Feng-English: Discuss The TTC

[rene]

To me, Ch3 is a study in extremes. First half extreme yang-ish choices, second half extreme yin-ish choices. Both extremes to be avoided in real life, imo.

[Marblehead]

Thanks for trivializing my post.

My intention was not to trivialize but rather to abridge, in agreement, of what you said.

[Albion]

"If men lack knowledge and desire, then clever people will not try to interfere."

 

I always liked the wording "cunning" in place of 'clever'.

But I also agreed to use one translation so I won't back off of that promise. Just a thought below.

 

Don't we ALL know (or have known) people like THIS? 

 

Who try to push their will or agenda by being clever, or cunning?

 

Yes, I think so.

 

Not exalting the gifted prevents quarreling.
Not collecting treasures prevents stealing.
Not seeing desirable things prevents confusion of the heart.

Desiring things or states of being, exalting people be they musicians, actors, masters of ones field of study creates for something outside of ones self. It has the effect of creating conflict and one dreaming about the future and how ones life could be better if only they had this thing or that thing..

The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies, by weakening ambitions and strengthening bones.

The wise rule by teaching that desire leads to conflict within and without. The wise shows one the way to true happiness.

If men lack knowledge and desire, then clever people will not try to interfere.

When one is caught up in the local mind with desire and ambition, the clever have learned to manipulate, so let go of such things.

If nothing is done, then all will be well.

When one is truly present, outside of the local mind everything is as it should be.

.

Dear Jonesboy,

 

  I liked what you said, which I very much agree with.

 

I especially like "the local mind" saying.

 

I'm not sure that I've heard that one before.

 

But that's a very good way to put it.

 

Thanks for that!

 

Peace, Differently Abled Daoist

Edited October 1, 2016 by DifferentlyAbledDaoist

[Albion]

Thanks to you guys going on without me last night. Sometimes a good night's sleep makes everything better!

 

I appreciate each of your comments, and I especially appreciate Rene stepping in to halt a conversation that did/does not belong here.  Thanks for that Rene.

 

You are a good friend!   Peace, D.A.D.

[Stosh]

My intention was not to trivialize but rather to abridge, in agreement, of what you said.

I understand that, I just didnt want it so abridged.No biggie.

[rene]

Thanks to you guys going on without me last night. Sometimes a good night's sleep makes everything better!

 

I appreciate each of your comments, and I especially appreciate Rene stepping in to halt a conversation that did/does not belong here. Thanks for that Rene.

 

You are a good friend! Peace, D.A.D.

You are welcome, D.A.D., and I'm glad you got some sleep!

 

My doing so plays into the last line of Ch3, eh? Using Jonesboy's words:

 

If nothing is done, then all will be well.

 

When one is truly present, outside of the local mind everything is as it should be.

If I had done nothing, all is still good (from the larger view) and doing something helped (from the local view). For me, both the local mind and non-local mind are present. What could happen that would not be okay? (-:

[Stosh]

The man of little knowlege, is also the man who is not likely to interfere, and therefore cunning. The trap is tripped, when one one makes a differentiation based on imagined dualistic style virtue.

 

 

big de ja vous!

Edited October 1, 2016 by Stosh

[rene]

Stosh, agree - and that's one of the extremes pointed at, imo.

.

Edited October 1, 2016 by rene

[Albion]

The man of little knowlege, is also the man who is not likely to interfere, and therefore cunning. The trap is tripped, when one one makes a differentiation based on imagined dualistic style virtue.

 

 

big de ja vous!

 

Yes, Stosh I totally agree with you here.

 

Very well said!   peace,  D.A.D.

[Stosh]

Stosh, agree - and that's one of the extremes pointed at, imo.

.

I didnt, but can now see it that way.

[silent thunder]

There are several chapters of the TTC that bring dissonance to me... and ch3 is one of them.  It is to me decidedly odd.

 

They require spin to be assimilated into a frame of perspective for me to be comfortable with them, but this is more likely to be my perspective being vastly different from that which created the verse, not the fault of the verse.  Though, they do stand out from the rest in tone, subject and focus and remain odd, unpalatable. 

 

I can't shake the suspicion after years of reading and sifting these words, that said chapters, may not have always been included in the cannon, or perhaps not in their original form.  That they may have been altered for the purpose of shifting them toward a political ruler/subject format.  Ah well... I'm thoroughly enjoying this study and that's all I had to add.  It's always been there for me with some of these verses...

[Jonesboy]

My doing so plays into the last line of Ch3, eh? Using Jonesboy's words:

 

 

If I had done nothing, all is still good (from the larger view) and doing something helped (from the local view). For me, both the local mind and non-local mind are present. What could happen that would not be okay? (-:

The nothing has more to do with ones being. It isn't about helping others or not it is more about why.

 

Do you help or give for the sake of giving or is it to change a thing?

 

For instance, let's say a family member comes to you and is really desperate. The tell you they need some money for whatever reason. You give them the money and later find out they used it for a different purpose.

 

If you become upset you are in local mind, your desires for the use of that money wasn't for what you wanted.

 

True giving comes from the giving not from the result or expectation. So the do nothing is more about ones state of mind/being where one does not get caught up in the desire/thoughts...they just flow through non attaching so that true giving from the heart comes to be.

[liminal_luke]

Noun or verb?  I dao know.  

 

Perhaps this very question points to the necessarily slippery ambiguous nature of the Tao; maybe the ability to hold neither-this-nor-that consciousness in mind without grasping for something that "may be spoken" is precisely the point.

 

ps pease forgive my tardiness in going back to the beginning

[Stosh]

Noun or verb? I dao know.

 

Perhaps this very question points to the necessarily slippery ambiguous nature of the Tao; maybe the ability to hold neither-this-nor-that consciousness in mind without grasping for something that "may be spoken" is precisely the point.

 

ps pease forgive my tardiness in going back to the beginning

In the way that a performance, a life, a progression could reasonably be considered a noun or verb ... thing.. one might stress an aspect of that idea more than another without error. So I for one agree , that the author was not feeling he or she, would let themselves be constrained in what they were conveying by conventional grammatical habit, since the Subject spoken of didnt fit either.

 

But I wont ever forgive you,'...'..............' since I cant, since you are faultless, and Im not even the host.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

What we dont own we cant give, and whats outside our purview isnt ours to control anyway.

That taken into consideration, you can only attempt to bring about how you want things to be, aware thatwhat you attempt may not go as you would have it.

Aware of that, it would be stupid to get bent out of shape about results due to your own actions.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Stosh

[Wu Ming Jen]

Not exalting the gifted prevents quarreling.

"A great musician may not be able to build a house Find the gift within ones self and not other" (Who is better superman or Bruce lee, let the quarreling begin)

Not collecting treasures prevents stealing.

"Know when one has enough"

Not seeing desirable things prevents confusion of the heart.

" to desire thing not attainable is more destructive then living without"

The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies, by weakening ambitions and strengthening bones.

"Empty your heart of desire, eat well or being full eliminates uneasiness, ambition is less important then a healthy body without health we can not enjoy great riches"

If men lack knowledge and desire, then clever people will not try to interfere.

"Clever people means to scheme and contrive to attain something that is not truly theirs. If we hide our light we don't need to worry about others interfering".

If nothing is done, then all will be well.

"Wu wei doing without contriving or scheming or to interfere in things to make it better"  

 

​The best part of the Tao Te Ching is that we can choose a different topic altogether to describe meaning using the same principles.

My Teacher once said if one thinks Tao is sweet and another thinks tao is bitter both are right.

[rene]

For instance, let's say a family member comes to you and is really desperate. The tell you they need some money for whatever reason. You give them the money and later find out they used it for a different purpose.

 

If you become upset you are in local mind, your desires for the use of that money wasn't for what you wanted...

In your example - I might not like the outcome (local mind) but it wouldn't upset me. For me, prefering this over that has little to do with me not being ok with whatever comes, heh. Who am I to know if this or that is a better outcome? (-:

[Stosh]

The vinegar tasters may all be concluded incorrect or correct, but if we ignore the verdicts of correctness as being moot, one presumably enjoys the vinegar that the others do not. And to this individual, bitter vinegar sounds pretty nasty.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Stosh

[rene]

I can't shake the suspicion after years of reading and sifting these words, that said chapters, may not have always been included in the cannon, or perhaps not in their original form. That they may have been altered for the purpose of shifting them toward a political ruler/subject format...

The first alteration was changing the title from The Laozi to TaoTeChing. I yield to dawei and others to share the reasoning for that, heh.

[Marblehead]

And then Henricks and others renamed it the Te-Tao Ching.

 

But I don't worry about such matters.

[Stosh]

I looked around and it doesnt seem like it ever Had a real title. I figure that it Could have been a text in a much larger canon. Laozi, im told is basically an honorific... come to think of it, Im not sure the Bible has a real title either.

[flowing hands]

I thought I would add a point to your discussion here and then butt out. One has to remember Li Erh did not give his 'thoughts' any title and his thoughts he wrote numbered far in excess of the 81 that are generally accepted as his work. If you remember the Chinese are very aware of the magic of numbers. 81 is a magic number (9x9). Many Kung Fu (certainly not all, some patterns I have been taught numbered in excess of 160 moves long) patterns were designed to be 108 (9x12) moves long and were generally broken up into direction, element and yin and yang moves. These though may be heavily disguised. Unlike the Bible Li Erh's words are not anecdotal. Li Erh was beyond wanting fame and adoration for his work and it is exactly this why western scholars see his thoughts as being from many different authors, as he literally gave his thoughts away.

 

Enough from me, I do look in now and again to see of there is any interesting topics!

[Stosh]

Oh dont drift away, I havent seen your posts much, and theyre always food for curious thought.

[Marblehead]

Hi Flowing Hands,

 

Nice hearing from you.  Butt in any time.  I'm not into numbers so I will leave that alone.

 

But yes, I'm sure it was put together in the 81 chapters for that purpose.

 

Until I have reason to think otherwise I will hold to the thought that there were many "Chapters".  Who knows how many?

[rene]

I thought I would add a point to your discussion here and then butt out. One has to remember Li Erh did not give his 'thoughts' any title and his thoughts he wrote numbered far in excess of the 81 that are generally accepted as his work. If you remember the Chinese are very aware of the magic of numbers. 81 is a magic number (9x9). Many Kung Fu (certainly not all, some patterns I have been taught numbered in excess of 160 moves long) patterns were designed to be 108 (9x12) moves long and were generally broken up into direction, element and yin and yang moves. These though may be heavily disguised. Unlike the Bible Li Erh's words are not anecdotal. Li Erh was beyond wanting fame and adoration for his work and it is exactly this why western scholars see his thoughts as being from many different authors, as he literally gave his thoughts away.

 

Enough from me, I do look in now and again to see of there is any interesting topics!

"Li Erh did not give his 'thoughts' any title and his thoughts he wrote numbered far in excess of the 81 that are generally accepted as his work."

 

Where can we find the numerous other 'thoughts' that Li Ehr wrote (whether generlly accepted or not)? Your reference sources, please. Thanks! (-: