Has anyone here achieved super consciousness?

[Karl]

Karl, part of wisdom lies in being able to recognize good information when one sees it.  I've had enough of wasting my time responding to you, anyway.  This is part of my issue with the whole egalitarian thing, where it allows a veritable noob to naively or ignorantly and baselessly dress up an ostensible senpai in the matter - totally uncalled for and beyond the range of the noob's experience.  Fkn annoying.

 

LOL I recognise words that you refuse to define for some reason that I can only assume is because you have no idea. Wisdom is being able to clearly communicate your conceptual hierachy without resorting to ad hominems.

 

If I ask a mechanic what he means by a valve guide I don't expect him to run off the deep end complaining about amateur mechanics that think they know it all.

 

I can only reflect that you lack of definition is because you don't wish to share, or you simply don't know.

[Karl]

That is pretty much what has happened every time I have tried to have a conversation with him.

 

Aw yeah jump on the one asking the difficult questions. Please tell me none of you teach this stuff.

[Jetsun]

Aw yeah jump on the one asking the difficult questions. Please tell me none of you teach this stuff.

 

Well you can do it without denigrating others experience as fiction/fantasy 

[joeblast]

LOL I recognise words that you refuse to define for some reason that I can only assume is because you have no idea. Wisdom is being able to clearly communicate your conceptual hierachy without resorting to ad hominems.

 

If I ask a mechanic what he means by a valve guide I don't expect him to run off the deep end complaining about amateur mechanics that think they know it all.

 

I can only reflect that you lack of definition is because you don't wish to share, or you simply don't know.

my buddy's soon to be 3 year old is at the "why" stage.  I answered why 15 times in a row yesterday, and still the response was...."why?"    I didnt answer a 16th time.

[Karl]

Well you can do it without denigrating others experience as fiction/fantasy

 

Not to mention the denigration that I received for asking for clarity. When someone has 'an experience' that they are unable to describe in terms of existent reality, then it must be fantasy.

 

If I tell you I had the experience of flying to New York I could describe it in terms you would recognise. You won't actually experience the flight, but you can grasp the conceptual elements. If I say I experienced heaven then you might rightly ask if I meant utmost joy, if I said that I meant Gods Kingdom then I cannot define anything except in fantasy terms. I can say ephemeral spirit clouds and Angels and we can both imagine it, but there is no connection with existent reality. I cannot say how I got there, where the place is, what the Angels were, nor how I was supported on clouds. Fantasy.

[Karl]

my buddy's soon to be 3 year old is at the "why" stage.  I answered why 15 times in a row yesterday, and still the response was...."why?"    I didnt answer a 16th time.

Oh so you are comparing me with a 3 year old now. Nice. Mature rational argument for someone with all this spiritual wisdom and quiet minded body without a signal.

 

Karl to Joeblast : return to Earth

[Jetsun]

Not to mention the denigration that I received for asking for clarity. When someone has 'an experience' that they are unable to describe in terms of existent reality, then it must be fantasy.

 

If I tell you I had the experience of flying to New York I could describe it in terms you would recognise. You won't actually experience the flight, but you can grasp the conceptual elements. If I say I experienced heaven then you might rightly ask if I meant utmost joy, if I said that I meant Gods Kingdom then I cannot define anything except in fantasy terms. I can say ephemeral spirit clouds and Angels and we can both imagine it, but there is no connection with existent reality. I cannot say how I got there, where the place is, what the Angels were, nor how I was supported on clouds. Fantasy.

 

There is very little consensus on what comprises this existent reality. 

 

For example some say there is just consciousness and no super consciousness, whereas someone like Sri Aurobindo (who many people recognise as one of the greatest Indian philosophers and Yogi's of recent times) classifies mind as 

Higher Mind, Spiritual Mind, Inner Mind, Psychic Mind, Mind Proper, Thinking Mind, Dynamic Mind, Exterior Mind, Vital Mind, Physical Mind, Mechanical Mind, Mind of Light Intuitive Mind, Overmind, Supermind. There is no consensus in almost anything, it all depends on what perspective you look at things from.

[Silent Answers]

Kind of seems like a big misunderstanding to me, as an outsider.

 

Here it is in Karl terms:

 

By signal noise, I'm assuming JB means a clean mind, free of experience and social programming? The state of consciousness/mental activity before becoming polluted with unnecessary association...and that freeing one's self of the wasteful distractions allows for a much smoother and unhindered operation. One can imagine that it requires quite a lot of dedicated processing power to keep those bad habits alive, energy and focus that could be put to better use.

[Karl]

There is very little consensus on what comprises this existent reality. 

 

For example some say there is just consciousness and no super consciousness, whereas someone like Sri Aurobindo (who many people recognise as one of the greatest Indian philosophers and Yogi's of recent times) classifies mind as 

Higher Mind, Spiritual Mind, Inner Mind, Psychic Mind, Mind Proper, Thinking Mind, Dynamic Mind, Exterior Mind, Vital Mind, Physical Mind, Mechanical Mind, Mind of Light Intuitive Mind, Overmind, Supermind. There is no consensus in almost anything, it all depends on what perspective you look at things from.

There's no need for consensus. Open your eyes and there it is.

 

Was Sri Auronindo a scientist who has found evidence of these different cognitive area within the brain ?

 

Consciousness has to be conscious of something. There is no kind of consciousness that is consciously aware of itself. The concepts themselves are proof of this.

 

Now, you may say that what you have is faith. I won't argue with faith it's not worth the effort and is the decision of the person wanting to believe in such things. I only argue if they try and convince me that their faith is right and I should agree that it.

 

However, few here admit to faith, they say it's reality and if I ask them to prove it with respect to reality I get short shift. Like you just said that you believe no one knows what existent reality is, yet all proof has to be based on existent reality. What you are saying is there is no reality, so no proof can be given, so one must just feel it, or experience it-that is faith.

[Jetsun]

There's no need for consensus. Open your eyes and there it is.

 

Was Sri Auronindo a scientist who has found evidence of these different cognitive area within the brain ?

 

 

Scientists haven't found anywhere in the brain which is the cause of consciousness, it is still a complete mystery to science

 

But you could say that he was a scientist in the sense that anyone can experience and reproduce the different mental states by using specific techniques and meditation. 

[joeblast]

The thinking mind does not enter into this equation here, if one is thinking then one is not in meditation.  I'm specifically referring to the neural inputs of the 5 senses as it translates into the 12 cranial nerves input into the energy balance equation.

 

So by Karl asserting "You are noticing 'ah my mind is blank, I am thoughtless, this is pure consciousness devoid of bodily signal noise" he is missing out on the link to cranial nerve input and the manifestation of thoughtform energy - for if one even thinks that, the state is gone.  I've been to the point where I've been able to feel the beginnings of the bubbles of thoughtform energy percolate - and yes, in the beginning, they just popped off and I was not able to control them - but with conditioning, the awareness can easily be aware of the emergence of that thoughtform-energy bubble, how it happens, the veritable -,+ negative positive sine wave yinyang emergence at the center of the midbrain, an energetic indentation forms and bubble emerges, and if certain pathways are in a relative yang phase, it rides them - so with further training, one can absorb that bubble of energy the instant it arises, before it rides the chain of logical loopings up into the higher thinking brain centers.

 

It is like a magician making a funny face and then bulging his cheeks out, and taking a golf ball out of his mouth, the way in which this manifests.

 

After a while, the bubbles stop and the energy more coherent, focused.

 

You have to *really* quiet things down, at the neurological level, before these things happen, which is why I have always advocated the rote approach to anapanasati and fully conquering the breath, its mechanics, and reaching maximal efficiency - for the maximal efficiency is where there is no field-potential availability for thoughtform energy to ride the train.  Like a Bose Einstein condensate, where the electrons haven't the energy to maintain their orbits and drop from them.  This is an outcome of efficiency, and coherence.  This is where the mind game ends and the awareness game begins.

 

Its a state where you are intimately connected and aware of internals and midbrain workings, and that's the jumping point where beyond that, a superlative tranquility manifests not only in meditation but throughout all conscious and subconscious, and since it is also extremely efficient, there is a lot of extra energy that used to get used up by the noise, that no longer does.

 

Quiescence is directly linked to smooth harmonics.  That's why in the physical motions, each power range should occur simultaneously, to maximize the coherence and thus eventual power generation.  In the context of stillness, it is finding an energetic maxima concurrent with a consumption minima; this is the most efficient outcome.  This timing winds up directly relating to the flow of signals in the cranial nerves - coherence leads to quiescence - signals are in phase, harmonized, and this harmonization is the process that begins the yin mode of the nerves' resonating.  This is the single yang line transforming to yin line in the alchemical carvings.  The yin resonant mode waxes, then the arising spark of yang is experienced as a sort of metabolic boost from which further energy can be derived.  You see in Taoist Yoga, the practitioner has opened his shirt. At this stage, gung and breath duration are very highly correlated.

 

 

This is perhaps a literal take on "the jing of tranquility" because to me, I have experienced boost of qi, boost of jing, turning into boost of shen as the natural outflows of these tactical approaches to practice.  At first when the states arise, one notices them and thinks the thoughts of having noticed them.  Then one learns to enter the experiences without the formation of thought of noticing....after a while, one is simply returning to them with the same familiarity as just having walked in one's own door, or laid one's head down on one's pillow.

 

Keep going, Karl   We're still not there yet...

Edited October 13, 2016 by joeblast

[rene]

Not to mention the denigration that I received for asking for clarity. When someone has 'an experience' that they are unable to describe in terms of existent reality, then it must be fantasy...

Not necessarily. When I experience something that is not possible to convey or describe with words, it's not the experience that is the fantasy. Thinking it can be fully described, is.

 

Sometimes, words don't work. (-:

 

warm regards

[Karl]

Kind of seems like a big misunderstanding to me, as an outsider.

Here it is in Karl terms:

By signal noise, I'm assuming JB means a clean mind, free of experience and social programming? The state of consciousness/mental activity before becoming polluted with unnecessary association...and that freeing one's self of the wasteful distractions allows for a much smoother and unhindered operation. One can imagine that it requires quite a lot of dedicated processing power to keep those bad habits alive, energy and focus that could be put to better use.

Thank you. It's IMO easier to accomplish by rational thinking and logic applied consistently-we don't learn this, we have to actively perform it. I think that what you describe is free wheeling. I did that for several years, but learned that the bad stuff comes back at unexpected moments and then it's worse because of the expectation it had been surpassed. Just my 2p worth.

[Karl]

Scientists haven't found anywhere in the brain which is the cause of consciousness, it is still a complete mystery to science

 

But you could say that he was a scientist in the sense that anyone can experience and reproduce the different mental states by using specific techniques and meditation.

 

Mental states absolutely, this is scientifically proven, but not conscious states. Consciousness is the thing which is aware of the mental states, it is always on unless one is unconscious. The idea of changing conscious states would be bizzare. We can be more or less aware, but consciousness is operating at the same level as it grasps existence from wherever we point our awareness. Awareness can be focused, contracted, withdrawn into introspection, or spread out very wide. We are only ever conscious of the things in our awareness which are existents-these include self (a conceptual abstraction in introspective terms).

[Karl]

Not necessarily. When I experience something that is not possible to convey or describe with words, it's not the experience that is the fantasy. Thinking it can be fully described, is.

Sometimes, words don't work. (-:

warm regards

That you cannot find the words describes an emotion, but all emotions have equivalence and if you have the time, patience and a high degree of introspection these can be revealed.

[Karl]

The thinking mind does not enter into this equation here, if one is thinking then one is not in meditation.  I'm specifically referring to the neural inputs of the 5 senses as it translates into the 12 cranial nerves input into the energy balance equation.

 

So by Karl asserting "You are noticing 'ah my mind is blank, I am thoughtless, this is pure consciousness devoid of bodily signal noise" he is missing out on the link to cranial nerve input and the manifestation of thoughtform energy - for if one even thinks that, the state is gone.  I've been to the point where I've been able to feel the beginnings of the bubbles of thoughtform energy percolate - and yes, in the beginning, they just popped off and I was not able to control them - but with conditioning, the awareness can easily be aware of the emergence of that thoughtform-energy bubble, how it happens, the veritable -,+ negative positive sine wave yinyang emergence at the center of the midbrain, an energetic indentation forms and bubble emerges, and if certain pathways are in a relative yang phase, it rides them - so with further training, one can absorb that bubble of energy the instant it arises, before it rides the chain of logical loopings up into the higher thinking brain centers.

 

It is like a magician making a funny face and then bulging his cheeks out, and taking a golf ball out of his mouth, the way in which this manifests.

 

After a while, the bubbles stop and the energy more coherent, focused.

 

You have to *really* quiet things down, at the neurological level, before these things happen, which is why I have always advocated the rote approach to anapanasati and fully conquering the breath, its mechanics, and reaching maximal efficiency - for the maximal efficiency is where there is no field-potential availability for thoughtform energy to ride the train.  Like a Bose Einstein condensate, where the electrons haven't the energy to maintain their orbits and drop from them.  This is an outcome of efficiency, and coherence.  This is where the mind game ends and the awareness game begins.

 

Its a state where you are intimately connected and aware of internals and midbrain workings, and that's the jumping point where beyond that, a superlative tranquility manifests not only in meditation but throughout all conscious and subconscious, and since it is also extremely efficient, there is a lot of extra energy that used to get used up by the noise, that no longer does.

 

Quiescence is directly linked to smooth harmonics.  That's why in the physical motions, each power range should occur simultaneously, to maximize the coherence and thus eventual power generation.  In the context of stillness, it is finding an energetic maxima concurrent with a consumption minima; this is the most efficient outcome.  This timing winds up directly relating to the flow of signals in the cranial nerves - coherence leads to quiescence - signals are in phase, harmonized, and this harmonization is the process that begins the yin mode of the nerves' resonating.  This is the single yang line transforming to yin line in the alchemical carvings.  The yin resonant mode waxes, then the arising spark of yang is experienced as a sort of metabolic boost from which further energy can be derived.  You see in Taoist Yoga, the practitioner has opened his shirt. At this stage, gung and breath duration are very highly correlated.

 

 

This is perhaps a literal take on "the jing of tranquility" because to me, I have experienced boost of qi, boost of jing, turning into boost of shen as the natural outflows of these tactical approaches to practice.  At first when the states arise, one notices them and thinks the thoughts of having noticed them.  Then one learns to enter the experiences without the formation of thought of noticing....after a while, one is simply returning to them with the same familiarity as just having walked in one's own door, or laid one's head down on one's pillow.

 

Keep going, Karl   We're still not there yet...

This can be done, but you are making it have a complexity and mystery that is unnecessary. You have learned to focus awareness introspectively but you don't have the fore knowledge and so where you see mystic energies and outflows I decipher them. Like the matrix film. If you don't know what the code is, then it's a pretty energy waterfall on which you can fascinate like snowflakes falling on a moving windscreen. The flow arises, moves, disappears, but only because you don't know what you are looking at. You are looking at the windscreen wipers, but not at the road beyond it. This is effectively the position of a newborn trying to make sense of its external environment, you are beginning to learn about your internal states.

 

No doubt I'm making assumptions again, I can't possibly understand blah blah blah. ;-)

[Karl]

At this point I'm dropping out. Either I don't understand and therefore I never will, or I actually understand this far more than you think. Anyway, whichever it may be I cannot add any more.

[Andrei]

 

Scientists haven't found anywhere in the brain which is the cause of consciousness, it is still a complete mystery to science

 

This is not true, more and more evidence is found that the consciousness is generated by the brain, there is no such a thing as consciousness outside the brain. As soon as the brain cease to function the consciousness is gone. This is why you loose consciousness under anesthesia or if you get a blow on your head. OBE and NDE are not an argument for the "consciousness outside the brain/body" concept. OBE and NDE can be explained as brain generated "experiences".

This talk is really interesting about how the brain works:

 

[rene]

That you cannot find the words describes an emotion, but all emotions have equivalence and if you have the time, patience and a high degree of introspection these can be revealed.

If that is the case, then my experience is not a fantasy. Thanks!

[rene]

At this point I'm dropping out. Either I don't understand and therefore I never will, or I actually understand this far more than you think. Anyway, whichever it may be I cannot add any more.

If all one has is a hammer - everything must be perceived as a nail. Cheers!

[Karl]

If that is the case, then my experience is not a fantasy. Thanks!

I will answer as you have replied after Insaid I would bow out so out of politeness.

 

Your experience is your experience, you say you had it so that's what you had. However when I say emotional equivalence I mean in the sense that there are conceptions associated with the emotions, that does not imply the conceptions are grounded, they can be floating abstractions. For instance 'God has chosen me' might bring euphoria, or a sense of deep joy, but no such God can be found in your own existent experience. This is what I mean by fantasy.

[Jetsun]

This is not true, more and more evidence is found that the consciousness is generated by the brain, there is no such a thing as consciousness outside the brain. As soon as the brain cease to function the consciousness is gone. This is why you loose consciousness under anesthesia or if you get a blow on your head. OBE and NDE are not an argument for the "consciousness outside the brain/body" concept. OBE and NDE can be explained as brain generated "experiences".

This talk is really interesting about how the brain works:

 

 

This just proves that the brain has an effect on states such as thought and emotion, it says nothing about what causes consciousness, which is why it is still regarded as the "hard problem" of neuroscience. With regards to OBE and NDE there are numerous cases of people obtaining information about things in their OBE which they couldn't possibly have known, the story of Anita Moorjani is one example. Also when you lose consciousness such as when you are sleeping another form of consciousness is still present such as dreaming, plus it is possible to train yourself with Yogic techniques to be aware and lucid in such states even during the deepest part of unconscious sleep.

 

Alan Wallace is a good resource about the dogma surrounding consciousness studies:

 

"Many materialists argue that mental processes are identical to or are nothing more than functions of their neural correlates, while others dogmatically propose that consciousness and all kinds of subjective experiences don’t really exist at all! Although many materialistic theories of the mind-body relationship have been proposed, none of them lend themselves to scientific verification or repudiation, so they are merely hypotheses or speculations, not scientific theories. And they are certainly not scientifically established facts, despite the fact that the scientific and popular media commonly equate the mind and brain, without any compelling reasoning or empirical evidence."

https://cup.columbia.edu/author-interviews/wallace-meditations-buddhist-skeptic

 

 

Also I saw a programme on tv yesterday about a boy being born with only 2% of his brain, yet he was still alive and functional and conscious, how is that possible if consciousness is created by the brain?

Edited October 14, 2016 by Jetsun

[Silent Answers]

Thank you. It's IMO easier to accomplish by rational thinking and logic applied consistently-we don't learn this, we have to actively perform it. I think that what you describe is free wheeling. I did that for several years, but learned that the bad stuff comes back at unexpected moments and then it's worse because of the expectation it had been surpassed. Just my 2p worth.

I don't think we'll ever be entirely free of the waxing and waning process. That's what keeps it interesting, I guess. Know that it's a stage you'll meet and conquer again, and again. Hopefully, each time a little wiser than the last. Life is a constant test, and if the tests cease, You have likely found death.

 

Scientifically, a vast amount of energy is being streamed into our planet from the sun, and thus into us. The cycles of our planetary magnetic field also have an effect on our awareness/behaviour, both directly and indirectly (indirectly in the form if cosmic rays - as recently published by NASA). Considering that we are part of the universe's cyclical events, it stands to reason that they will occur within us at least on a physical level, affecting our mental state; but perhaps also on a more mysterious (less clearly understood) level involving electric/magnetic field interactions.

 

That said, the stronger minded among us will hopefully master the waves, learning to charter their ups and downs like birds and fish using convection to their advantage instead of being tossed around by it.

[MooNiNite]

I will bite: yes I have.  I had a temporary enlightenment experience in high school and meditated extensively in various Buddhist traditions until I gained a permanent return to that state.  I am happy to answer any questions!

 

I also believe i have a state of enlightenment. 

What helped you gain a temporary enlightenment experience in high school?

[MooNiNite]