Love and Hate at the level of the heart

[Jeff]

When it comes to the teachings on anger that is one thing in some Buddhist scriptures I don't agree with, I think modern psychology has a far healthier relationship to it by accepting it's place and function. It is probably a distortion of the teachings or something inserted to disempower people to tell them they should never get angry.

When the mind is quiet, is it possible to become angry?

[Jetsun]

When the mind is quiet, is it possible to become angry?

Well anger can arise at any time, it doesn't have to disturb awareness or take your identity. But what I mean is in daily life anger arises once in a while in everyone, if you have a liver there can be anger, so what use is a Sutra which says you should never get angry or you will go to hell for it? It's just guilt tripping to control people

[Jeff]

Well anger can arise at any time, it doesn't have to disturb awareness or take your identity. But what I mean is in daily life anger arises once in a while in everyone, if you have a liver there can be anger, so what use is a Sutra which says you should never get angry or you will go to hell for it? It's just guilt tripping to control people

I think you need to take the sutra that I quoted in context of the text of the Dhammapada. The text follows sort of a progression of early stuff and ends with describing the state of a true master. Dropping anger is not an early stage thing, but as one progresses and drops issues and fears, the mind naturally quiets and there increasingly becomes less things that cause automated subconscious anger responses.

 

I am sure that you and all spiritual practioners have noticed that things that once made you mad/angry, with maturity can become kind of silly, and then even sort of funny. With increasing mental clarity, things like anger naturally drop.

[Bindi]

The people giving your bible study are obviously not familiar with things like energy healing. As any healer can tell you, it is not possible to heal someone when in a state of anger (certainly not at the level of rebuilding lost tissue and bone). For such healing, in Christian terms, one must be "one with God" and in that state, the mind is quiet with no individual sense of self to be angry.

 

All healers of any tradition will tell you the same thing. No anger with healing.

 

And nonetheless this is how the incident was recorded, Jesus was angry, and then soon after he healed the man's hand. Your speculation as to what is and isn't possible in terms of being one with God, healing and anger remain merely that, speculation, which is not borne out by this bible passage. 

[doc benway]

Well anger can arise at any time, it doesn't have to disturb awareness or take your identity. But what I mean is in daily life anger arises once in a while in everyone, if you have a liver there can be anger, so what use is a Sutra which says you should never get angry or you will go to hell for it? It's just guilt tripping to control people

 

I think we can look at the meaning in different ways.

 

One interpretation is the scripture as an admonition from some authority figure - "you should never get angry or you will go to hell!"

That in and of itself is an expression of anger in a way, at least it feels that way to me.

 

Another interpretation is an invitation to look at our anger as it arises and to be mindful enough to be aware of the inherent potential of it's consequences with respect to our health, our relationships, our past and future.

For me it is not so much someone saying you should do or not do but rather, be aware.

Anger will arise for sure, this is not about suppression.

When it does arise, it is an opportunity to recognize that it is not who and what we are. We do not need to fuel it and identify with it. Indulging it generally has toxic consequences.

When anger arises, we work with it in different ways depending on the vehicle.

The sutric approach is to make use of an antidote to dis-identify and neutralize.

The tantric approach, with which I'm least familiar, is to transform it through seeing it is a manifestation of our inherent perfection.

The dzogchen approach is to do nothing to block it or push it, to allow it without adding, subtracting, or altering in any way. In that way, we are simply space and awareness and it has no place to take hold or stain us and it naturally liberates itself.

 

I don't mean to be defensive about scripture but my approach has become that when I disagree with scripture, I maintain the possibility that it is not so much that the scripture is mistaken or misleading but that I'm not currently in a place where it I can appreciate it's message or perhaps the message is not currently speaking to or applicable to me. Best then to leave it rather than create a mindset that labels it as wrong.

 

Just my current and imperfect perspective.

 

Feeling much love on this perfect day!

 

_/\_

[Bindi]

I think you need to take the sutra that I quoted in context of the text of the Dhammapada. The text follows sort of a progression of early stuff and ends with describing the state of a true master. Dropping anger is not an early stage thing, but as one progresses and drops issues and fears, the mind naturally quiets and there increasingly becomes less things that cause automated subconscious anger responses.

 

I am sure that you and all spiritual practioners have noticed that things that once made you mad/angry, with maturity can become kind of silly, and then even sort of funny. With increasing mental clarity, things like anger naturally drop.

 

So how do you explain Jesus's angry reaction to the business being conducted at the temple?

 

 

John 2:15

 

And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables

[Marblehead]

I guess he just lost his cool.  Happens sometimes.

[liminal_luke]

 

Anger will arise for sure, this is not about suppression.

When it does arise, it is an opportunity to recognize that it is not who and what we are. We do not need to fuel it and identify with it. Indulging it generally has toxic consequences.

 

 

Whose angry?

[doc benway]

Whose angry?

 

Precisely!

[Jetsun]

One way of looking at it is that anger is protecting something, so at least from its own perspective it is doing something compassionate. Getting in touch of the love behind this dynamic can soften things enough for the more tender and hurt feelings to emerge, and from there it can be enquired whether there is actually anything to protect or whether the anger is operating from old outdated beliefs, programming and defences which are no longer appropriate.

 

Just thought I'd add a practical way of working with anger seeing as we're on the subject.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Jetsun

[doc benway]

So how do you explain Jesus's angry reaction to the business being conducted at the temple?

 

 

John 2:15

 

And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables

 

Did Jesus act out of anger or out of love?

Were his actions out of control, a characteristic of anger, or a measured and appropriate response to the situation?

Was he consumed by his anger or using it as a thermometer to help adjust his loving and caring response?

 

I think the story gives us a model for our own response.

We see something that is unhelpful, unfair, irresponsible - our 'righteous' anger tells us it is not acceptable.

We respond with emotional intelligence and love rather than hate and vengeance.

Amputating a limb can be a loving action.

Rebelling against abuse, injuring a rapist or murderer, these can all be expressions of love. 

Fascinating to explore these things!

 

Anger is and will always be a part of human experience.

We need to be careful not to focus too much on the absolute truth of existence and the relative truth.

Both exist side by side. It is our job to find the harmony and balance.

[Jonesboy]

Have you ever raised your voice to someone, maybe your kids to get their attention but you really were't angry? Maybe you do so to help get your point across to them, to let them know this is a serious issue, yet inside you were not upset?

 

The story in the bible about Jesus in the Temple is much the same way.

[cheya]

The Rajneesh Neo-Tarot deck* is a collection of teaching stories from different spiritual traditions. Osho used these stories to give insight into various spiritual concepts like love, surrender, greed, anger, courage, etc.  

 

So, to examine compassion, Osho used the story of Jesus, in the temple, with a whip.

Compassion, not anger.

 

Osho says "Compassion is not having a bleeding heart full of sympathy for others— compassion is such a depth of love that one is willing to do whatever it takes to bring awareness to a situation."

 

Further on, he says, "Christians avoid this story. There is no need to avoid it if you understand this sutra of Buddha:

       For an unwounded hand may handle poison.

       The innocent come to no harm.

 

Jesus is absolutely innocent! He is not violent, he is not destructive— it is his compassion, it is his love. The whip in his hands is the whip in the hands of love."

 

 

 

*Latest edition is called Osho Transformation Tarot

 

[Jeff]

The Rajneesh Neo-Tarot deck is a collection of teaching stories from different spiritual traditions. Osho used these stories to give insight into various spiritual concepts like love, surrender, greed, anger, courage, etc.  

 

So, to examine compassion, Osho used the story of Jesus, in the temple, with a whip.

Compassion, not anger.

 

Osho says "Compassion is not having a bleeding heart full of sympathy for others— compassion is such a depth of love that one is willing to do whatever it takes to bring awareness to a situation."

 

Further on, he says, "Christians avoid this story. There is no need to avoid it if you understand this sutra of Buddha:

       For an unwounded hand may handle poison.

       The innocent come to no harm.

 

Jesus is absolutely innocent! He is not violent, he is not destructive— it is his compassion, it is his love. The whip in his hands is the whip in the hands of love."

 

 

 

Very well said.  Also, as Jonesboy pointed out...

 

Ever yelled at or punished your kids to stop them from doing something stupid... When deep down you are laughing because you remember when you did the same thing yourself at their age?

[blue eyed snake]

 

— compassion is such a depth of love that one is willing to do whatever it takes to bring awareness to a situation."

 

 

i'm not very fond of Osho,

 

but this is a quote that comes into my heart

[Marblehead]

When the mind is quiet, is it possible to become angry?

 

Damned deep question.  I would suggest "No".  But this is based on my understanding of Chuang Tzu.  I don't believe I have ever attained such a state.

[Bindi]

The Rajneesh Neo-Tarot deck* is a collection of teaching stories from different spiritual traditions. Osho used these stories to give insight into various spiritual concepts like love, surrender, greed, anger, courage, etc.  

 

So, to examine compassion, Osho used the story of Jesus, in the temple, with a whip.

Compassion, not anger.

 

Osho says "Compassion is not having a bleeding heart full of sympathy for others— compassion is such a depth of love that one is willing to do whatever it takes to bring awareness to a situation."

 

Further on, he says, "Christians avoid this story. There is no need to avoid it if you understand this sutra of Buddha:

       For an unwounded hand may handle poison.

       The innocent come to no harm.

 

Jesus is absolutely innocent! He is not violent, he is not destructive— it is his compassion, it is his love. The whip in his hands is the whip in the hands of love."

 

 

 

*Latest edition is called Osho Transformation Tarot

 

Osho also says that at its root the love of Jesus is sex energy...

 

... the root of spiritual realization is nothing but sex. Sex is the energy. It is the only energy the living beings have got. The energy can be transformed, it can become a higher energy. The higher it moves, the lesser and lesser sexuality remains in it. There is an end peak where it becomes simply love and compassion. This ultimate flowering is the divine energy, but the root remains sex. This energy cannot be killed. No energy can be killed – energy can only be transformed... This energy is mysterious till it is used only as a biological reproductive force. It becomes divine once it is freed from biological bondage. This divine energy is nothing but the love of Jesus or compassion of Buddha.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3705694/#ref17

 

He had his perspective on things, but I wouldn’t choose to take him as an authority on the source and nature of Jesus’s compassion. 

[liminal_luke]

When the mind is quiet, is it possible to become angry?

 

Put me down as a "yes."  When the mind is quiet anger passes through the body as light through a crystal.

Edited October 14, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Jeff]

Put me down as a "yes."  When the mind is quiet anger passes through the body as light through a crystal.

Then that is energy passing through (as it should) and not experienced as anger. Anger happens when that energy hits some stored issue or fear and creates a subconscious reaction.

[Bindi]

Have you ever raised your voice to someone, maybe your kids to get their attention but you really were't angry? Maybe you do so to help get your point across to them, to let them know this is a serious issue, yet inside you were not upset?

 

The story in the bible about Jesus in the Temple is much the same way.

 

When I take the bull whip to them and drive them out of the house after throwing their pocket money all over the garden, oddly they seem to get a bit offended, they mustn't realise how much love and compassion I feel for them in those moments. 

[liminal_luke]

Then that is energy passing through (as it should) and not experienced as anger. Anger happens when that energy hits some stored issue or fear and creates a subconscious reaction.

 

You might be right.  Never having quieted my mind, I wouldn´t know.

[Jonesboy]

When I take the bull whip to them and drive them out of the house after throwing their pocket money all over the garden, oddly they seem to get a bit offended, they mustn't realise how much love and compassion I feel for them in those moments.

I would call that abuse.

 

Jesus never hit anyone.

[thetaoiseasy]

What's wrong with getting angry once in awhile?  Maybe Jesus had a lot of sex with Mary, too.  Jesus pooped, too, and needed to eat.  All natural functions.  Still can be a Son of God, or a human, or both, regardless.

[Bindi]

I would call that abuse.

 

Jesus never hit anyone.

 

This is your opinion versus 2 millennia of Christian thought and art 

 

John 2:15

 

And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2016 by Bindi

[Bindi]

What's wrong with getting angry once in awhile?  Maybe Jesus had a lot of sex with Mary, too.  Jesus pooped, too, and needed to eat.  All natural functions.  Still can be a Son of God, or a human, or both, regardless.

 

Nothing wrong with sex per se, but whether sex energy is the only energy there is and therefore at the root of love and compassion and spiritual realisation is debatable.