How much has Humanity evolved?

[Brian]

We aren't purely conceptual, neither does it necessarily mean some animals are entirely incapable of a kind of low level of conception. We have evolved very differently. We are dependent entirely on conception, where as animals are dependent on their superior physicality and skills.

^^^<bolding_added> In your opinion, when did this evolutionary differentiation occur?

[Karl]

^^^<bolding_added> In your opinion, when did this evolutionary differentiation occur?

No idea Brian. All I know is that humans are capable of holding and integrating multiple abstractions in a hierachy and other animals have not evolved in that direction. Presumably it's a diversity of nature creating ever more adaptable varieties of living organism as a result of necessity. It's not really a dominant part of objectivist philosophy except to understand how humans use volitional reason to integrate abstractions from automatic perception.

 

It spikes my interest only from the context of those who appear unaware of the key thing which makes the difference between every other animal and man. It maybe true that some animals have limited conceptual ability, but not in the way that humans can integrate multiple abstractions into symbols and then pass them on to others through common language. It's fair to say that apart from stroking a cat and being mildly amused by the antics of some animals I find them largely uninteresting. For me a tiger and a cat, or a cow and a rhinoceros are pretty much the same thing bar some physical detail.

[KuroShiro]

They are purely perceptual animals, they live in a stream of 'now' and couple that with intelligence-sometimes quite highly evolved intelligence, but still purely perceptual.

 

Not true.

 

 

They feel pleasure and pain, but they are instinctively driven and only need a bit of training for them to hunt and survive.

 

Like we are, up to a certain extent. There's interesting research going on with babies (before they learn to speak) that seems to indicate that humans are born with a built in moral code. Instinct is not bad, ever heard about gut instinct?

 

I'm not an expert on animals, or their intelligence, only that we are, as yet, seperated by an intractable difference.

 

Sure, but just because we're different there's no reason to downplay them. The interesting question is why are we different.

 

 

It spikes my interest only from the context of those who appear unaware of the key thing which makes the difference between every other animal and man. It maybe true that some animals have limited conceptual ability, but not in the way that humans can integrate multiple abstractions into symbols and then pass them on to others through common language.

 

See where it brought us, one step at a time closer to extinction and extinguishing some species along the way.

 

 

It's fair to say that apart from stroking a cat and being mildly amused by the antics of some animals I find them largely uninteresting. For me a tiger and a cat, or a cow and a rhinoceros are pretty much the same thing bar some physical detail.

 

How sad...

[Karl]

 

OK Kuro.

'Gut instinct' is an abstract concept. You had to have that abstraction as part of a complex hierachy of integrated abstract concepts. First you have to understand the concept of 'gut' and in purely biological terms this means the digestive system-that's another concept but it has a concrete reality. Then you have to understand an abstract concept called 'instinct'. So, let's test if you know the definition of instinct 'without resorting to dictionaries'- can you define it in simple terms in order that an alien with few words could get your meaning ?

 

Let me uncover for you exactly how much abstract integration you have had to do in order to get to a phrase like 'gut instinct'.

 

I'm not saying here that there isn't a value in that term, we all know roughly what it means, but how did we come by it ? What concrete experiences led to our understanding ?

[Brian]

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/healthy_aging/healthy_body/the-brain-gut-connection

[Brian]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-feelings-the-second-brain-in-our-gastrointestinal-systems-excerpt/

[Karl]

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/healthy_aging/healthy_body/the-brain-gut-connection

Well aquainted with it. IBS is in the family.

[Karl]

What a pity this topic seems to have fizzled out. It was a good one. Come back Kuro. :-)

[Marblehead]

Well, we got side-lined.  "How much has humanity evolved?" is the question.  We didn't even define humanity.  Are we asking about the animal or the humaneness of the animal.

 

IMO, the animal has evolved significantly, well beyond what other species have evolved.  But the humaneness of the animal?  It is my opinion that we have missed something.  I think that the human animal is loosing much of its humaneness.  Everything for the human and nothing for the many other species.

[Karl]

Well, we got side-lined. "How much has humanity evolved?" is the question. We didn't even define humanity. Are we asking about the animal or the humaneness of the animal.

 

IMO, the animal has evolved significantly, well beyond what other species have evolved. But the humaneness of the animal? It is my opinion that we have missed something. I think that the human animal is loosing much of its humaneness. Everything for the human and nothing for the many other species.

"Rational animal"

 

It's important to understand its a volitional consciousness. Using reason isn't automatic. We can choose to be ignorant, or to evade. Just because we have the faculty does not mean why act morally automatically. Animals can't help their actions, they are amoral, but humans can be immoral.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by 'nothing for any other species' ? As humans we are forced to transform things into other things.

 

Our evolution is now in our own hands. We have reason which gives us potentially unlimited capacity to learn, differentiate, integrate the entire universe. We seem to have become lost, reason became a threat to men who want power and so a philosophy was devised that destroyed reason.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Karl

[Marblehead]

Agree Karl.  We are (supposed to be) a rational animal.  We do have the ability.  Some practice it well, others, not so much.

 

And I agree, all the other species are beyond good and evil.  Intent is an important concept for me regarding the human animal.

[Karl]

Agree Karl.  We are (supposed to be) a rational animal.  We do have the ability.  Some practice it well, others, not so much.

 

And I agree, all the other species are beyond good and evil.  Intent is an important concept for me regarding the human animal.

Education is evolution. I mean here that education is the capacity to self learn for the sake of learning. It isn't like learning a skill but is more love of learning for the sake of learning. The people who do this are pure academics, the trouble is that today's academics are hell bent on preventing it because they are pragmatists and moral relativists-hence very persuaded by socialist collectivism.

 

Rand wrote a book called 'for the new intellectual' which hoped to inspire a new generation of reason loving academics, but, in positions of influence (colleges, universities, schools, arts, media, publishers, advisers) we are light years away from the possibility. Maybe after we eventually suffer a complete crash to a new dark age (the subject of my novel as it happens) then we will discover reason again- either that or we wipe ourselves out, or something we could have perhaps prevented technologically occurs to which we have no longer the possibility of a solution. Anyway, you and I will likely be long gone by that time, so, unless it's a primary goal (as it is for me) then we can get on with gardening, tending the fish, having a glass of wine, watching the kids grow up, the music play and the Sun set.

[Marblehead]

True.  What humanity does to itself won't effect me, likely at all.  Among other projects today I did have to tend to the ponds.  One of my pumps went dead and had to replace it.  I already had a backup so it was just a matter of changing them out.

 

But sure, a philosophy should stand up to reality.  If it doesn't then why even bother.

 

And yes, education, becoming wiser, is evolution.  I doubt I could argue that humanity is wisely managing the planet though.

 

But humanity will get feedback.

[Karl]

True.  What humanity does to itself won't effect me, likely at all.  Among other projects today I did have to tend to the ponds.  One of my pumps went dead and had to replace it.  I already had a backup so it was just a matter of changing them out.

 

But sure, a philosophy should stand up to reality.  If it doesn't then why even bother.

 

And yes, education, becoming wiser, is evolution.  I doubt I could argue that humanity is wisely managing the planet though.

 

But humanity will get feedback.

We shouldn't be concerned with managing the planet, we really aren't in any kind of position to believe we have that control. We are stuck with digging up lumps, harvesting, building, burning, killing for food, manufacturing. The most efficient and best use of resources is laissez faire capitalism, which, we haven't got, only crony government corporatism. From that perspective we aren't making the best use of all resources at present and doing more damage than necessary. To that extent we can see the problem in the economic systems which are at melting point- that's the feedback we will get, the environmental issues might come, but they may do anyway.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, the Earth has its ways of mending what we humans mess up most of the time.  Sometimes the mending is almost immediate but other times it takes years and years.

 

And you are right, all we, the individual, can do is what we have some control of.  Different individuals have different priorities.

[3bob]

"they" say everything is perfect since at an eternally occurring moment it can be no other way, further and moment by moment energy plays out in gross and subtle forms since it cannot do otherwise  (thus not able to break  any elemental laws of itself  as it plays out)  so how to stop one's individual train or not be a leaf in the winds of various energies?  Some have made that journey and left behind records and traces of how they did it...  

[Marblehead]

... so how to stop one's individual train or not be a leaf in the winds of various energies?  Some have made that journey and left behind records and traces of how they did it...  

Thing is, if we are on a good train and we are comfortable why would we want to get off the train and walk?

 

People need a reason.  Most will continue to ride the comfortable train they are on.  Few indeed would be willing to walk.

 

Sure, we have great examples we could follow.  But what did it get "them"?  They died anyhow.

 

Better to die in a brand new Caddy than in a broke-down, beat up Ford.