the question that haunts me

[Orion]

Humanity will survive just not at the current numbers. Expect major die offs in the next 50-100 years, probably on a catastrophic scale. Either our survival limitations will greet us, or the collapse of worldwide ecosystems will. The writing is on the wall.

 

But will we go extinct? Doubtful.

 

I'm inclined to believe some of the more ancient scriptures that talk about how humanity is stuck in a cycle. I think we need to slough off this horrible paradigm we're currently stuck in, and once we do that we will return to a more equitable way of living. I just hope there's an actual planet left to thrive on. For instance according to the Vedic calendar, the Kaliuga (which we are currently in) involves a zenith period where it is very hard to find food and water, and there is great suffering.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

I think everyone has made some great points.

 

When I think of the question "will humankind survive?"

 

I think of this:  Can humankind come up with a solution that is not worse than any of the problems?

 

Sometimes I wonder if just leaving things alone is the solution.  Could it be that simple?

[Marblehead]

 

 

I think of this:  Can humankind come up with a solution that is not worse than any of the problems?

 

Governments don't do well at this.

 

Sometimes I wonder if just leaving things alone is the solution.  Could it be that simple?

 

Well, that's what Chuang Tzu suggested.

 

[Karl]

The question that haunts me is whether I should wait in the sitting room or sit in the waiting room, or why time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana ?

 

There are some mysteries even the Gubermint cannot solve.

[blackstar212]

Will humankind survive?

Forever? No we will go extinct as a species eventually just not sure when.

[blackstar212]

This talk makes me sick. Really, this is filth.

 

Back up your claims. You are as bad as anyone else on here you accuse of having unfounded beliefs. When it comes down to it, you never back it up. I have continuously provided evidence, in every topically similar discussion, and I don't recall seeing any evidence to the contrary, or any evidence suggesting that I or others like me are "anti-capitalist" or that my apparent "anti-capitalism" is going to make us all die.

That is because it is false. Many tribes around the world live wonderfully and do not have capitalism at all.

[blue eyed snake]

This talk makes me sick. Really, this is filth.

 

Back up your claims. You are as bad as anyone else on here you accuse of having unfounded beliefs. When it comes down to it, you never back it up. I have continuously provided evidence, in every topically similar discussion, and I don't recall seeing any evidence to the contrary, or any evidence suggesting that I or others like me are "anti-capitalist" or that my apparent "anti-capitalism" is going to make us all die.

 

he cannot backup his claims Dusty, don't let him get your smile away.

 

take a look at these San people, feel their peace of mind 

 

haver you ever seen the movie : " the gods must be crazy", I recommend it warmly

[Karl]

That is because it is false. Many tribes around the world live wonderfully and do not have capitalism at all.

Which tribes ? And what do you consider 'living wonderfully' when compared to your current standard of living ?

[Karl]

he cannot backup his claims Dusty, don't let him get your smile away.

 

take a look at these San people, feel their peace of mind 

 

haver you ever seen the movie : " the gods must be crazy", I recommend it warmly

You should try researching the current problems experienced by the San people.

 

When I was in Peru we visited a tribal village deep in the heart of the Amazon. There were no youth in the village. They told us that the young wanted the modern world and left the village as soon as they could. The old people were paid to stay in the village and give a show for tourists, but had long ago adopted the modern way of life.

 

The modern world isn't a monster, but it does present a threat to village life. It's difficult for these tribes to adapt, but if that cannot they are quickly overwhelmed.

 

It may well be your view that we should have stayed in the Stone Age and been happy with it, but this really does mean that you have an inability to grasp the need for every human to improve their circumstances with respect to survival and happiness. Despite all the talk of poverty being good, the reality is that as soon as people get the opportunity they will migrate rapidly to areas which have capitalism. There is a reason we have large cities, because people are attracted to the potential of improving their lives. They move from rural poor areas because living in poverty is clearly not attractive.

[blackstar212]

You should try researching the current problems experienced by the San people.

 

When I was in Peru we visited a tribal village deep in the heart of the Amazon. There were no youth in the village. They told us that the young wanted the modern world and left the village as soon as they could. The old people were paid to stay in the village and give a show for tourists, but had long ago adopted the modern way of life.

 

The modern world isn't a monster, but it does present a threat to village life. It's difficult for these tribes to adapt, but if that cannot they are quickly overwhelmed.

 

It may well be your view that we should have stayed in the Stone Age and been happy with it, but this really does mean that you have an inability to grasp the need for every human to improve their circumstances with respect to survival and happiness. Despite all the talk of poverty being good, the reality is that as soon as people get the opportunity they will migrate rapidly to areas which have capitalism. There is a reason we have large cities, because people are attracted to the potential of improving their lives. They move from rural poor areas because living in poverty is clearly not attractive.

There are many tribes around the world. My prediction is they will be around long after so-called "civilized" people are gone.

 

I do not necessarily believe in staying "primitive" but I do believe tribal anarchy is the very best system far superior to capitalism. Cooperation instead of selfishness.

 

When the men in a tribe go out to fish and one of the men catches far more fish than the others he is not greedy and take more. It all goes in the community pot. This is the way it is supposed to be.

 

I truly believe one day we will achieve close to the "star trek" world. Capitalism will not be a part of this.

[Karl]

It's superior how ? No one develops beyond the stage of the basic division of labour. Where is the enlightenment in toiling all day just to have enough to eat ? Where are the great works of music, the concertos, the beautiful paintings, sculpture, architecture. Where are the great writers and infinite variety of abundant foods and medicines ? primitive cultures cling to life.

 

Everytime you say 'greedy' you reveal your hand. Like all champagne socialists you want your cake and eat it. You live in a capitalist world with all the benefits and opportunities that brings, then you condemn it for what you believe is greed. You make no effort to go and live the life you praise so much whilst enjoying capitalism. It's completely phoney. You are worse because you praise sacrifice whilst refusing to comitt to it, then you condemn life whilst accepting all it brings. You a sham and a fraud. It is people like you that are destroying capitalism like a disease, eating it from the inside like a parasite that refuses to leave.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Karl

[Brian]

Not go extinct.

 

The greatest threat to humankind's survival is definitely war, weapons of mass destruction, terrorism, etc.

Ah.

 

While the world's stockpile of thermonuclear weapons (and some other variations we don't talk about) makes the possibility of turning the planet into desolate wasteland for a few thousand years a distinct reality, I suspect it is a fairly remote one. More likely, in my opinion, is a limited exchange which doesn't wipe out all the more complex and fragile life forms (like humans, for instance). Even if 99.9% of the human population were killed in a flash, that would still leave millions of us to continue reproducing.

 

Eventually, the sun will start to die and will take the planet with it but that is so far in the future that it seems almost a certainty we will have started to spread across the galaxy by then.

 

The greatest threat to survival of the species, in my opinion, is Earth taking a direct hit by a large object (or series of relatively large ones).

 

There are lots of things which could disrupt modern society by varying degrees, mind you, but I think a major astronomical event is the only one likely to cause human extinction.

[blackstar212]

It's superior how ? No one develops beyond the stage of the basic division of labour. Where is the enlightenment in toiling all day just to have enough to eat ? Where are the great works of music, the concertos, the beautiful paintings, sculpture, architecture. Where are the great writers and infinite variety of abundant foods and medicines ? primitive cultures cling to life.

 

Everytime you say 'greedy' you reveal your hand. Like all champagne socialists you want your cake and eat it. You live in a capitalist world with all the benefits and opportunities that brings, then you condemn it for what you believe is greed. You make no effort to go and live the life you praise so much whilst enjoying capitalism. It's completely phoney. You are worse because you praise sacrifice whilst refusing to comitt to it, then you condemn life whilst accepting all it brings. You a sham and a fraud. It is people like you that are destroying capitalism like a disease, eating it from the inside like a parasite that refuses to leave.

Toil all day LOL. The tribes have more leisure time than we do.

 

Reminds me of a little joke I read.

 

Indian Chief "Two Eagles" was asked by a white U.S. Government

official, "You have observed the white man for 90 years . You've seen

his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the

damage he's done."

>

> The Chief nodded in agreement.

>

> The official continued, "Considering all these events, in your

opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

>

> The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then

calmly replied:

>

> "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt,

plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine man

free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; All night having sex.'

>

> Then the chief leaned back and smiled "Only white man dumb enough to

think he could improve system like that."

[blue eyed snake]

There are many tribes around the world. My prediction is they will be around long after so-called "civilized" people are gone.

 

I do not necessarily believe in staying "primitive" but I do believe tribal anarchy is the very best system far superior to capitalism. Cooperation instead of selfishness.

 

When the men in a tribe go out to fish and one of the men catches far more fish than the others he is not greedy and take more. It all goes in the community pot. This is the way it is supposed to be.

 

I truly believe one day we will achieve close to the "star trek" world. Capitalism will not be a part of this.

 

thank you, I'dd like to add some.

 

both the Inuit and the Sanpeople were, of old, known as the happiest people of the world. I'm well aware that that is not so anymore, but that happened after the invasion of western people.

 

happiness does not consist only of material wealth, yes, just as all animals we need food , drink and a safe house to live in. Without romanticizing, there were probably a lot of less nice things too

 

the big difference i see is in the way they were able to have enduring attachments to each other, deep friendships, real connections, both with the people of their tribe and with the nature that was their home. It's this ability to connect that we have lost in the west, it's this ability that my teacher tries to wake up in his students.

 

to be truly human means to be able to connect, to have friends, to love, to laugh and to cry bitterly, together.

In our material wealth we have lost that ability to really connect

 

---

 

And these tribes of old were in general careful with their environment, 

 

It was not the Inuit that killed of such large amounts of seal and whales, it were (in part) my kinsman the Dutch

 

think of the bison, it was not the redmen that killed off those enormous herds of bison, it was the white man who killed them off, for sport....

 

 

 

there are many examples like this, it was the western men that corrupted tribes that had lived in balance in their habitat, it was western man that destroyed those habitats, that brought illnesses and bad food.

 

In their arrogance, deeming those people primitive, without being able to recognize the strength of their ways of living.

[Karl]

Actually the bison were deliberately hunted down in order to end the savage attacks of the Comanche Indians (think I've got the right tribe there, but can't check just now). The Government offered good money for every buffalo hide and the hunters set to work with merry abandon.

 

The Indians did not respect property rights which makes it difficult to try and negotiate with them.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Karl

[blackstar212]

Actually the bison were deliberately hunted down in order to end the savage attacks of the Cherokee Indians (think I've got the right tribe there, but can't check just now). The Government offered good money for every buffalo hide and the hunters set to work with merry abandon.

 

The Indians did not respect property rights which makes it difficult to try and negotiate with them.

Oh the irony.

[Brian]

Actually the bison were deliberately hunted down in order to end the savage attacks of the Cherokee Indians (think I've got the right tribe there, but can't check just now). The Government offered good money for every buffalo hide and the hunters set to work with merry abandon.

 

The Indians did not respect property rights which makes it difficult to try and negotiate with them.

Actually, you ought to do some research on this...

[Karl]

Toil all day LOL. The tribes have more leisure time than we do.Reminds me of a little joke I read.Indian Chief "Two Eagles" was asked by a white U.S. Governmentofficial, "You have observed the white man for 90 years . You've seenhis wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and thedamage he's done.">> The Chief nodded in agreement.>> The official continued, "Considering all these events, in youropinion, where did the white man go wrong?">> The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and thencalmly replied:>> "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt,plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine manfree. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; All night having sex.'>> Then the chief leaned back and smiled "Only white man dumb enough tothink he could improve system like that."

So, if it's such a great lifestyle why are you sitting around moaning about capitalism ? There are some tribes left as it has been pointed out, please go join them. Let's see how much leisure time you have. Sitting around in a grass hut in the cold, dark depths of winter eating dried elk meat .....mmmmmm lovely.

[Karl]

Actually, you ought to do some research on this...

I have, but not in any depth. I've read several articles which point to the destruction of the Bison having been started by the Indians themselves, that coupled with predation they were already on the way to extinction. This seems a good article to start with and is worth discussing in terms of the references:

 

 

https://fee.org/articles/buffaloed-the-myth-and-reality-of-bison-in-america/

[Brian]

I have, but not in any depth. I've read several articles which point to the destruction of the Bison having been started by the Indians themselves, that coupled with predation they were already on the way to extinction. This seems a good article to start with and is worth discussing in terms of the references:

 

 

https://fee.org/articles/buffaloed-the-myth-and-reality-of-bison-in-america/

LOL

 

How delightfully Randian and objective and whatnot.

 

As I said, you really ought to do some research on this...

[Karl]

LOL

How delightfully Randian and objective and whatnot.

As I said, you really ought to do some research on this...

Point me in a direction, because every thing I read appears to contain historical contradictions. One thing is certain, they were far from being the noble savages this lot seem to believe they were. There is plenty of evidence of violent war of plunder between tribes and the myth of living in harmony with nature should definitely be re-appraised.

[blackstar212]

So, if it's such a great lifestyle why are you sitting around moaning about capitalism ? There are some tribes left as it has been pointed out, please go join them. Let's see how much leisure time you have. Sitting around in a grass hut in the cold, dark depths of winter eating dried elk meat .....mmmmmm lovely.

Well I think BES summed it up nice. I have connections with family and others in this corrupt system. I do believe that tribal anarchy is the best system. Cooperation over selfishness.

Edited October 20, 2016 by blackstar212

[Andrei]

They killed the bison because it could not be contained in an enclosed lot with fences like cows and horses. Bison needs vast territories to migrate and this is the reason indians had no concept of property, although they had the concept of owning the land because they used it as hunting territory and they fought wars for that. But a tribe owning a hunting territory is different than a the western capitalism where a man owns a lot of land, put fences around it and defends it with his guns. 

 

The western capitalism fault is the "property right", there is nothing wrong to own things, but ultimately all the wars were fought for land and resources of the land. And the land comes with the water and the air above it. And there is a huge discrepancy between a single person or a family owning thousands of square miles and other families owning just a couple of hundreds square feet, this is the problem of the actual civilization, who is owning the lands, the forests, the rivers, the resources and who is administrating them. To me is OK a government to administrate public property but the actual system is rigged so that the rich families control the government and not the other way around. So here is the problem of capitalism, it creates oligarchy.

 

I vote too for tribal anarchy but amended with all the modern science and technology available to all of us.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Andrei

[Brian]

Point me in a direction, because every thing I read appears to contain historical contradictions. One thing is certain, they were far from being the noble savages this lot seem to believe they were. There is plenty of evidence of violent war of plunder between tribes and the myth of living in harmony with nature should definitely be re-appraised.

While not totally accurate, this is not a bad starting point: http://www.history.com/topics/native-american-history/native-american-cultures

 

Since you specifically (but erroneously) mentioned the Cherokee, I thought I'd toss this out, too: http://www.cherokee.org/AboutTheNation/Culture/General.aspx

 

Yes, that one is by the Cherokee and is therefore not unbiased but it is more description than analysis.

 

The Cherokee, BTW, didn't call themselves "Cherokee" (although that has become common these days) -- they are "Ani-Yunwiya" (written as "ᎠᏂᏴᏫᏯ" in Tsalagi (the Ani-Yunwiya common language (written as "ᏣᎳᎩ" in Tsalagi))) or "Principal People." I say "common language" because they had several spoken languages, including one "high language" (now nearly lost) which was called something along the lines of "star language."

 

(I live just a few miles from the Qualla Boundary...)

[Karl]

I already claimed that it was likely an inaccuracy and have since edited the post.