Love and Hate at the level of the heart

[Bindi]

Working on the assumption that consciousness rises progressively from lower to higher, and from duality to the one, wouldn't working on the heart (still at the level of duality) lead to opening to love and hate?  

 

Pure egoless compassion beyond hate would only be possible when consciousness is permanently operating in the higher energy centres, beyond duality - why, how could it be expected before raising consciousness to the highest levels? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

Being beyond dualities would take one to be beyond love and hate.  But compassion would remain.

[3bob]

Perhaps check the Upanishads for, "the small lotus of the heart"...

for the "Self" does not rise or fall in consciousness.

 

I'd say non-duality is also alluding to love beyond love and hate, joy beyond joy and sorrow, being beyond being and non-being, life beyond life and death, etc...  (thus the limits of the dualistic tool of mind to define and categorize can only reach so far but not pass)

[blackstar212]

I have found this to be very useful regarding love and hate.

 

From Faith in mind.

 

 

Neither love nor hate,

And you will clearly understand.

 

Acting or reacting according to the two basic emotions of love and hate is the same as treating human beings like products in a shopping mall. It is a form of picking and choosing. You become a consumer of human beings, and your relationships turn into products that gratify your needs, and that are dumped when they have lost their usefulness, or bore you, or do not fit your new image.

 

Some husbands treat their wives that way. They would discard their old wife for a newer model. Emancipation to some women mean that they can now do the same to their husbands. All kinds of psychological terminology are used to explain their consumerism: "mid-life crisis", "death fear", etc. Do you want to know the truth? Ask their discarded children. They know what it really is. You are never too young to understand desertion.

 

The passage clearly states you should not allow love to interfere if you want to understand. This is almost impossible with close friends or family. It is more possible to love and hate them simultaneously than to neither love nor hate them. That is probably why parents have such a hard time understanding their children, and children develop such warped ideas about their parents.

 

This passage has often been misunderstood. It does not say you should not love. It actually shows you how. You can only truly understand your children, or your friends, or any living creature for that matter, if you do not allow such emotions as love or hate to interfere. Only if you really understand, will you truly love - and love here is seen as real support and not a cheap emotion.

 

Easy, isn't it? And yet so difficult.

 

 

From http://www.taoism.net/theway/faith.htm

Edited October 7, 2016 by blackstar212

[Bindi]

Having arrived finally at non duality, compassion beyond love and hate may be a natural human expression, but beyond duality is not a place that most people actually operate from yet. Most of us still live here in duality, where we are subject to unconscious emotional drivers, fear, shame, guilt, hate - they exist as the socially unacceptable side of our dual selves, and in my understanding each of them have their positive counterpart, things like courage, self-pride, love. If the negative aspect of these dualistic feelings are denied and suppressed, I suspect that the positive side must be suppressed to the exact same degree. 

 

It would appear to be impossible for most people to even admit they have any negativity in them, words like compassion and beyond love and hate seem to be so much more soothing to the spiritual ego. But how can anyone get beyond love and hate without confronting both of these aspects first?  Why should the heart level with all of its emotional wealth be dismissed as unspiritual and unworthy? If each dantian has value then so too does the middle dantian -

 

The Middle Dantian collects Chi (Qi) and represents the body's reservoir for mental and emotional vibrations and energy. The energy of Man that is transformed in the Middle Dantian has a fluid quality, like water.

A refining process also takes place in the Middle Dantian, transforming the fluid energy into more steam-like energy which is then transferred to the Upper Dantian. The Middle Dantian transforms Chi (Qi) into Shen by bringing the transformed Chi (Qi) into the Heart Fire. This alchemical process is commonly called "changing Chi (Qi) into Shen" and refers to kinesthetic energy transforming into spiritual consciousness.

http://www.ichikung.com/html/dantians.php

 

I would suggest that ignoring the 'mental and emotional' level, passing over it too quickly in favour of an assumed spiritual supremacy, will result in not laying the foundations for either true spiritual consciousness or true compassion. And to not ignore it means to wrestle with and acknowledge and be able to feel all of the uncomfortable dualistic feelings, up to and including love and hate. 

Edited October 9, 2016 by Bindi

[blue eyed snake]

Working on the assumption that consciousness rises progressively from lower to higher, and from duality to the one, wouldn't working on the heart (still at the level of duality) lead to opening to love and hate?  

 

Pure egoless compassion beyond hate would only be possible when consciousness is permanently operating in the higher energy centres, beyond duality - why, how could it be expected before raising consciousness to the highest levels? 

 

 

Me thinks, when the heart starts to open itself, ' stuck' emotions will flow out of it, both of positive and of negative nature. During that process one might observe that these emotions are attachments from the ego to the other. Having more connection with the own ego/ being extensions of the own ego, they have not much connection with the perceived other. 

 

I suppose that the further along this process is, the role of these emotions diminishes and more compassion is able to manifest.

 

keyword for me is observing the emotions when they flow, accept them and see them for what they are.

[Lao Sun Tao]

Honestly, I never understood why hate is considered the opposite of love. Fear is the opposite of love. Hate feasts on fear. Hate feasts on lack of love, which is lack of compassion, which is lack of understanding and accepting, which is fear. Chakra-wise, fear closes the 1st charka and love opens the 4th chakra. Where does hate go chakra-wise?

Like a great green man from a galaxy far, far away once said, Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, and suffering . . . well, you know where that leads if you understand the reference.

 

If you want to eradicate hate then forget about your 4th chakra, you can't love anyone when you hate everyone. But you can admit you are angry, and once you've done that and you have spotted, through meditation advisably, the root of this anger you can begin . . . slowly . . . to admit to yourself, as you dig deeper inside those feelings, the root of this anger. And it won't be long before you spot the fear inside you, the one and only thing that closes up your 1st chakra, and as you begin to SURRENDER yourself to those fears, then your chakra will begin to BLOOM and blossom, and every tension and every negative feeling will just VANISH.

And it won't be long before the rest of your chakras will begin to just OPEN UP, and you realize that fear is nothing to fear about, and that love is build upon understanding and accepting, and that love, TRUE LOVE, has no equal as much as it has an opposite, just like light has no equal nor opposite, for darkness is just the absence of light, as fear is the absence of love. And hate . . . hate is merely a mixture of unrequited love and fear, which causes anger, which causes hate, which unravels the vicious circle of suffering.

 

So as light has no duality so does LOVE, and once you're one with the cosmos, one with everything, ACCEPTING everything, UNDERSTANDING everything (higher chakras opened), then begin to understand that love and light is one and the same, and that's the complete whole, and grief and sadness and fear and hate are nothing but mere shadows that try to obstruct this light. They are opposites as much as a shadow is the opposite of a tree. It's all about FOCUS and state of mind, to be able to LET this light wash over you.

It's not about understanding it or its supposed opposite. It's about understanding that you have to understand it can't be understood. It's about experiencing it. It's about taking the necessary steps (opening the chakras) to surrender to it. It's about surrendering yourself.

 

Love is letting go in the light.

[Marblehead]

I "Liked" your post Lao Sun Tao but I didn't say I agree with it.

[3bob]

formula's for this and that or trying to put everything in its correct conceptual  box?  (suggest considering chapter 20 of the T.T.C).  

[Lao Sun Tao]

I "Liked" your post Lao Sun Tao but I didn't say I agree with it.

 

It's a point of view for a path. It can work for some, it cannot for others. Just the way I see things, at the moment, and that can be changed, enhanced, or evolved in totally unforeseen ways. The more I read the more I understand I have to experience. Now, having said that, I'd really like to find out if you say you agree or disagree with this point of view and why. Right now I feel it's simple and stable as it is, but I'm open to being prodded by other views.

[Marblehead]

Well, okay.  You started out from the premise that:

 

Honestly, I never understood why hate is considered the opposite of love. Fear is the opposite of love.

 

​I do not agree with this.  Confidence is the opposite of fear and I still hold to the thought that love is the opposite of hate.

 

 

But the rest of your post followed your understanding and you did support it well.

 

I know that there are many who consider love/fear to be opposites.  They have their reasons.  It's just that I do not agree.

[3bob]

ultimately there is only one source of energy, energy that is and goes through countless transformations into various forms, with that being said one could then extrapolate that spiritual darkness is spiritual light twisted into such - thus untwist it and what do you have since it can't really be lost? In this way I'd say darkness is not a lack of light but a twisting of it.

Edited October 9, 2016 by 3bob

[blue eyed snake]

well,

 

seems to me that both the positive emotions and the negative emotions are closely related to each other.

 

many people are aware of their anger, but cannot touch the related sadness. for me it took quite a while before I could touch and dissolve the sadness and only then I became aware of the related anger. etc.

 

For positive emotions probably the same, generousness, love, kindness, etc, all closely interrelated.

 

whether they are opposites of each other, i do not think that very interesting. But where one type of emotions ' rules' there is no space for the other type. So when you're full of hate there is no space for love.

 

also, fears comes in many flavours, the fear of social problems, the fear of bodily harm, the fear of for instance small enclosures ( do not put me in one of them will you...please.... ) the fear of suffering, the fear of death. in all of them confidence that you will be able to handle your situation is indeed vital ( thanks marble). But the ways to handle them may be a little different according to the situation. In combat one can (I suppose) choose not to be the hero, but in dying one has to get along with whatever is set before one.

 

I do agree with the chakra description, but in the same vein one can say that fear saps the kidneys, saps the vitality. anger and hate will ruin the liver etc. All those processes go hand in hand.

 

My experience gave words to my last post, when you start dissolving negative emotions, you can feel the heart getting open ( and also the central channel)

 

BES

 

 

[Bindi]

Negative Emotions Are Key to Well-Being

 

Feeling sad, mad, critical or otherwise awful? Surprise: negative emotions are essential for mental health

 

A crucial goal of therapy is to learn to acknowledge and express a full range of emotions... Acknowledging the complexity of life may be an especially fruitful path to psychological well-being...

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/negative-emotions-key-well-being/

Edited October 9, 2016 by Bindi

[liminal_luke]

I wouldn´t worry about it.  My experience has been that practice helps me become the kind of person I want to be: more grounded, more loving, more happy.  Along the way of course, I have to deal with a lot of crappy blockages and resistance, but what ya gonna do -- that´s the human condition and I figure I might as well get on with it.  

 

It´s never happened, but if my practice was really making me more hateful (as opposed to simply uncovering nasty emotions that were lurking around in my subconscious in the first place), I´d can that practice and pick another.

 

Oh, and about that assumption that "consciousness rises progressively from lower to higher."  I wouldn´t be so sure.  In any case, we are culturally conditioned to go up and there´s a whole lot of important work to be done in the other direction.  (Thanks to TaoMeow for her recent post in the Working with the Spine thread about the importance of going down.)

Edited October 9, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Bindi]

I have been thinking of the chakras which likely control different specific emotions and their opposites as  being like a stuck butterfly valve in the expression of the negative in many of us, and that healing is not forcing the valve into its positive position but freeing the valve to move easily and appropriately into its positive or negative expression depending on circumstances in each moment. I might be wrong of course. 

[Bindi]

Me thinks, when the heart starts to open itself, ' stuck' emotions will flow out of it, both of positive and of negative nature. During that process one might observe that these emotions are attachments from the ego to the other. Having more connection with the own ego/ being extensions of the own ego, they have not much connection with the perceived other. 

 

I suppose that the further along this process is, the role of these emotions diminishes and more compassion is able to manifest.

 

keyword for me is observing the emotions when they flow, accept them and see them for what they are.

 

I think you are probably right, but I do wonder to what extent the process of allowing all emotions and non attachment are simultaneous or consecutive processes, as non attachment may be used to not fully engage with unpleasant feelings. 

[liminal_luke]

Love, compassion, kindness -- these are the bedrock emotional vibrations of the spirit, qualities close to the essence of who we are. These are the good vibes that remain once all the crap and blockages and psychic trauma has been stripped away over hard years of cultivation.  Hate is just a pothole on the way to immortality.

Edited October 11, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Bindi]

Jesus certainly wasn't working to the stereotype then when he referred to the Scribes and Pharisees as fools, hypocrites, blind guides, whited sepulchers, murderers, and a generation of snakes, and to the spiritually unworthy as dogs and swine. 

[dwai]

Working on the assumption that consciousness rises progressively from lower to higher, and from duality to the one, wouldn't working on the heart (still at the level of duality) lead to opening to love and hate?

 

Pure egoless compassion beyond hate would only be possible when consciousness is permanently operating in the higher energy centres, beyond duality - why, how could it be expected before raising consciousness to the highest levels?

There is only love or the absence of it. But even the absence is an illusion...there is only love

[Jeff]

There is only love or the absence of it. But even the absence is an illusion...there is only love

Or the same described in another perspective to help us remember...

 

“Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.”

‭‭John‬ ‭13:33-34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

[dawei]

I think you are probably right, but I do wonder to what extent the process of allowing all emotions and non attachment are simultaneous or consecutive processes, as non attachment may be used to not fully engage with unpleasant feelings. 

 

the bolded part... so non-attachment is to dis-engage with unpleasant feelings?

 

Are engaged and dis-engaged so different... two sides of the same coin in a sense, seeking the same outcomes on some level.

[Bindi]

Or the same described in another perspective to help us remember...

 

“Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.”

‭‭John‬ ‭13:33-34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

So just for the sake of examining the totality of the New Testament, if I say to you  "Jeff you are a fool and a hypocrite, you set yourself up as a guide yet you are blind for you are in fact a murderer and a snake", does this sound particularly loving to you? Or would there be a bevy of complaints leading to me being moderated? I imagine the Jesus that said these words was not the glossed over Christianised version that you are promoting. It would seem that he had an opinion, he believed something was wrong, and he addressed it directly, and  in this case (when referring to the scribes and pharisees) not 'lovingly'.

 

​At other times he showed compassion, and demonstrated love and concern where others wouldn't have. So either he had total access to all emotions, or he was not very spiritually advanced (or schizophrenic). Which do you reckon? 

Edited October 12, 2016 by Bindi

[Bindi]

the bolded part... so non-attachment is to dis-engage with unpleasant feelings?

 

Are engaged and dis-engaged so different... two sides of the same coin in a sense, seeking the same outcomes on some level.

 

There are a lot of possible answers to the issues brought up in your post. But I will try to answer your question 'Are engaged and dis-engaged so different'  from a medical qigong perspective for now.

 

Jerry Alan Johnson writes that "students of Medical Chi Kung also focus on the Middle Dantian in order to train themselves to release their own psycho-emotional patterns." This can only involve engagement with emotions. The greatest gain from this work in his terms may be empathy and intuition (see quote below), which is used to "become aware of the emotional components of the patient's energetic blocks and imbalances." But psycho-emotional work also creates "a line of communication... with [the] higher self" according to him.

 

If I have failed to engage with any of my unpleasant emotions, then I doubt I would be able to empathise when that unpleasant emotion appears in someone else. So the blocks and imbalances in both of us remain hidden, and the particular communication between my MDT and my higher self that is enabled by  emotional engagement cannot develop. 

 

"The Middle Dantian is also considered the "house" of emotional (empathic) feeling, communication, and awareness. Emotional communication is experienced as empathy within the Heart. This empathy is the means by which the Chi Kung doctor will most frequently become aware of the emotional components of the patient's energetic blocks and imbalances.

 

Empathic communication is felt as an emotion and originates in the Heart and Middle Dantian area. When Chi Kung doctors focus on the Middle Dantian area, a line of communication is created with their higher self. We are all born with this ability, but as we grow older we tend to override this type of emotional communication with an exaggerated dependence on the logical mind. Through shock, disappointment, denial, and lack of use, impressions slowly diminish, eventually causing us to lose this natural empathic ability of communication. We generally disconnect from this higher perception as a response to the negative and mixed messages received from our parents and from society. The way to reconnect with the intuitive self is to look inward and become one with the true self that is connected to the divine."

http://www.ichikung.com/html/dantians.php

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by Bindi

[Jeff]

So just for the sake of examining the totality of the New Testament, if I say to you  "Jeff you are a fool and a hypocrite, you set yourself up as a guide yet you are blind for you are in fact a murderer and a [/size]snake", does this sound particularly loving to you? Or would there be a bevy of complaints leading to me being moderated? I imagine the Jesus that said these words was not the glossed over Christianised version that you are promoting. It would seem that he had an opinion, he believed something was wrong, and he addressed it directly, and  in this case (when referring to the scribes and pharisees) not 'lovingly'. [/size]

 

​At other times he showed compassion, and demonstrated love and concern where others wouldn't have. So either he had total access to all emotions, or he was not very spiritually advanced (or schizophrenic). Which do you reckon? [/size]

Bindi,

 

These words make sense in context. Jesus is not saying that he hates people, he is explaining about how the scribes and Pharisees had misled the masses to gather power for themselves and how it is terribly wrong to mislead others like that. To me, the words in this section are best summed up by Jesus as "cleanse first that which is within".

 

Below, your paraphrased quotes in context...

 

“Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:1-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

Regards,

Jeff