the philosophy behind kunlun

[Sunya]

so i was thinking... too much probably.

 

who cares about bliss? and why is that being associated with enlightenment?

i'm drawn to kunlun because of the energetic development but i don't understand why its being marketed as a fast one way ticket to bliss.. and the word enlightenment is thrown in. to me enlightenment is more than just feeling good, i can just take extasy pill every morning for that. enlightenment to me is dispelling illusion and living in oneness. knowing the truth and living the truth. what does that have to do with bliss? and why does the philosophy of kunlun seem so 'dumbed down'? no offense meant to Max of course, but i feel that questioning our teachers methods are important or else we'd be mindless drones.

[Cameron]

Maybe don't think so much and do 100 days and a workshop first before critisizing how Max teaches his system?

 

Just a thought bro.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Mickaelz,

 

Good questions and i do remember i asked you what BLISS was remember????

 

[sheng zhen]

so i was thinking... too much probably.

 

who cares about bliss? and why is that being associated with enlightenment?

It is assosiated with enlightenment because it is our natural state, our true selfs state. Deep down we really really really love life and enjoy every detail in it.

 

i'm drawn to kunlun because of the energetic development but i don't understand why its being marketed as a fast one way ticket to bliss.. and the word enlightenment is thrown in. to me enlightenment is more than just feeling good, i can just take extasy pill every morning for that.

I agree, enlightenment is about more than bliss. It is a good marketing strategy though, it works. There is nothing people, or egos, want more than being happy and successfull. Books about gaing money and happiness in 1-2-3 are allways bestsellers. I believe deep bliss is a by-product of enlightenment, not the other way around. If we dont reconfirm our new-found truth(from releasing illusion), nurture it and let it grow into our daily life and practice, the bliss will tone down and we will gradually come back to the illusions we started with.

 

enlightenment to me is dispelling illusion and living in oneness. knowing the truth and living the truth. what does that have to do with bliss?

They say that whenever an energetic block, or illusion, is released, bliss takes its place. Notice that enlightened people are always happy and shining. When we dont limit ourselves, when we stop confirming our own illusions over and over, our true unlimited self is present. Happiness dosent explain that condition. Its a lot more intense than that. I think bliss or samadhi is more a correct description.

 

and why does the philosophy of kunlun seem so 'dumbed down'? no offense meant to Max of course, but i feel that questioning our teachers methods are important or else we'd be mindless drones.

I dont feel it is "dumbed down", only not so important. My impression about kunlun is "practice and feel, dont think".

[jjwalters]

so i was thinking... too much probably.

 

who cares about bliss? and why is that being associated with enlightenment?

enlightenment to me is dispelling illusion and living in oneness.

 

Interesting....does living in an enlightened oneness state necessarily equate to bliss?..........

 

What if a hunter just shot, killed, and gutted the deer who comes around every evening to enjoy your pasture? ......this creates deep sorrow in one who understands the oneness of all things.........actually the more I experience reality the more sorrow I feel as I look around me and see what bondage my human brothers and sisters are under.......nothing blissful about it.

 

Can a truly enlightened individual experience bliss when all around him a war is raging and children are dying?

[joeblast]

One only has control over so much in this world, the rest is beyond - not that one would condone the bad behaviors, but worrying too much about it would seem to be a form of attachment. Is ignorance bliss when it comes to something like that, though?

Personally, I've got enough on my plate to worry about...I try to do what I can, change what I may, accept what I cannot.

[thelerner]

Can a truly enlightened individual experience bliss when all around him a war is raging and children are dying?

 

If not now, when?

 

When things are perfect?

 

That will be a long wait my friend.

 

 

There are pieces of the world that are indeed perfect.

Seek'em out and cherish them.

 

There are places in the world we can fix and make closer to whole.

Find'em and do the work. Karma (service) yoga is as real and worthwhile as any other.

 

 

I'm not much a bliss person myself,

but I do think the state holds power

beyond just feeling good.

 

Michael

[AugustLeo]

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Edited April 10, 2009 by AugustLeo

[mantis]

the world will always have it's problems - there has been death since there has been birth. if you are reading this that means you are not dead and have the ability to practice - and should do so.

[Uncle Fester]

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Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[Wayfarer64]

Michael - I concur. I was going to write a long boring discourse agreeing with you and then I realized there was no need.

 

Thanks for sharing with me.

 

Michael in RI

 

As usual Michael has kept our collective feet on the ground- good Aikido! & Good thinking staying grounded in reality... it may be a quantum leap of faith on some levels but our shared reality has it all for us... stay the course, wiggy as they often are -many of these courses bared results for some... and some of us are at least becoming aware of our options here...

[Sunya]

 

 

I am pretty much just flappin' in the breeze here really. I don't know anything.

 

 

hahah

 

no you gave me some tidbits to think about. i agree with you, i just don't understand why kunlun is being marketed so that bliss is the endresult, not the byproduct. i just feel this plays to the ego and attracts the wrong kind of seekers

[mYTHmAKER]

 

There are pieces of the world that are indeed perfect.

Seek'em out and cherish them.

There are places in the world we can fix and make closer to whole.

Michael

 

They are perfect to us because they either benefit us or are comfortable.

That is the ego's perfection.

 

Michael am still waiting for your Kunlin report - what is happening - where are you now.

Did I miss it?

[jjwalters]

If not now, when?

 

When things are perfect?

 

 

but I do think the state holds power

beyond just feeling good.

 

Michael

 

To answer my own question I would say sure because as you said......I don't believe either that the state of bliss is a feel good thing.............I believe you can have both feet on the ground.....shedding tears while scrapping dead guys off the road and still be in a state of bliss...............this tip toe through the tulips stuff I don't agree with.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

i just feel this plays to the ego and attracts the wrong kind of seekers!!!

[Wayfarer64]

i just feel this plays to the ego and attracts the wrong kind of seekers!!!

 

And if ya want to tip-toe thru this world ya better have the right kind of sneakers...

[Sunya]

i just feel this plays to the ego and attracts the wrong kind of seekers!!!

 

 

not saying it isn't a good practice for energy cultivation though, so i'm going to continue practicing it.

[MatthewQi]

so i was thinking... too much probably.

 

who cares about bliss? and why is that being associated with enlightenment?

i'm drawn to kunlun because of the energetic development but i don't understand why its being marketed as a fast one way ticket to bliss.. and the word enlightenment is thrown in. to me enlightenment is more than just feeling good, i can just take extasy pill every morning for that. enlightenment to me is dispelling illusion and living in oneness. knowing the truth and living the truth. what does that have to do with bliss? and why does the philosophy of kunlun seem so 'dumbed down'? no offense meant to Max of course, but i feel that questioning our teachers methods are important or else we'd be mindless drones.

 

When you experience what is being pointed to you will perhaps understand the Way and It's Power or maybe one might fall back on craving intellectual understanding, it is all ok though. The Bliss that is being talked about, regardless of tradition, is a universal experience and so powerful and beautiful that one has no questions Not just talking about feeling "good".

 

Yes, find your own way! it is your life, your path. I have no idea what Kunlun is and never paracticed it but I know what I know from direct experience. Maybe it is a path for you and maybe something else is better. Regardless of what you choose, your intellect is going to be challenged beyond what you can fathom.

 

I am not a fan of paths that are reliant on anything but giving one the tools to make their own discoveries. That is not to say that guru paths aren't legit but there is a whole nother potential for disappointment that isn't necessary in my opinion.

 

Best,

 

Matt

[Mantra68]

Self-discovery from doing practice. Direct experience with the Tao. Go as far as you want.

 

No philosophy needed.

[Cameron]

Mantra68...

 

The Taoist Philosophical conversation killer.

 

 

ps. I aspire to that level.

[xenolith]

Excellent post mikaelz. I've wondered, and posted similar thoughts. Regrettably, I got nothing of substance in reply. You've received some substantive replies but nothing which addresses the fundamental question of (paraphrasing) "what value is Kunlun towards attainment of enlightenment?"

 

I strongly suspect that there is a not insignificant degree of hyperbole in the Kunlun business plan. Hit the key points...make the ignorati, the fashionably hip and the nouveau spiritual feel as though they're karma can be avoided by making themselves feel "bliss"...and tell them they're now enlightened. And it only costs $300! A fools game. For the fools that buy it and those that sell it.

 

I don't doubt that good feelings, even blissful states are experienced. But until these are credibly shown to have any relationship with enlightenment, i.e. disassociation of the self and the ego, well, I'm going to view the enlightenment claims of the Kunluners as less than credible.

 

Understand that I'm quite willing, indeed eager, to suspend the belief I've just described for anyone who'd show me the courtesy of providing the evidence of a Kunlun - enlightenment relationship.

 

xeno

Edited December 4, 2007 by xenolith

[Wun Yuen Gong]

I Concur!!

[Trunk]

.. the evidence of a Kunlun - enlightenment relationship.

(Not evidence, but some theory.) If you produce nourishing pleasant 'energy', it heals the body and psyche: they are nourished and relax. When they relax, it's easier to let go. Also, the channels are more likely to open and fill, and that facilitates (but does not garuntee) Deeper Integration. Now, clearly that's not a gaurunteed detailed A-Z path (and it doesn't preclude unskilled activity along the way), but it's in a good general direction, imo.

[thelerner]

 

Understand that I'm quite willing, indeed eager, to suspend the belief I've just described for anyone who'd show me the courtesy of providing the evidence of a Kunlun - enlightenment relationship.

 

xeno

 

'Enlightenment' to me is looking more and more like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. And I'm old enough to know that rainbows are an optical illusion, they have no end.

 

There may be physical enlightenments I can achieve using physical means to open up energy channels in my body. There may be psychological enlightenments I can achieve allowing me to lose petty desires and feel truly at home in the universe, most of the time. But the big E, fuggetaboutit, at least for me.

 

Michael

[sean]

Xeno, regarding a possible mechanism for bliss leading to enlightenment, there are ecstatic traditions in most religions, though they do tend to be fringe. Spontaneous shaking, seething, writhing practices also abound in "primitive" shamanic traditions as well, including American Christianity (found predominately in arguably less educated and more tribal south). There is canonical (Pali) support to the belief that it is through progressive absorption into deeper and deeper states of bliss, ie: the jhanas (ecstatic joy), one can become enlightened. This approach is admittedly in marked contrast to the way Buddhism seems to be typically taught, at least in my limited experience, where the jhanas are considered at best a foundational practice to be skillfully abandoned for wisdom cultivating insight practice before they become addictive sensual diversions. But for more on ecstatic Buddhism, see the the many articles over at Great Western Vehicle. Note that I am not sold on any of this, just offering information on how Kunlun might operate.

 

Michael, in my opinion enlightenment is a very real possibility with fairly straightforward steps laid out by many accessible, living enlightened teachers. I think the taboo against speaking about personal realization of enlightenment (not to mention the linguistic paradoxical messiness of such a claim) is a hindrance to personal motivation, because it makes people think that enlightenment is a one in a million shot, when I believe there are many enlightened humans on the planet, barely noticeable as they often maintain very ordinary lives among us.

 

Sean