Disillusioned with "ancient wisdom"

[daimai]

Hi guys,

 

I just began studying Acupuncture at University and although I've been a huge fan and practitioner of Taoism since 2012, I'm starting to get a bit "oversaturated" with Chinese medicine and the sheer amount of theoretical knowledge in our curriculum.

 

I'm halfway through my first semester and I'm starting to get sick to the stomach at the thought of having to memorize all the theory. With all due respect, a lot of it (TCM) seems to be slapped together in a kind of non-chalant way, is completely subjective and is at the end of the day, moderately effective at best. I find it bland and boring as hell. At least with science you get the excitement of discovering something new, but with TCM it's like studying religion.

 

Yes, I'm viewing the pessimistic side of the coin, but I am wondering if I should just commit and/or revivify my relationship with TCM or choose another career path altogether...

 

This is coming together with a deeper longing of abandoning all these so-called ancient traditions; ALL the religions, all philosophies, and dream up something much bigger and more embracing of our current times.

Edited October 11, 2016 by daimai

[Karl]

Hi guys,

 

I just began studying Acupuncture at University and although I've been a huge fan and practitioner of Taoism since 2012, I'm starting to get a bit "oversaturated" with Chinese medicine and the sheer amount of theoretical knowledge in our curriculum.

 

I'm halfway through my first semester and I'm starting to get sick to the stomach at the thought of having to memorize all the theory. With all due respect, a lot of it (TCM) seems to be slapped together in a kind of non-chalant way, is completely subjective and is at the end of the day, moderately effective at best. I find it bland and boring as hell. At least with science you get the excitement of discovering something new, but with TCM it's like studying religion.

 

Yes, I'm viewing the pessimistic side of the coin, but I am wondering if I should just commit and/or revivify my relationship with TCM or choose another career path altogether...

 

This is coming together with a deeper longing of abandoning all these so-called ancient traditions; ALL the religions, all philosophies, and dream up something much bigger and more embracing of our current times.

I would say 'welcome to my world' but it's perhaps a bit early to make that claim.

 

It's best if you do something you enjoy, but keep one eye on the practical considerations. What will the cost be for changing, are you sufficiently academic to achieve a good result, are jobs in that market plentiful. It's awfully hard to set up in business as a scientist, they are institutional jobs requiring a backer, but Chinese medicine allows you to run a business-the only caveat is actually believing in the medicine. As one who has an NLP practitioner certificate, basic hypnotherapy and a coaching qualification I could make a ton of money as an independent service provider and I get a lot of people asking for me, but I don't believe in NLP anymore so I cannot with good conscious act against my moral code ax it would feel dishonest.

[RiverSnake]

Becoming a doctor is a difficult path. 

[daimai]

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/10/25/chairman-mao-inventor-of-traditional-chinese-medicine/

 

Is this true ?

[Taomeow]

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/10/25/chairman-mao-inventor-of-traditional-chinese-medicine/

 

Is this true ?

 

No.  I read Mao's biography written by his personal live-in physician who ministered to him for over 20 years.  He was a Chinese, Western trained doctor of Western medicine, which was what Mao preferred.  But by the time, Chinese traditional medicine was already grossly mutilated by John D. Rockefeller, and wasn't the same since the early 20th century.  Rockefeller's plans for takeover of medicine were global, so about 50 million (billions in modern exchange) was invested into destroying the tradition in China specifically.  New schools were established there in the 1920s and schedules were developed on Rockefeller-Mellon-Carnegie specs, and these got ample funding and promotion while traditional ones were cut off from the dollar tit and subjected to an orchestrated campaign of ridicule, defamation and aggressive business warfare.  

 

By the time Mao seized power, he was already a product of this having happened earlier, i.e. a believer in Western medicine.  That he didn't ban traditional medicine altogether is a miracle, considering how our "democratic" societies went a whole lot more totalitarian in this respect, swallowing the Rockefeller medicine (i.e. profiteering from illness by all means available, and replacing treatment and cure with "management" of disease) and smacking their lips.  The taoist God of Health must have intervened, or Mao would have followed suit -- he most definitely considered it.   

Edited October 11, 2016 by Taomeow

[Aetherous]

It seems to me like a person must love Chinese Medicine, or at least its potential, in order to become a good practitioner of it. It involves a constant revisiting of the basic theories...if you don't like it, best to find what you like.

What do you think is a noble career to have? What are the things you enjoy? What's your purpose?

[Andrei]

The problem with all these medicines (Accupuncture, TCM, Western, Ayurveda, Naturopathy) they are suffocated by their own dogma, they don't want to change their paradigms. For example the "ancients" had no concept of viruses, bacteria and fungi, for them they were "bad smells". Nowadays they started to study the antiviral, antibacterial and antifungical properties of traditional herbs.

Another example is the concept of "Qi" that is translated as "energy". This is a really confusing concept, I would personally translate as "(bio)chemical reaction".

So all these concepts have to overlap and become common in a single medicine, the Human Medicine.

When TCM will fusion with the German New Medicine, then it will be a huge step for humanity.

[RiverSnake]

I am a Massage Therapist whom also practices Medical Qigong and eventually i plan to learn Acupressure. While all of these areas require deep study, they are less intellectual and rely equally on visceral and intuitive knowledge. 

[Gerard]

Hi guys,

 

I just began studying Acupuncture at University and although I've been a huge fan and practitioner of Taoism since 2012, I'm starting to get a bit "oversaturated" with Chinese medicine and the sheer amount of theoretical knowledge in our curriculum.

This is coming together with a deeper longing of abandoning all these so-called ancient traditions; ALL the religions, all philosophies, and dream up something much bigger and more embracing of our current times.

 

 

Hi there,

 

Sorry to hear that but please don't disregard Chinese Medicine. The problem is that you are studying TCM (the modern version adapted by the Communist China) and not Daoist Medicine. Why don't you contact Classical Chinese Medicine for advice. They also have a center of studies in the US. Where do you live?

 

Yes, Medicine is only the first step of healing...what comes next is a lot bigger but then you'll be entering the real of the spirit, hence the body is only to be maintained in its functioning role.

 

Becoming a practitioner is not easy since you'll be dealing with the average people hence practice itself will become daunting and not everyone will be keen to really heal themselves. As a matter of fact, delusion, lust, anger, attachment, the ego, etc. are the real causes of disease.

 

Daost Medicine is similar to Buddhist Medicine. If you have some spare time, here's a very useful article.

 

I also recommed watching this excellent video.

 

Deep down the root of disease is in THE MIND.

 

I wish you the very best.

 

Edited October 16, 2016 by Gerard

[doc benway]

Hi guys,

 

I just began studying Acupuncture at University and although I've been a huge fan and practitioner of Taoism since 2012, I'm starting to get a bit "oversaturated" with Chinese medicine and the sheer amount of theoretical knowledge in our curriculum.

 

I'm halfway through my first semester and I'm starting to get sick to the stomach at the thought of having to memorize all the theory. With all due respect, a lot of it (TCM) seems to be slapped together in a kind of non-chalant way, is completely subjective and is at the end of the day, moderately effective at best. I find it bland and boring as hell. At least with science you get the excitement of discovering something new, but with TCM it's like studying religion.

 

Yes, I'm viewing the pessimistic side of the coin, but I am wondering if I should just commit and/or revivify my relationship with TCM or choose another career path altogether...

 

This is coming together with a deeper longing of abandoning all these so-called ancient traditions; ALL the religions, all philosophies, and dream up something much bigger and more embracing of our current times.

 

Any in depth study will cover material that includes rote memorization and accumulation of knowledge that may or may not seem to have practical application. Much of it is archaic but informs us as to how the field arrived at where it is today. This applies in Western medicine, chess, philosophy, music,... just about anything. No question that some fields are more dogmatic than others, especially those that stick closely to ancient traditions. On the other hand, ancient traditions have generally survived the centuries for a reason. There is some credibility in longevity.

 

Only you can determine if the chosen path is the right one for you. I would caution against dropping out simply because the core material seems too theoretical and tiresome. Having a foundation in the history and basic materials in any tradition allows us to put it in it's proper perspective and, in retrospect, we often see value where none seemed to be as we were wading through it. At least that's been my experience in a number of subjects I've studied. 

 

Have you had any clinical experience yet? If not, it may be worthwhile to try and shadow or intern at a clinic and see if the practical side appeals to you. If so, it will be worth toughing it out a bit longer. If not, perhaps it isn't right for you. You could be doing a lot of things, or nothing, over the next few years. If the practical side of TCM appeals to you, you may as well be heading in that direction. Good luck in your journey.

[Gerard]

In other words, Communist China turned an ancient civilisation upside down in only a decade. After the founding of the People’s Republic of China, TCM was revived and actively researched, along with Western Medicine. Here is where problems started to occur.

 

Medicine in 'modernised' China is now viewed from a Marxist point of view hence it conforms to Western Medicine principles: materialistic, technological, pathological, the germ as the main cause of disease, the human body as a machine and the doctor as the mechanic. The concept of 'five spirits' inhabiting the body was completely removed because it confronts Marx's egotism. Marx reviewed dialectics in materialist terms, arguing for the primacy of matter over idea.

 

The Importance of Classical Chinese Medicine in Modern Times

 

Modern China as a whole is lost, its a country where making huge profit and catching up with the West are the main ideals.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2016 by Gerard

[Taomeow]

China has more people in the top 1% IQ range worldwide than America has people.  I just love the condescending attitude to a civilization that was already done creating a complete and fully functional "general theory of everything" readily and efficiently put to practice, with noncontroversial cross-reference and mutual empirical verification of all scientific disciplines (that never had to be discarded as false every few decades the way our modern sciences do) when future Europeans lived in caves.  At the time of the Yellow Emperor they already lamented the sorry state of medicine forced to rely on substances and manipulations because the powerful doctors who healed with qi and sound no longer came down from the mountains, having written off the world of "red dust" as lost.  By "red dust" they meant human blood cells and, wider, the human genome. 

See, they just didn't use any Latin.  Lingua Latina non penis canina, but our modern (actually, not so modern, we inherited this from our obscurantist church fathers) quasi-scientific way of expressing our ideas has left us with the delusion of knowing what the ancients didn't. 

 

Nope.  They knew a helluva lot -- they just didn't resort to obscurantist foreign terminology of the privileged "scientific" caste as we do.  "It's as true as that a horse is not an ox" --  the Chinese mathematicians' way to say "axiom."  What's an axiom?  Something that requires another definition.  They avoided it.  They cut to the chase with their terminology.  "A hosre is not an ox" does not require a further definition.  Ditto "an invisible worm" or "dampness" or "liver fire."  They say "fire," we say "inflammation."  Same thing, only "inflammation" is Latin and therefore we think it's more scientific than "fire." 

 

For China, fluctuations of fortune spanning a few decades here, a hundred years there are nothing new.  "It all happened before, and it will all happen again," as my favorite movie line goes.  So they didn't use Latin names for what they discovered -- so a bacterium was an "invisible worm" --  so what?  They still invented vaccines in the 13th century.  Thousands of years ago they discovered organs in the human body that modern medicine is only catching up with now, e.g. the "gut brain" -- you know you have the ENS, right? --  enteric nervous system? --  a complex system of about 100 million nerves found in the lining of the gut, right?..  They did.  Only they called it the lower dantien, and knew way more about its functions than modern Western science had a chance to learn to date, having discovered it only a few years ago.

 

OK, I better bail out...  It all happened before, and it will all happen again. 

[roger]

Hi guys,

 

I just began studying Acupuncture at University and although I've been a huge fan and practitioner of Taoism since 2012, I'm starting to get a bit "oversaturated" with Chinese medicine and the sheer amount of theoretical knowledge in our curriculum.

 

I'm halfway through my first semester and I'm starting to get sick to the stomach at the thought of having to memorize all the theory. With all due respect, a lot of it (TCM) seems to be slapped together in a kind of non-chalant way, is completely subjective and is at the end of the day, moderately effective at best. I find it bland and boring as hell. At least with science you get the excitement of discovering something new, but with TCM it's like studying religion.

 

Yes, I'm viewing the pessimistic side of the coin, but I am wondering if I should just commit and/or revivify my relationship with TCM or choose another career path altogether...

 

This is coming together with a deeper longing of abandoning all these so-called ancient traditions; ALL the religions, all philosophies, and dream up something much bigger and more embracing of our current times.

 

Daimai,

 

I feel that if I help another person to make a choice, rather than telling them what I think they should do, I should help them make their own choice.

 

Here are some ways to make choices that I've found helpful:

 

1. Follow your heart.

 

2. Follow your bliss.

 

3. Do what you WANT to do, not just what you think you "should" do.

 

4. Do what gives you peace and joy.

 

5. If you can't figure out what you want, and what would give you peace and joy, GUESS- you'll probably be right.

 

I hope this helps and gives you some valuable ways of making the right decision.

[gendao]

Sorry to hear that but please don't disregard Chinese Medicine. The problem is that you are studying TCM (the modern version adapted by the Communist China) and not Daoist Medicine. Why don't you contact Classical Chinese Medicine for advice. They also have a center of studies in the US. Where do you live?

Since the 1970s, the TCM process of packaging the multi-faceted roots of Chinese medicine into the sterile confines of a highly standardized model

This description is pretty vague...  Can someone summarize or point out some of the actual differences between TCM & CCM?  In theory and/or practice?

Edited October 12, 2016 by gendao

[liminal_luke]

 

 

Have you had any clinical experience yet? If not, it may be worthwhile to try and shadow or intern at a clinic and see if the practical side appeals to you. If so, it will be worth toughing it out a bit longer. If not, perhaps it isn't right for you. 

 

Yes!  The big question I´d ask is "do I want to be a doctor"?  Do I have a passion for helping people with their physical health?  Also, am I the kind of person who would thrive having his own business? (Most people aren´t.)  Or, if not, how woud I make use of my degree?  

 

If you have a passion for physical healing and could see yourself enjoying the day to day of working for yourself in a clinic, then I´d stay where you are.  The program you´re in now won´t be the end of your studies but just the beginning.  After you graduate you can continue to flesh it out with continued education.  You will have a foundation and will be able to tweak your practice in any number of directions depending on your interests and talents.  

[Aetherous]

This description is pretty vague...  Can someone summarize or point out some of the actual differences between TCM & CCM?  In theory and/or practice?

 

Classical Chinese Medicine is not actually well defined. Is it strictly practicing from the Classic, the Nei Jing, and maybe the Nan Jing which some also consider to be a classic? The Shang Han Za Bing Lun? Is it practicing from various schools of thought throughout its history prior to the creation of TCM? Is it just practicing anything outside of TCM, including "intuition" and "spiritual" sounding things? Is it just a marketing buzzword?

 

The truth is that TCM evolved as a coherent language, out of the disparate schools of thought and various practitioners prior to it. It wasn't invented entirely...it actually comes from the assorted ideas that arose throughout Chinese Medical history. It has its roots in the Classics, yet doesn't stay strict to them or to any particular school of thought.

 

A TCM curriculum or textbook presents things in a certain way: if they have these signs and symptoms, they likely have this pattern. For this pattern, use this historical formula, and use these acupoints. It's a system that works pretty well when done correctly.

 

Any "Classical" Chinese Medical school teaches TCM at its core, but then just has you think outside of the box slightly. None of them are strict Nei Jing. Any program that teaches herbalism as part of the degree, ends up doing a broad overview of the various schools of thought, even if the school advertises itself as purely TCM...the Bensky herbal textbooks contain snippets of the historical texts...so no matter what, you are getting an introduction to the vast amount of knowledge outside of TCM. Yet it's still all taught according to the common language of TCM in the schools.

 

Some take it a step further, with continuing education programs, or perhaps apprenticeships. Ed Neal created a course on the Nei Jing, which might lend perspective to the dedicated student's reading of the text itself. Arnaud Versluys teaches a family style of the Shang Han Za Bing Lun, which suggests formulas for specific pulse and abdominal patterns. Zhao Wang wrote a book Ling Shu Acupuncture, which attempts to practice a style of needling that is strict to the Nei Jing (only references its various passages and no other text)...although it doesn't include all of the needling styles in the classic, nor all of the diagnosis considerations.

 

So yeah...when it comes to colleges that you get a degree from, "Classical" is a marketing term used to attract students who want something better or older than what's commonly practiced. They nebulously want the best...yet, 99% of students entering don't actually grasp the differentiation. Because you only really begin to learn about the medicine after you enter the school...prior to that, it's just crappy articles you read online or very basic books that only partially make sense, and don't permit you to practice.

 

A Classical Chinese medicine practitioner is someone who is very familiar with the Classic texts, who practices from them rather than from the lens of TCM. Needling may be done differently. Herbs done differently. Diagnosis done differently. There's not a curriculum for what this looks like, because even the Classics contradict themselves at times...but it must depend on learning from historical texts, and does not resemble "spiritual" treatments (unless done strictly according to the texts) or using your intuition, etc.

 

Just my view.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Aetherous

[KuroShiro]

Hi there,

 

Sorry to hear that but please don't disregard Chinese Medicine. The problem is that you are studying TCM (the modern version adapted by the Communist China) and not Daoist Medicine. Why don't you contact Classical Chinese Medicine for advice. They also have a center of studies in the US. Where do you live?

 

Yes, Medicine is only the first step of healing...what comes next is a lot bigger but then you'll be entering the real of the spirit, hence the body is only to be maintained in its functioning role.

 

Becoming a practitioner is not easy since you'll be dealing with the average people hence practice itself will become daunting and not everyone will be keen to really heal themselves. As a matter of fact, delusion, lust, anger, attachment, the ego, etc. are the real causes of disease.

 

Daost Medicine is similar to Buddhist Medicine. If you have some spare time, here's a very useful article.

 

I also recommed watching this excellent video.

 

Deep down the root of disease is in THE MIND.

 

I wish you the very best.

 

 

 

I would echo Gerard's advice, I've been very fortunate to have crossed paths with Classical Acupuncture and although I've never experienced TCM Acupuncture, from what I've read it's not the real deal. That doesn't mean it's not capable of good results.

 

 

I disagree with Gerard about the causes of disease:

Saying that "delusion, lust, anger, attachment, the ego, etc. are the real causes of disease" and "Deep down the root of disease is in THE MIND" is way too simplistic.

 

You have body, mind and spirit...

[KuroShiro]

Classical Chinese Medicine is not actually well defined. Is it strictly practicing from the Classic, the Nei Jing, and maybe the Nan Jing which some also consider to be a classic? The Shang Han Za Bing Lun? Is it practicing from various schools of thought throughout its history prior to the creation of TCM? Is it just practicing anything outside of TCM, including "intuition" and "spiritual" sounding things?

 

Your choice of words "intuition" and "spiritual sounding things" denotes any prejudice towards CCM?

 

Classical Chinese Medicine is deep-seated in Tradition. It's been passed down from teacher to student, it's rooted in the Classics but it probably predates them.

I don't know if it's still true today but I think if you went to Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam... during the Cultural Revolution you would find the majority of doctors there practicing Classical Acupuncture. Same within China decades earlier.

 

 

Is it just a marketing buzzword?

.

 

Any "Classical" Chinese Medical school teaches TCM at its core, but then just has you think outside of the box slightly. None of them are strict Nei Jing. Any program that teaches herbalism as part of the degree, ends up doing a broad overview of the various schools of thought, even if the school advertises itself as purely TCM...the Bensky herbal textbooks contain snippets of the historical texts...so no matter what, you are getting an introduction to the vast amount of knowledge outside of TCM. Yet it's still all taught according to the common language of TCM in the schools.

 

This is not true. Classical Chinese Medicine is way older than TCM. If a school teaches TCM along with CCM it's because it wants to integrate them both in clinical practice.

 

 

[Aetherous]

Well, I go to a "CCM school" and consider myself a CCM type of practitioner who is also learning from a true CCM teacher...so perhaps you didn't understand my post upon first reading.

[KuroShiro]

Well, I go to a "CCM school" and consider myself a CCM type of practitioner who is also learning from a true CCM teacher...so perhaps you didn't understand my post upon first reading.

 

Well then you're a lucky guy!

Classical Acupuncture had such an impact on me that I'll probably try to learn it if I can, at some point in my life.

 

Can you tell which school? U.S.A. or Europe?

Also are the treatments with only 1 needle for real?

[Aetherous]

Also are the treatments with only 1 needle for real?

 

That's not how my particular school teaches...like I said, schools mostly stick to TCM despite being called CCM.

 

In modern day, the French acupuncture style aims for using only 1 or 2 needles. Their results tend to come on slow (instead of feeling better right away, you feel better a month later) and yet be lasting and kind of all encompassing, from what I've read. In historical times, Hua Tuo advised to use only 1 or 2 needles...although what's attributed to him (the Zhong Zang Jing) is questionable. The one needle way isn't necessarily "classical" though, because the Nei Jing says many different things...sometimes using up to 4 channels at a time, sometimes tonifying the most deficient channel while reducing the excess using 3 needles, etc.

 

I think it gives the body a much clearer message to use less needles. One needle is potentially powerful because of that. You just have to be really good in order to know the exact message to send for the best result. It's totally possible to send a clear message that the body doesn't benefit from at all...it was the wrong message.

 

On the other hand, you can use multiple needles on each limb, sending a more broad spectrum message, which provides greater results despite not being so focused and powerful.

 

In clinic, "classical" doesn't matter...what matters is the patient improving. So despite studying the classics primarily (avoiding homework to do so), I will even go to modern distal needling methods to treat pain like Dr Tan, or use e-stim with needles surrounding the area. Whatever works. The classics, as well as much throughout the history of the medicine, are great to explore, and only benefit you as a practitioner...sometimes you can practice 100% that way, when it's really indicated. I personally feel like it'd be a disservice to patients to practice that way absolutely, if there was a better way that was more modern.

 

One teacher I know put it well...just because it's old doesn't mean it's better or worse, just because it's new doesn't mean it's better or worse.

[Gerard]

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Edited October 16, 2016 by Gerard

[Gerard]

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Edited October 16, 2016 by Gerard

[Taomeow]

Dear Gerard,

 

I'm not "mystifying" China.  I've been there.  I found all the things you think are gone forever in places where tourists don't look.  Not in the mountains.  Not in the circus monasteries.  Elsewhere.  

 

Yes, modern times are unprecedented but not only for China.  Yes, China didn't have the immunity -- and who did?  The assault on our humanity is global.  To single out one of the poorest -- despite being the most hardworking -- peoples on earth (and despite millions of millionaires, the vast majority of the Chinese still live in poverty...  poverty plus trinkets, cell phones ringing in jeans pockets of people who share one ten square foot room between two families, I've seen those rooms, and work sunrise to sunset) -- to single them out as "only interested in making a lot of money" --

  who are we comparing them to?..  What exactly are those "enlightened Westerners" who think they are better because they had it easier and didn't have to get obsessed with money because mom and dad were in the position to provide enough?  Who are they to begrudge China her growing prosperity even if it is indeed growing?  What fucking moral right do they have to judge? 

 

I've read many, many books about contemporary China, both documents of the times and works of fiction, have you?  Do you have any idea how superficial and uninformed a "disillusioned" Westerner can get when he expects fabled immortals peopling every corner of the most populated country on Earth with the longest uninterrupted history, the contemporary of ancient Greece and ancient Rome, and finds instead a billion poor peasants forced into the cities and adjusting within less than one generation, with flexibility and attunement to  the times unmatched by anyone anywhere at any time?..  Those immortal values are dissolved in the bloodstream of the people of the country, they are not "tao of the mouth" and therefore not obvious to an "enlightened Westerner" because he doesn't know where to look, and sees nothing because he's looking in the wrong place for the wrong manifestation? 

 

The truly enlightened Westerners understood, and left the rest with just two admonitions: don't poke the bear, and above all, don't wake up the dragon.  Both may be busy for a while adjusting to their respective cages, doing their best and looking ridiculously inadequate to a visitor in the zoo. 

 

But one day the cage goes bust. 

 

It happened before, and it will happen again. 

 

Wanna bet?.. 

[Gerard]

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Edited October 16, 2016 by Gerard