Love and Hate at the level of the heart

[Cheshire Cat]

Osho also says that at its root the love of Jesus is sex energy...

 

The root of love is sex for everyone. That's why children don't fall in love for each other.

 

Also, the root of Osho is love... love for sex.

[Jeff]

What's wrong with getting angry once in awhile?  Maybe Jesus had a lot of sex with Mary, too.  Jesus pooped, too, and needed to eat.  All natural functions.  Still can be a Son of God, or a human, or both, regardless.

Definitely nothing wrong with getting angry and having sex, but in your tradition, is it possible to heal others (physically restore a hand) when your own mind is filled with anger? Or does such healing require clarity of mind?

 

Thanks.

[thetaoiseasy]

In our tradition, we cannot physically restore a hand, turn water into wine, or cure a leper -- no matter if we are angry or have a clear mind.  We do not have the ability.  We value naturalness the most, which includes the entire spectrum of emotions, failings, successes and virtue.  Our greatest miracle, and challenge, is to help a twisted psychology.

[Bindi]

Definitely nothing wrong with getting angry and having sex, but in your tradition, is it possible to heal others (physically restore a hand) when your own mind is filled with anger? Or does such healing require clarity of mind?

 

Thanks.

 

If a person operates entirely as a channel for healing, with no personal input other than that the appropriate channels have been cleared, then their own emotions will have little effect on their ability to heal no matter what they are feeling. If someone is required to direct that healing energy in any way mentally, then they might need a particular sort of clarity of mind or emotion to avoid being distracted or whatever else might block the healing.  

[Bindi]

 Jesus the emotional man...

[The gospels] describe the full range of human emotions that Jesus felt – love, joy, grief, compassion, anger, gratitude, wonder,  and desire (see Mark 10:21; John 11:5; Luke 10:21; John 11:33-36; Matt. 20:34; Mark 1:41; 3:5; 8:6; Luke 7:9; 22:15).


The Gospels say, too, that he experienced those darker emotions of a troubled human soul – loneliness, perplexity, alarm, dismay, and despondency (Mark 14:33; Luke 12:50; John 12:27). 
 
And the Gospels also relate that Jesus at times gave way to these emotions and expressed his feelings physically – he wept (John 11:35),he even wailed (Luke 19:41), he sighed (Mark 7:34), he groaned (Mark 8:12), he flashed angry glares at people (Mark 3:5), he spoke with annoyance in his voice (Mark 10:14), or with chiding words (Mark 3:12). On occasion Jesus broke out in a rage (John 11:33, 38 as the Greek makes clear), or openly exulted (Luke 10:21), or cried aloud in utter desolation (Matt. 27:46). ‘Nothing is lacking [here in the Gospels] to make the impression strong that we have before us in Jesus a human being like ourselves.
 
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/robertcrosby/2012/06/the-emotional-jesus-his-ups-downs/

It doesn't seem to me that Jesus practised the non-attachment or de-attachment that Buddha promoted.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Bindi

[Bindi]

The root of love is sex for everyone. That's why children don't fall in love for each other.

 

Also, the root of Osho is love... love for sex.

 

The root of love is sex for everyone.

 

This is a topic that I've never thought about in these simple terms before, and as I haven't come to any conclusions myself yet I can't respond, but It would be interesting to see what other people thought about this. 

[Stosh]

Don't kids love their parents, pets, siblings ,friends, stuffed toys,and even blankets? Imo love is a more basic principle which sometimes is related to sex. I dont think the other view was well thought out, and wouldnt entertain it long.

[Jeff]

Jesus the emotional man...

 

It doesn't seem to me that Jesus practised the non-attachment or de-attachment that Buddha promoted.

I am not arguing that Jesus did not experience emotions, just saying that the books/site you seem to be quoting are definitely taking verses out of context and hence giving a misleading meaning. As an example, look at the first verse you have quoted from Mark in context...

 

“And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.”

‭‭Mark‬ ‭10:17-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

In the verse you have quoted, It is not Jesus who is sad and grieved, it is the man who came running to Jesus. He is sad and grieved because Jesus tells him to sell his stuff and give it to the poor, and he doesn't want to do it (had great possessions).

Edited October 16, 2016 by Jeff

[Jeff]

If a person operates entirely as a channel for healing, with no personal input other than that the appropriate channels have been cleared, then their own emotions will have little effect on their ability to heal no matter what they are feeling. If someone is required to direct that healing energy in any way mentally, then they might need a particular sort of clarity of mind or emotion to avoid being distracted or whatever else might block the healing.

 

One cannot heal beyond their own clarity. Subconscious issues and fears block/limit the potential for healing. If someone is angry, they are trapped in their own individual sense of self. In such a state, the energy gets wrapped up in the personal anger issues and you just end up sending the anger energy to others.

[Bindi]

I am not arguing that Jesus did not experience emotions, just saying that the books you seem to be quoting are definitely taking verses out of context and hence giving a misleading meaning. As an example, look at the first verse you have quoted from Mark in context...

 

“And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.”

‭‭Mark‬ ‭10:17-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

In the verse you have quoted, It is not Jesus who is sad and grieved, it is the man who came running to Jesus. He is sad and grieved because Jesus tells him to sell his stuff and give it to the poor, and he doesn't want to do it (had great possessions).

 

Mark 10:21, which was the reference, is referring to Jesus's love, not sadness

 

Mark 10:21 King James Version (KJV)

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

 

Mark 10:22, which was not referenced, refers to the man's sadness, yes. 

 

Mark 10:22 King James Version (KJV)

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Bindi

[Jeff]

Mark 10:21, which was the reference, is referring to Jesus's love, not sadness

 

Mark 10:21 King James Version (KJV)

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

 

Mark 10:22, which was not referenced, refers to the man's sadness, yes. 

 

Mark 10:22 King James Version (KJV)

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Ok, thanks. Yes, we can agree that Jesus loved others...

[Jetsun]

One cannot heal beyond their own clarity.

This isn't true in my experience, one can through devotion or submission to a higher power become a vessel for that intelligence to do the healing. For example the healer who probably comes closest to Christ in terms of miracle healing is John of God, and he does it through submitting to the intelligence and skill of Master spirits and allowing them to work through him rather than him being enlightenmed himself.

[blue eyed snake]

sometimes I wonder what Jesus would think of your squabbling about his words and actions

[blue eyed snake]

and about healing and negative emotions.

 

me thinks, when one has the ability to be used as an instrument for the healing power, then healing can pass through ones body and go out at ones hands.

 

i know i had healing hands as a child and young woman, i also know that i was full of crap.

 

I do agree with the notion that when the amount of negativity gets smaller, the body may become more suitable to act as a channel/ an instrument for healing. But now that i read this thread ( thanks Bindi, a most interesting one) it comes to me that there are indeed ever new layers of negativity/impurity to become aware of and then dissolved. When you dissolve deep emotions, they literally need to come out of your body, but at the same time no harm may be done on others.

 

maybe..I think now...a pitfall can be to think that you're done with your negativity because ( healing) powers have started to happen.

 

but then you may obstruct our own development, which wants you to go ever deeper. And i do agree that the more pure ones bodymind is, the better suited to be a channel.

 

 

[Jeff]

This isn't true in my experience, one can through devotion or submission to a higher power become a vessel for that intelligence to do the healing. For example the healer who probably comes closest to Christ in terms of miracle healing is John of God, and he does it through submitting to the intelligence and skill of Master spirits and allowing them to work through him rather than him being enlightenmed himself.

If one is able to submit to a higher power, then they have the clarity for the flow. To truly submit, one must have let go of the fears, issues and obstructions (individual sense of self) that would have blocked the connection, otherwise they would not be able to become the vessel.

[blue eyed snake]

This isn't true in my experience, one can through devotion or submission to a higher power become a vessel for that intelligence to do the healing. For example the healer who probably comes closest to Christ in terms of miracle healing is John of God, and he does it through submitting to the intelligence and skill of Master spirits and allowing them to work through him rather than him being enlightenmed himself.

 

ah, read that only after my post, you put it much better then I did, it's indeed submitting to a higher power which then works through your body

[Bindi]

sometimes I wonder what Jesus would think of your squabbling about his words and actions

 

Jesus himself came from a culture that liked to debate, probably he'd be either cheering from the sidelines or wanting to get directly involved. 

 

and about healing and negative emotions.

 

me thinks, when one has the ability to be used as an instrument for the healing power, then healing can pass through ones body and go out at ones hands.

 

i know i had healing hands as a child and young woman, i also know that i was full of crap.

 

I do agree with the notion that when the amount of negativity gets smaller, the body may become more suitable to act as a channel/ an instrument for healing. But now that i read this thread ( thanks Bindi, a most interesting one) it comes to me that there are indeed ever new layers of negativity/impurity to become aware of and then dissolved. When you dissolve deep emotions, they literally need to come out of your body, but at the same time no harm may be done on others.

 

maybe..I think now...a pitfall can be to think that you're done with your negativity because ( healing) powers have started to happen.

 

but then you may obstruct our own development, which wants you to go ever deeper. And i do agree that the more pure ones bodymind is, the better suited to be a channel.

 

Yes, full of crap yet able to heal   I was thinking, perhaps healing is allowing qi or maybe at higher levels shen to pass through the body and out of the hands, which is a completely different system to the emotional system. The more the channels are cleared, the more qi or shen may pass through. If the channels are completely clear, perhaps true shen may pass through, and very powerful healing may be effected, but at no point would emotions be passed through.

[blue eyed snake]

If one is able to submit to a higher power, then they have the clarity for the flow. To truly submit, one must have let go of the fears, issues and obstructions (individual sense of self) that would have blocked the connection, otherwise they would not be able to become the vessel.

 

yeah...well...

I do not agree

 

I've never thought about it, until now. but as i said, when younger i had definite healing powers, and i was full of crap, more given to temper-tantrums even than the average child (and with good reason i can see now)

 

But I could become a channel for er..the divine or something. And thinking back that happened like...er I think i temporarily let go of the me-sense. i remember it as sort of ' standing beside/behind myself' . but very different from dissociating, which feels totally different. And i was very aware that it was not me doing the healing, but that it happened through me.

 

now I'm definitely not a saintly figure, just a simple bum, but I suppose the principle remains the same

[Jeff]

yeah...well...

I do not agree

 

I've never thought about it, until now. but as i said, when younger i had definite healing powers, and i was full of crap, more given to temper-tantrums even than the average child (and with good reason i can see now)

 

But I could become a channel for er..the divine or something. And thinking back that happened like...er I think i temporarily let go of the me-sense. i remember it as sort of ' standing beside/behind myself' . but very different from dissociating, which feels totally different. And i was very aware that it was not me doing the healing, but that it happened through me.

 

now I'm definitely not a saintly figure, just a simple bum, but I suppose the principle remains the same

Ok, no problem on disagreeing.

 

Also, I am not saying "saintly", just relative clarity across various frequencies/channels.

 

Did you ever do any of that healing while you were in the middle of a temper tantrum? Or, was it when your mind was quiet and as you said let go of your "me-sense"? (My original point was that Jesus could not have been angry or having a temper tantrum and healed the guys hand.)

 

Additionally, as we have discussed before, I would definitely believe that you could heal/channel as a child.

[Jeff]

Jesus himself came from a culture that liked to debate, probably he'd be either cheering from the sidelines or wanting to get directly involved. 

 

Yes, full of crap yet able to heal   I was thinking, perhaps healing is allowing qi or maybe at higher levels shen to pass through the body and out of the hands, which is a completely different system to the emotional system. The more the channels are cleared, the more qi or shen may pass through. If the channels are completely clear, perhaps true shen may pass through, and very powerful healing may be effected, but at no point would emotions be passed through.

Makes sense.

 

But, in Taoist terms one must refine the energy to raise it to the higher levels. That refinement requires one to let go of those issues and fears (become sagelike) to be able to access and process higher energies. One does not skip dantiens, you fill (clear stuff) and move higher.

[3bob]

hate is never at the +4 heart level (so to speak), being that it and its cousins are at the levels below the root Chakra which could be called the -1 through -7 level at the feet.   Btw, it is said that an enlightened beings new root becomes the +7 chakra (with there being more beyond that....)   

[dawei]

yeah...well...

I do not agree

 

I've never thought about it, until now. but as i said, when younger i had definite healing powers, and i was full of crap, more given to temper-tantrums even than the average child (and with good reason i can see now)

 

But I could become a channel for er..the divine or something. And thinking back that happened like...er I think i temporarily let go of the me-sense. i remember it as sort of ' standing beside/behind myself' . but very different from dissociating, which feels totally different. And i was very aware that it was not me doing the healing, but that it happened through me.

 

now I'm definitely not a saintly figure, just a simple bum, but I suppose the principle remains the same

 

I tend to agree with this in the sense that one can be 'full of crap' but can let go even temporarily of stuff to be more of an open conduit.  As you said, let go of the me-sense

[Bindi]

hate is never at the +4 heart level (so to speak), being that it and its cousins are at the levels below the root Chakra which could be called the -1 through -7 level at the feet.   Btw, it is said that an enlightened beings new root becomes the +7 chakra (with there being more beyond that....)   

 

What about anger at the +4 heart level? 

[Cheshire Cat]

Makes sense.

 

But, in Taoist terms one must refine the energy to raise it to the higher levels. That refinement requires one to let go of those issues and fears (become sagelike) to be able to access and process higher energies. One does not skip dantiens, you fill (clear stuff) and move higher.

In fact, I'm not aware of any qigong masters who can do the same miracles that Jesus (allegedly) did.

 

Maybe, to measure Jesus feats by the means of chinese alchemical concepts is just plainly wrong...

[3bob]

Bindi, what about "tough love" at the +4 heart level,  is such anger as in an ego being angry that things are not in line with what it wants?  (different)

Edited October 17, 2016 by 3bob