest - the more one will find/understand the mystery. I disagree with that idea.

 

From my perspective, denying one half of the whole takes one farther from understanding the whole. Finding the spiritual within the physical, knowing the mystery within the manifest, brings the balance. The applications of this are endless.

 

They arise together, unboundaried, mystery & manifest, there is no gate back to the source, for none is needed. (-:

 

Perpetual imo applied, all thoughts welcome.

What two lines are you referring to that talk about desire?

[Albion]

I had some stuff that I needed to do this morning, but I decided to postpone it.

 

Maybe I should change my screen name to 'Romantic Quester' (or how about 'Romantic Fool'?   lol).

 

You know Rene, I think that those people who choose to depart from life, and choose intentionally to set themselves apart in a monastery or deep in the mountains, if that works for them, to turn away from life, and *only* concentrate on their spiritual growth, well and good.

 

And let me be clear here, I'm NOT saying that YOU are like that. Let's get clear about that. OK?

 

No one Loves wilderness more then ME. Henry David Thoreau said: "In Wilderness, lies the preservation of the world".

 

Chief Joseph ('Rolling Thunder in the Mountains') of the Nez Perce Tribe said: "The Earth and myself, are of One Mind" (my caps), and I agree with him too.

 

I wholeheartedly AGREE.

 

If I wasn't in this wheelchair, and being 'abled differently', I would likely BE where you are, in the mountains somewhere out West, but I could not find a way to break out of the workforce, until I fell off of a ladder.  Sad but true.

 

But you (Rene) said:  "Some traditions feel that the more one can turn his/her back on the manifest - the more one will find/understand the mystery. I disagree with that idea."

 

Yes, so do *I*.

 

In a way, I live like a monk.

 

But that does NOT mean, that that is my WISH.

 

There's a lot of talk on here, on Dao Bums, about being celibate and sexless, show me just one place where the Laozi speaks *plainly* to either of those ideas.

 

And don't get me wrong, if someone thinks that living like this, will bring them closer to the Dao, be my guest. But I've read the TTC/DDJ for quite a few years now, and I simply do NOT see this in the text of the Laozi. 

 

We are NOT Buddhist Monks, nor are we Roman Catholic Priest's. At least I'm not, and I don't think that any of the other's involved in this discussion here, are either.

 

So, I've wandered away from the TTC, if we want to discuss these ideas some more, I'm *good*.

 

I just want *all of us* to 'guide' this discussion. Not just ME.

 

So let me know through the day, as we go along, where we are, and if we are ready to talk about verse/chapter 2.

 

And then, we'll do it! OK?

 

Peace to all of you,  D.A.D.

[rene]

What two lines are you referring to that talk about desire?

These two:

 

Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.

Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.