sillybearhappyhoneyeater Posted September 28, 2016 Just a quickie,   I have gone into fair detail here about the difference between pre and post heaven cultivation of Qi as it pertains to Neidan, but haven't talked about Qi gong that much. I want to discuss Qi Gong for a moment in order hopefully to open up a wider discussion about why Qi gong is different from Neidan.   Qi Gong is a post heaven activity and by definition can not be pre heaven. Many of you already know that the pre heaven state is found in non action and is not something that can be achieved while directing the mind to a specific activity. The reason it is possible to reach the pre heaven when meditating, even if focusing the mind on a specific point in the body is because of "Zhen Ding," which basically translates to "real setting," or "real stability." This is when the mind is placed somewhere for long enough that the feeling naturally resides there even though you are no longer directing the mind with your own intention.  Qi gong is practiced by projecting the intention to various points in the body in order to draw oxygenated blood to those areas. For instance, I might choose to do a movement in which I wave my hands forward while focusing on my palms. this is in order to allow more blood to move to that place, improving circulation.    We know that when we focus on a specific area of the body, it can cause it to heat up slightly, and Qi Gong basically works according to a similar principle. Because qi Gong will always focus on some sort of conscious control over the movement of oxygenated blood, then it always requires intent, and changing of intent, which means that by definition it cannot be a pre heaven exercise. Things like holding post also work the same way, since you always have to retain enough control of your posture that you don't fall over. Meditation on the other hand has you sitting there, not overly worried about posture, although some schools suggest specific postures to be taken.  This is where things get a bit tricky, since we all know that some schools of neidan have the concept of "walking, standing, sitting, lying down," and that some teachers such as Wang Chongyang suggested that you should practice all the time. the fact of the matter is that the only practice in which the mind can genuinely enter the pre heaven state is when your mind and body are completely still, so those other practices are designed to keep the mind as calm as possible while in the fully waking post heaven state. This is a very important distinction of Daoist pracitces, since it recognizes that pre and post heaven practice are both extremely important and that neither should be given absolute precedence. Much of what Wang Chongyang talked about is called "Xing gong," or the practice of consciousness. It is half of the equation of "Xing ming shuang xiu," whereas Ming gong, the other half, can most clearly be seen in practices like Zuo Wang, in which the mind is made totally blank. Neidan and Qi gong are both "Xing ming shuang xiu," or xing and ming dual practice, but Neidan approaches it from the perspective of entering the pre heaven state and allowing the energy to move by itself until it needs to be controlled, upon which the post heaven state is used to control the energy, usually bringing it back to its source. qi gong only usually enters the pre heaven state at times when the body is at rest, so usually at the end of a session when the mind goes into a chaotic meditative state and there is no physical movement. It is very difficult to get into the pre heaven state during physical exercise which requires attention and intention, although not everyone completely agrees about this point, and certainly the Northern school and Zhang Sanfeng school advise that Danfa can be practiced even when your body is moving, so this post isn't meant to be a final verdict, but more just some general ideas about why Qi gong and neidan are different.  The key and possibly most important point is that Qi Gong focuses on the mind leading the Qi rather than the Qi accumulating as a result of silent introspection.  The Qi that the mind is leading is "breathing Qi." Jiang Weiqiao put it very well when he said that there are two types of breathing, one external and one internal. External breath is the one you take in through your nose, to your lungs and put back out through your nose. internal breath is the oxygen circulating through the body as red blood and returning as co2 as blue blood through the veins.     This particular Qi is post heaven Qi which you can practice by directing intent. It is the oxygenated Qi in blood. Neidan cultivates both pre and post heaven Qi and is a different and much more complicated subject that probably has just as much relation to hormonal secretions in the brain as it does with blood circulation improving and becoming palpable.   Hopefully this thread opens up some discussion about this, and if you think I've gotten something wrong, welcome to call me out and if I'm wrong, I'll admit it, otherwise, we'll debate it 12 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wu Ming Jen Posted September 28, 2016 Pre heaven Chi is what we are all born with like a battery. We can deplete or restore the charge.When the ego / emotions starts leading the show the spirit gets exhausted. there are 5 internal robbers that can steal this energy. There are hundreds of methods to restore.  Post Heaven chi is from food, water, air and environmental factors again can deplete or restore. Chi Gung methods can restore.  Neidan Internal alchemy is the method of becoming Immortal (practice of consciousness)..The spirit takes back control like a kind minister where the ego was like a violent general.Now we leave the physical and enter the formless gate, the pre heaven energies, The temporary body methods are continued and the formless body is formed.  Great Topic 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sillybearhappyhoneyeater Posted September 28, 2016 Pre heaven Chi is what we are all born with like a battery. We can deplete or restore the charge.When the ego / emotions starts leading the show the spirit gets exhausted. there are 5 internal robbers that can steal this energy. There are hundreds of methods to restore.  Post Heaven chi is from food, water, air and environmental factors again can deplete or restore. Chi Gung methods can restore.  Neidan Internal alchemy is the method of becoming Immortal (practice of consciousness)..The spirit takes back control like a kind minister where the ego was like a violent general.Now we leave the physical and enter the formless gate, the pre heaven energies, The temporary body methods are continued and the formless body is formed.  Great Topic  great response! Thanks for that!  I just wrote this blog post today,  http://daoistmeditation.com/2016/09/28/265/  And Annie Pecheva wrote this great post on her blog:  http://anniepecheva.blogspot.ca/2012/02/cycles-of-life-according-to-yi-jing.html  Which both go well with your response 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
