Feng-English: Discuss The TTC

[flowing hands]

Hi Rene

 

Sorry there aren't any and it is only people who are the followers of Lei Erh in a mediumship way may have access to these!

[blue eyed snake]

Hi Rene

 

Sorry there aren't any and it is only people who are the followers of Lei Erh in a mediumship way may have access to these!

 

Hi Flowing Hands,

some time ago I tried to visit your website but get the message: this website is not available.

 

is the problem with my browser or with your website?

[Marblehead]

Hi Flowing Hands,

some time ago I tried to visit your website but get the message: this website is not available.

 

is the problem with my browser or with your website?

He shut it down for a while.  He said he may open it again.  I have no idea when though.

[flowing hands]

Hi BES

 

the whole reason for my website was to achieve an end; a difficult task I'll give it that, but I could see that no movement was happening and not reaching and affecting the people I really needed to so when it came time to renew it, I didn't. There is nothing more I can do. A lot of Daoists don't believe in what I say, so how can I expect politicians, religious madman and the like to have any belief?

[dawei]

Hi BES

 

the whole reason for my website was to achieve an end; a difficult task I'll give it that, but I could see that no movement was happening and not reaching and affecting the people I really needed to so when it came time to renew it, I didn't. There is nothing more I can do. A lot of Daoists don't believe in what I say, so how can I expect politicians, religious madman and the like to have any belief?

 

Hi SFH,

 

Nice to see you come around.    You, as a member, have a right to a PPD where folks control the content and posting, although it is not accessible by the internet bots if you wanted exposure publicly.   

[words]

Hello everyone. this topic is the reason I've created an account here. I've stumbled upon this community by chance and then browsing through it, this topic caught my interest. I can't say why as I am a total newbie to taoism and I am not at all familiar with it's scriptures, but here I am. 

 

I've felt like giving this disclaimer so you'll understand why my terminology or maybe even over all way of looking at it might look different than yours. I'm a fresh eye on this particular text and at the same time (to me) this text is speaking of the same truth all texts (and everything) point to.

 

I've read all of the above interpretations and they all bring something to the study table. I want to add what reading the text evokes in me, besides what has been already said.

 

Not exalting the gifted prevents quarreling

 

I see the 'obvious' interpretation of exalting creating some sort of hierarchy and hierarchy creating aim points and thus bringing about quarreling, to continuously redefine positions. Like in a wolves family or like all the politics going on behind scenes in arts, science and every field one can think of, including the spirituality scene.

 

Besides that one, the message I personally (as in for my own good) get from it is about exalting the (perceived) inner gifted. Something like..if I put my inner wise/smart/talented/whatever on a pedestal, I'll tend to talk more and listen less, show more and observe less. Feeling wise/smart/talented/whatever feels good and safe, so there will be a natural tendency to keep it in place. That often leads to disagreement with anything that questions it, which is perceived as a threat.

 

Not collecting treasures prevents stealing 

 

Quite logic. Besides the logical and clear message, again, i find something in it for me. Here I hear 'stealing' as appropriating something (more like concepts, ideas, traits, etc than material things) that doesn't really belong, taking something that is not rooted in/the result of one's experience, exploration and understanding, and adding it over one's self, thus clouding the self.  Something like the risk of collecting (metaphorical) treasures is dishonesty towards one's self. Collecting treasures is an outwards drive, away from the self and (metaphorically) stealing leads to building a 'false version' of self.

 

This ^ ties in with the next verse

 

Not seeing desirable things prevents confusion of the heart.

 

I see here the desirable things as being the above treasures. Be it material, or an experience, or an understanding or a state, or whatever, if one sees it, it's outside one's (core/true) self and it drags the heart away from one's self, thus confusing it. (I understand that ultimately there's no outside, but...language).

 

The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies, by weakening ambitions and strengthening bones.

 

Emptying the heart I see as not 'stocking up' in the heart. i perceive the heart more like a channel than an archive, so emptying it is keeping it open and clear, making space for what is here now in every now.

 

Stuffing bellies didn't make me think of eating eating, it made me think of hara and hara as a reservoir to be fed and nurtured. 

 

In this context, weakening ambitions vs strengthening bones, made me think of curbing the rush to see the house built and taking the time to prepare the ground and have a solid foundation, upon which the house will grow. 

 

If men lack knowledge and desire, then clever people will not try to interfere.

 

tough one, this verse. i think is tough because of the constrictions and at the same time versatility of language. I can't really interpret it in a general way, I'll just say that to me, the image of the mind trying to stay in the driver's seat came to mind when I've read it. I wouldn't try driving unless I'd think I know how to, no? So in a way, I see here 'men' and 'clever people' as being the same people, with the clever people being men's idea about themselves. I don't know if you've ever felt that you (your mind, thinking process, perpetual analyzing) are getting in your own way. I did/do and this verse evokes exactly that sense in me. (the people reading the secret and attempting to manipulate their lives based on that knowledge also briefly flew through my mind and i found it funny)

 

If nothing is done, then all will be well

 

to me this refers more to taking credit for doing, rather than simply doing. everything will be done either way, but taking credit goes hand in hand with taking blame, the idea of doing right vs. doing wrong, what ifs and all that jazz. 

 

I'll learn to write shorter posts. in time. it's just that this is - weirdly and suddenly (because...out of nowhere) - interesting and exciting to me right now.

[Marblehead]

Well words, I think you did quite well with your understanding of the chapter.

 

The basic argument was against Confucian ideals.  That would be counter to living naturally.

 

Nice to see you getting involved in the discussions.

[Jonesboy]

Does anyone have the next chapter?

[Marblehead]

Does anyone have the next chapter?

 

We did a study a while back.  Look in the sub-forum:  Daoist Textual Studies - Daodejing

 

Please, everyone, feel free to revive any of the chapters in that study for further discussion.

[words]

Ha! I haven't looked at the date of the last post. The conversation seemed to be flowing day after day, so I didn't realize I've bumped a dormant topic. 

 

but oh boy, did i have an extra long coffee with that chapter....and now going from being plenty serious and ready to engage in further conversation to a good laugh at myself. like unknowingly watching a recording of last year's super bowl and cheering as it would be a live broadcast.

 

eh, well, I guess it was meant (for me) just to spark my interest and drag me in. plenty to explore around. there are no mistakes.

 

thank you for the warm welcome. 

[Jonesboy]

Ha! I haven't looked at the date of the last post. The conversation seemed to be flowing day after day, so I didn't realize I've bumped a dormant topic. 

 

but oh boy, did i have an extra long coffee with that chapter....and now going from being plenty serious and ready to engage in further conversation to a good laugh at myself. like unknowingly watching a recording of last year's super bowl and cheering as it would be a live broadcast.

 

eh, well, I guess it was meant (for me) just to spark my interest and drag me in. plenty to explore around. there are no mistakes.

 

thank you for the warm welcome.

I was happy you brought it back to life. I enjoy going over the chapters and having a thread that was open to multiple interpretations was nice.

 

I don't have the version of the TTC that was used so far but if you are interested, I use one from SFH that is well liked.

 

Welcome to the boards

Edited November 22, 2016 by Jonesboy

[dawei]

Here is where one can read the Feng/English version online:

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html

[Jonesboy]

The next one for those still interested.

 

FOUR

 

The Tao is an empty vessel; it is used, but never filled.

Oh, unfathomable source of ten thousand things!

Blunt the sharpness,

Untangle the knot,

Soften the glare,

Merge with dust.

Oh, hidden deep but ever present!

I do not know from whence it comes.

It is the forefather of the emperors.

[Marblehead]

So I actually see two concepts here.

 

The first is of the Tao, the source of all changes.  This is the first time I have ever phrased it that way.  This thought was inspired by Karl in a discussion we had.

 

The other concept is that of moderation.  Blunting, untangling, softening, and merging.  This is, IMO, the harmonizing of Yin and Yang.

[Jonesboy]

The Tao is an empty vessel; it is used, but never filled.

Oh, unfathomable source of ten thousand things!

 

The Tao is emptiness which all things arise from. One can use the energy that is the ten thousand things but emptiness can never be filled.. Thought of as a thing.

 

Blunt the sharpness,

Untangle the knot,

Soften the glare,

 

Think of emotions.. Blunt the sharpness of anger or the automatic response

Untangle the knot that is the obstruction that binds

Soften the glare.. the anger and judgment

 

Merge with dust.

Oh, hidden deep but ever present!

 

The Tao is the dust, hidden within it is the emptiness within form

 

I do not know from whence it comes.

It is the forefather of the emperors.

 

The Tao is that which has always been.. Before man and things.

[dawei]

So I actually see two concepts here.

 

The first is of the Tao, the source of all changes.  This is the first time I have ever phrased it that way.  This thought was inspired by Karl in a discussion we had.

 

The other concept is that of moderation.  Blunting, untangling, softening, and merging.  This is, IMO, the harmonizing of Yin and Yang.

 

I like that

 

We did talk about this chapter quite a bit in the study... I'm drawn to the first and last line.

 

I tend to see 'empty' in a slightly different way; Dao as continuously Emptying itself and yet never empty; I translate using the word "pouring forth" but the container is never emptied.  The original characters have a water radical in a few places.

 

The last line is much debated and widely translated as to what 'Di' refers to:  It has references ranging from Shang Di (God of Shang) to TianDi (more a Zhou reference), or simply God(s) to the Emperor and some say 'ancestors'.

 

Wang Bi comments more than usual on this chapter and seems to suggest this is the 'lord' of heaven.  I've come to a similar conclusion that it is heavenly God(s) which would mostly represent the very first non-material arising and thus before the material world.   So Dao even predates the non-material aspect.  

 

This ties in to some degree to the earlier reference about about Dao as the source of the Ten Thousand, all changes... now the point is driven further home to say, the Ten Thousand include the non-material spirits and deities.    Technically, they are manifested but in a non-material way.

[Marblehead]

 

I tend to see 'empty' in a slightly different way; Dao as continuously Emptying itself and yet never empty; I translate using the word "pouring forth" but the container is never emptied.  The original characters have a water radical in a few places.

 

The last line is much debated and widely translated as to what 'Di' refers to:  It has references ranging from Shang Di (God of Shang) to TianDi (more a Zhou reference), or simply God(s) to the Emperor and some say 'ancestors'.

 

 

 

Yeah, as I don't read Chinese I don't get to have my own original understandings/opinions but rather base them upon how others have translated the text.

 

You know I try to avoid talking about gods and stuff like that.  The word "ancestors" is perfectly acceptable for me.

 

And yes, there is much to that word "empty" but then we have the word "vessel".  That still presents Tao as a noun, something I am trying to avoid considering.

 

But anyhow, this is a good chapter for seeking a deeper understanding of the root concept of Tao.

[words]

before being able to go further, i need a bit of help to calibrate my dictionary and align it with yours. to get the language and the general understanding of it.

 

for instance, the 'ten thousand things'. what does it stand for? is there a general agreement over what it means (as in most people here know it means this or that when they see it) or each reader has their own interpretation of it? 

 

or the 'emperors'. I see that you've discussed the forefather's possible meaning, but didn't do so about what emperor means, so I figured that maybe you all understand and agree upon what emperor means in this context. I am asking because I don't know what I don't know, so maybe for a taoist the emperors refer to...i don't know....the elements, or some other metaphorical or abstract thing like that. 

 

 

 

And yes, there is much to that word "empty" but then we have the word "vessel".  That still presents Tao as a noun, something I am trying to avoid considering.

 

 

 

Can't it be both? noun and verb. or at least noun and verb? is it even possible to be just a noun or just a verb?

 

even I, the way I perceive myself, I am both a noun and a verb. my name defines both me as a person (object, noun) and at the same time is the verb of being me. besides being a person, i am a continuous and unique 'action of being/living', a movement and a moving. 

[Stosh]

Really a good pair of questions ! I use the 10000 things,,thing all the time, and always presumed to a degree,, what it meant . I take it as each kind of thing having a type of nature , a character,, ice, animals, trees,, and also individuals. Me. you,etc . I dont know if a harness, an axle,a business ,taxes , beehives, words , ,would count.

Im guessing Tao would classify as an adverb.thats to say, ,it depends on how one looks at the classifications fitting the phenomenon., But obviously there are a great deal more humans than That. And if one was selfless in the Buddhist sense , then the actual existence of the 10000 things would appear contraindicated.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Stosh

[Jonesboy]

I admit I have never studied the TTC nor have I looked at various translations.

 

What I have found is that various traditions are talking about the same truths to one degree or another.

 

So for me the Tao is emptiness, void. The Ten thousand things is form.

 

With what dawei was saying about water fits for me. Water is often a symbol for energy.

 

Also talking about gods. First there was emptiness, all things including gods, beings, trees and dust arise from emptiness. The true nature of such things is emptiness.

[Stosh]

if ,With the true nature of formed things being emptiness,,, then they would be ,in a way, endorsing an illusion they believed to be problematic. Im thinking.... Since logically there cannot be any thing which is false. Falsity being a mental projection at odds with what Does exist. To get the wording right, I think you have to say Myriad Phenomena, rather than 10000 things.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

before being able to go further, i need a bit of help to calibrate my dictionary and align it with yours. to get the language and the general understanding of it.

 

for instance, the 'ten thousand things'. what does it stand for? is there a general agreement over what it means (as in most people here know it means this or that when they see it) or each reader has their own interpretation of it? 

 

My established understanding of that concept is "all things of the material universe".  However, Dawei introduced an idea yesterday that I'm not done considering and that is that "the ten thousand things" includes all spiritual things as well.  I have always considered them as part of "wu" (Mystery).

 

or the 'emperors'. I see that you've discussed the forefather's possible meaning, but didn't do so about what emperor means, so I figured that maybe you all understand and agree upon what emperor means in this context. I am asking because I don't know what I don't know, so maybe for a taoist the emperors refer to...i don't know....the elements, or some other metaphorical or abstract thing like that. 

 

The emperor is the link between Heaven and man.  In most cases I prefer "ancestors" over "emperor" but that's just my personal thing.

 

 

Can't it be both? noun and verb. or at least noun and verb? is it even possible to be just a noun or just a verb?

 

even I, the way I perceive myself, I am both a noun and a verb. my name defines both me as a person (object, noun) and at the same time is the verb of being me. besides being a person, i am a continuous and unique 'action of being/living', a movement and a moving. 

 

I originally viewed the word "Tao" as both noun and verb.  Over time I felt uncomfortable seeing it used as a noun because that connoted some thing that could be identified, like a god, a supreme power.  This doesn't fit in at all with my Atheistic mentality.  Therefore, for me, Tao is a verb.  But then, yes, all things and all potentials reside within the infiniteness of Tao.  Tao is not a thing in and of itself but rather all things and all potential and all spiritual aspects of the essence of the universe.

 

 

Others will have varying perspectives.

[words]

What I have found is that various traditions are talking about the same truths to one degree or another.

 

 

 

Yes. I think it's impossible otherwise. I understand/make sense of everything (including traditions and their teachings) through my own experience. It's a matter of grasping a bit the model and it's dictionary, then one recognizes the same thing in all of them, as they all point to the same indescribably thing. all roads lead (or talk about the same) Rome kind of thing. 

 

 

the 10000 things do sound like standing for form, with the suggestion of great diversity. or it could stand for the...how to say it...the building blocks for form, the 'primordial genes' (not necessarily material, it could also mean concepts, potentials, whatever) of all form. also, you have the english word myriad that to everyone means great number or even countless. it also means 10000. i wonder what's with this number 10000 being used to represent indefinite multiplicity. 

 

 

I read the chapter in two parts too, just how it splits for me is different. It reads like a sandwich here. 

 

upper and lower buns are of tao

 

The Tao is an empty vessel; it is used, but never filled.

Oh, unfathomable source of ten thousand things!

 

Oh, hidden deep but ever present!

I do not know from whence it comes.

It is the forefather of the emperors. 

 

and the filling - pathways for seeing/understanding the tao (as presented in the buns).

 

Untangle the knot,

Soften the glare,

Merge with dust.

 

(untangle the knot -of 10000 things and their babies- to find their source, soften the glare/look through to see the deep hidden, merge with dust to eliminate distinction)

 

These emperors (and their forefather), I still can't identify what they stand for (as in I can't recognize the corespondent in my model), i don't get the metaphor. maybe further reading will clarify some of it, if it comes up again, or at least will provide a larger context.

[Jonesboy]

These emperors (and their forefather), I still can't identify what they stand for (as in I can't recognize the corespondent in my model), i don't get the metaphor. maybe further reading will clarify some of it, if it comes up again, or at least will provide a larger context.

If you are looking for similarities think of Buddhas, Shiva, Gods, etc..

 

They did not create the Tao but arose from it like everything else.

[dawei]

These emperors (and their forefather), I still can't identify what they stand for (as in I can't recognize the corespondent in my model), i don't get the metaphor. maybe further reading will clarify some of it, if it comes up again, or at least will provide a larger context.

 

So some more from a ancient and historical point of view.   The character in question is Di (帝).  While it is in the oracle bones (oldest possible character references which would predate Laozi by 1,000 years), it likely evolved in use and meaning by his time.  

 

Like many very ancient characters, their origin is in the sky and constellations and for Di the representation was of a Celestial Thearch or Lord on High.   As one author has said, it has the 'potency of the pivot of the heavens'.    This idea of a pivot in the constellations was usually referred to as the Pole Star about which the heavens rotate, but which itself is unmoved.  This later became associated in a more associated as Taiyi (Great One) and then also to the uncreated and unmoved Dao that all things arise and 'move' around.   

 

According to the Shiji, “The brightest star in the heavenly Pole constellation of the central palace is the regular dwelling of Tai Yi.”   Sarah Allen called the Pole Star the ultimate ancestress... just to tie in an interesting ancestor idea.

 

Now, leading up to the time of Laozi, there was the period of the Legendary Period most notable for the Three Sovereigns (San Huang, 三皇) as Fux, Nuwa, and Shennong, and the Five Emperors (Wu Di, 五帝) as: Huang Di, Zhuan Xu, Ku Di, Yao Di, and Shun Di.

 

So, it is possible that Laozi's use of Di is a reference to the Five Emperors, with the last line simply suggesting, "It is before the [five] Emperors".  I don't really find much support for this other than it is an intervening time leading up to Laozi, although he is said to have quoted the Yellow Emperor (Huang Di)... it is possible that some of his ideas originate within the other legendary period to some degree.