Feng-English: Discuss The TTC

[Marblehead]

I admit I look at this from a Buddhist perspective, yet I hope this helps with the topic of desire and good, bad, tall and short.

 

I feel the need to speak to this.  Oftentimes I have objected when Buddhist concepts were injected into discussions of Taoism.  In this thread I see no problem with that happening.  This exercise is an attempt toward understanding.  Supplemental support would enhance understanding.

[rene]

Ch2 F/E (Feng/English)

Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness.

All can know good as good only because there is evil.

 

Therefore having and not having arise together.

Difficult and easy complement each other.

Long and short contrast each other:

High and low rest upon each other;

Voice and sound harmonize each other;

Front and back follow one another.

To me, this is intended to reinforce the ideas in Ch1, for those who need more - to overcome 'either/or' mindset.

 

Therefore the sage goes about doing nothing, teaching no-talking.

The ten thousand things rise and fall without cease,

Creating, yet not possessing.

Working, yet not taking credit.

Work is done, then forgotten.

Therefore it lasts forever.

...and this hints at the view. (-:

[Marblehead]

It is near impossible to criticize a creator who takes no claim for any creation.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Marblehead

[rene]

I feel the need to speak to this. Oftentimes I have objected when Buddhist concepts were injected into discussions of Taoism. In this thread I see no problem with that happening. This exercise is an attempt toward understanding. Supplemental support would enhance understanding.

I agree...as long as we realize that not everyone (me) is familiar with Buddhist terminology and less so the concepts.

[rene]

What is left? Tao. But it is beyond all things so how could it be a thing?

 

In the same way it could be a verb.

 

 

Actually, that was my initial understanding when I began feeling a little more comfortable with the philosophy. Credit (or blame) goes to Henricks because of the way he uses "Tao" and "Way". Same original word, here a noun, there a verb.

 

Both.

 

Actually, it's even worse. Tao is:

 

This,

That,

Not-this, and,

Not-that

 

All at the same time. :lol:

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

Seems I've heard that before.  Hehehe.

[Wu Ming Jen]

This,
That,
Not-this, and,
Not-that

 

​Non conceptual event unfolding, a beautiful symphony in tune,  If we could only carry a note to heaven and earth. Who can care for all things without caring as the earth does continuously, without break? who can. show kindness to all things without being kind as heaven does?

 

We have a lot to live up to to even come close to who we really are as humanity (Jen) we are nature, not separate.

 

We should act as the host not the guest. We are responsible for our guest and each other to insure all have a great time, play, survive. 

 

We have an incredible playground. Why we wish to destroy  it and each other is just psychological damage, a form of  mental illness. We need to heal that.

[Jonesboy]

I agree...as long as we realize that not everyone (me) is familiar with Buddhist terminology and less so the concepts.

I will keep it to a minimum. Just trying to add some understanding how good and evil and the like arise from the mind.

[Albion]

The San Francisco Peaks right now at sundown (in real time).

 

http://www.flagstaffarizona.org/webcam/

[Albion]

Friends in Dao,

 

 It'll be late tomorrow afternoon when I can post again. If someone else wants to start on verse/chapter 3, feel free to do that, it'll probably around 5:00 PM (CST) when I get home and situated tomorrow.

 

I hope that everyone has a really great night, a night of sweet dreams, and Peace.

 

In Dao,   Differently Abled Daoist

[rene]

I will keep it to a minimum. Just trying to add some understanding how good and evil and the like arise from the mind.

(-: Jonesboy All your relevant and insightful contributions are most welcome and I'm glad you dont expect me to know what you're talking about. Cheers!

[rene]

This,

That,

Not-this, and,

Not-that

 

​Non conceptual event unfolding, a beautiful symphony in tune, If we could only carry a note to heaven and earth. Who can care for all things without caring as the earth does continuously, without break? who can. show kindness to all things without being kind as heaven does?

 

We have a lot to live up to to even come close to who we really are as humanity (Jen) we are nature, not separate.

 

We should act as the host not the guest. We are responsible for our guest and each other to insure all have a great time, play, survive.

 

We have an incredible playground. Why we wish to destroy it and each other is just psychological damage, a form of mental illness. We need to heal that.

What a lovely post (-:

[sagebrush]

I began thinking about this today...

 

I read a quote from Aristotle. I think most of mankind would recognize him as one of the great thinkers in history.

 

I know little of who he is or what he is known for....I just took it in that he is one of the great philosophers...etc....

 

then I began to wonder about group dynamics.....anywhere. this would be unlimited in inquiry I am sure.

 

then I begin to think that it is beneficial to take in other peoples view points...called sharing...

then I went back to but what if it is important that I spent time alone figuring out what I think about the tao te ching.

without trying to compound my problems further.....

part of me wants to be here and another part is like a cat and I do not need things...like a dog would.

very simple but I needed to put it in simple terms.

maybe I needed to stay because it is part of what is needed.

or maybe all of it is just the perpetual unsettledness.

I am happy that I bought a pocket sized copy last night.

It is probably 4"x3' and the  smallest one available.

.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Interesting, Aristotle philosophy represents liner and rational thinking as the source of knowledge. Lao Tzu continuously debunks this type of philosophy transcending mind its self.

 

​Aristotle represents absolute fragment reality (like absolute darkness exists) fragments are like thinking the kidneys have this function and are not related to the other organs

 

Lao Tzu represents polar complete reality.  

 

Greek is two opposing camps that are not related to each other.That makes friction that eventually runs out of power. This is not eternal understanding.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Albion]

My Friends in Dao,

 

  I've been out shopping all afternoon. And I don't know if any of you know what Fibromyalgia is, but I've got a pretty wicked case of it.

 

So, let's do chapter 3, tomorrow, if none of you mind.

 

And we can get back to discovering what Laozi has to say to us in verse/chapter 3.

 

How's that?  If anyone wants to go ahead and dig into chapter/verse 3, then I'll join you all in the morning. OK?

 

Thanks for your understanding, and I really appreciate all that we've done so far.

 

And I look forward to verse/chapter 3.

 

So, I'll see you all tomorrow.

 

Thanks,  Differently Abled Daoist

[sagebrush]

so you think Aristotle had no eternal understanding because he was stymied by his linear logical mind? seriously?

how would we really know what his absolute understandings were? or his life experiences?

 

so please give me a rough list of five-ten philosophers from anywhere on the globe from any school of thought who exemplify eternal understanding...not including Lao Tzu.....or ramana maharshi...etc......jesus....

 

I will have to defer to rene here if it is ok to speil out inside the post as such???

I have enough trouble as it is and working at unnecessary suffering.

[sagebrush]

....and the kidneys and the functions of other organs.....not sure I see what you are pointing out.

 

all systems of the body are connected...by my school of thought. kidneys purify in my simple understanding--sure they do more than that one function...but in general....

 

if you want to get specific I can circumcise a gnat in my thinking! and I am just being funny....I will leave no stone unturned!

and I might turn the same one 10000k times.

 

please do not think I think you gnatly.

 

the quote I had from Aristotle from a tea bag was something about nature and...

hell I will go get it and .....

 

"in all things of nature, there is something of the marvelous.....

 

so this greek man apparently enjoyed nature.....and the tea bag company is quoting Aristotle on their tea bag string holder....Traditional Medicinals

 

noticed as well that you put past tense on aristotle

and present tense on lao Tzu....not being picky just wondering....

so you think Aristotle is dead and not eternal and LT is eternal.

 

these are fairly complex topics.

Edited October 1, 2016 by sagebrush

[rene]

so you think Aristotle had no eternal understanding because he was stymied by his linear logical mind? seriously?

how would we really know what his absolute understandings were? or his life experiences?

 

so please give me a rough list of five-ten philosophers from anywhere on the globe from any school of thought who exemplify eternal understanding...not including Lao Tzu.....or ramana maharshi...etc......jesus....

 

I will have to defer to rene here if it is ok to speil out inside the post as such???

I have enough trouble as it is and working at unnecessary suffering.

sagebrush, hi.

 

As you are deferring to me - I'd like to request that you not wander so far off the topic of the thread, including your recent posts above.

 

Others' posts so far have been either about the possible meanings of the words in the ttc - or about how the words in the Chapters play out in their lives. If you could follow suit, for this thread, it would be most appreciated. (-:

 

I'm glad you figured out how to start your own threads - they have been interesting to read!

 

Warm regards

[rene]

Here is (Feng/English) Ch3, for those who are finished with 1 & 2.

 

Not exalting the gifted prevents quarreling.

Not collecting treasures prevents stealing.

Not seeing desirable things prevents confusion of the heart.

 

The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies, by weakening ambitions and strengthening bones.

If men lack knowledge and desire, then clever people will not try to interfere.

If nothing is done, then all will be well.

 

 

I enjoy how the first part of the Chapters (so far) present the idea(s) - and the second part shows some applications. (-:

.

.

Edit: typo

Edited October 1, 2016 by rene

[Stosh]

Hi, before yall rush along to the next chapter , Id just like to insert 2¢ I think its important to remember ,or just consider ANd keep in mind ,, the ol phrase ,about heaven and earth " so going" similarly.

This means that one can consider the behaviors of the realms as operating according to the same theme! the One can be either , a symbol for the big universe, a model for a society , a descriptor of a mind. It may also be all of them. and It might not be any of those Simultaneously!

It really just depends on how youre looking at the relationships.

So, often ,I think, very often, ,,...,,, pardon my grammar,, the sentiments these dudes presented for us are really! difficult to word... ..the exact translations are EXPRessly Un important, other than to strike a chord of a particular persons understanding.

From a state of non differentiation we progress to a process which does exactly that, differentiate according to imagined merits as they relate to our own perspective.

Undifferentiated ,without distinctions or parameters, there is no good or bad, up down cold hot etc.

I see folks immediately jump away from that very significant origin of undifferentiation, and disagree respectfully understanding why its done, yet disagreeing anyway. Ones opinions are not the undifferentiated holistic unity of The the tao, the soul,or merit of mankind. One is already departed from the objectivity of the one, and not in perfect harmony with the " Greater Tao" when uttering the first word, having the first judgement ,feeling the first motivation.

Again , sorry for my horrible wording .

[Marblehead]

Point made Stosh.  There is the "what is"; all else is subjective.  That's where we find dualities. 

[Marblehead]

So on to Chapter 3 we go.

 

First three line; the concepts (emotions) of jealousy and envy:  and their prevention.  

 

Emptying the heart I see as emptying the mind of desires,

Stuffing the belly I see as being comfortable and satisfied with what one has.  (Results in a strong body with reserve energy.)

 

Line 5 is troublesome for me.  There will always be clever people trying to interfere.  If we lack knowledge we will be easily taken advantage of.  Sure, we should reduce our desires but we should be knowledgeable of those who can't or won't.

 

Line 6 is problematic.  Many see that as to just sit on your ass and vegetate.  That's not what it means.  The concept is to not do beyond what is necessary - to not force things if at all possible.

[Stosh]

Point made Stosh. There is the "what is"; all else is subjective. That's where we find dualities.

 

Thanks for trivializing my post. My error is the same as always.I posted it. In doing so, I made it manifest, gave the idea form . Leaving it unsaid, theres no possibility of agreement ,or objection.

So if I was paying attention to ch 1 , and following the lead of it, I would be in harmony.

Desiring communication, desiring the accumulation of the 10000 factoids, one moves on. This I do get, since its just the human condition to have the desires and motivations,

Edited October 1, 2016 by Stosh

[rene]

Hi, before yall rush along to the next chapter , Id just like to insert 2¢ I think its important to remember ,or just consider ANd keep in mind ,, the ol phrase ,about heaven and earth " so going" similarly.

This means that one can consider the behaviors of the realms as operating according to the same theme! the One can be either , a symbol for the big universe, a model for a society , a descriptor of a mind. It may also be all of them. and It might not be any of those Simultaneously!

It really just depends on how youre looking at the relationships.

So, often ,I think, very often, ,,...,,, pardon my grammar,, the sentiments these dudes presented for us are really! difficult to word... ..the exact translations are EXPRessly Un important, other than to strike a chord of a particular persons understanding.

From a state of non differentiation we progress to a process which does exactly that, differentiate according to imagined merits as they relate to our own perspective.

Undifferentiated ,without distinctions or parameters, there is no good or bad, up down cold hot etc.

I see folks immediately jump away from that very significant origin of undifferentiation, and disagree respectfully understanding why its done, yet disagreeing anyway. Ones opinions are not the undifferentiated holistic unity of The the tao, the soul,or merit of mankind. One is already departed from the objectivity of the one, and not in perfect harmony with the " Greater Tao" when uttering the first word, having the first judgement ,feeling the first motivation.

Again , sorry for my horrible wording .

Stosh, yes yes yes and yes. Especially this:

..the exact translations are EXPRessly Un important, other than to strike a chord of a particular persons understanding.

From a state of non differentiation we progress to a process which does exactly that, differentiate according to imagined merits as they relate to our own perspective.

 

Your words worked just fine. Sometimes it is, as above so below. Heh. Warm regards (-:

[Jonesboy]

Not exalting the gifted prevents quarreling.

Not collecting treasures prevents stealing.

Not seeing desirable things prevents confusion of the heart.

 

Desiring things or states of being, exalting people be they musicians, actors, masters of ones field of study creates for something outside of ones self. It has the effect of creating conflict and one dreaming about the future and how ones life could be better if only they had this thing or that thing..

 

The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies, by weakening ambitions and strengthening bones.

 

The wise rule by teaching that desire leads to conflict within and without. The wise shows one the way to true happiness.

 

If men lack knowledge and desire, then clever people will not try to interfere.

 

When one is caught up in the local mind with desire and ambition, the clever have learned to manipulate, so let go of such things.

 

If nothing is done, then all will be well.

 

When one is truly present, outside of the local mind everything is as it should be.

 

.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Jonesboy