Kunlun vs other practices?

[taoguy]

I was looking at this page: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3314&whichpage=9

 

And I searched around TaoBums, but there was never a definitive answer on Kunlun, just a lot of speculation and mixed answers.

 

Tibetan_Ice in that site above quotes the following from Max:

In this interview Max describes the difference between kundanlini and Kunlun: Kundalini is the fire path, from the tail up, while kunlun is the water path, from the crown down. He says that Kunlun will open the downward path from the crown but that doing so also awakens the lower chakras (hence kundalini) and eventually both flows (the downward and the upward) meet at the heart.

 

This reminds me of what an attained Christian/Buddhist mystic says (source):

By 1995 I'd begun to spend many hours a day working with altered states.  A pleasant throbbing started to tickle my forehead between the eyes, accompanied by a persistent ringing in the ears.  The throbbing increased over a weeks-long period, expanding to a persistent halo around my head.  As I concentrated on the sensations during meditation, the blissful energy began to "pour" down my body until it encapsulated me like an eggshell.  The energy would sometimes grow more intense than any orgasm I'd ever experienced, and it would last for hours at a time.

 

My then-girlfriend (now wife) was in the midst of a classic kundalini awakening that began in the second half of 1994.  I read the books she'd located that taught about that phenomenon, but they all described a bottom-up process, while mine definitely worked from top-down.  True, when the energy reached my lower chakras, the whole area would "light up" and sometimes send energy back up through the top of my head – but none of the books spoke of top-down until I came across Sri Aurobindo's Synthesis of Yoga.

 

While reading each word in the 900 pages of this book, I found Aurobindo speaking directly to the phenomenon that had manifested in me.  In his yoga, he determined that the shakti energy should be drawn down through the head and body, undergoing a stepped-down filtering on its way to the lower chakras. Then, having been purified, it could safely ascend through the energy pathways to its original entry point.  This explained why I never experienced the raw, terrifying symptoms that my girlfriend had undergone, and it also gave me a framework within which I could place my own spontaneous experience, lending it a sense of meaning that had previously escaped me.

 

Then from the same site, a self-acclaimed Arahant says:

In my experience of the quiet mode of Kundalini it seems to rise through all of the upper chakras, heart, throat, forehead and crown.  But, I have never experienced this concept of it coming back down and circulating as in the “microcosmic orbit.”  While quiet kundalini doesn't seem to do loop-d-loops in my physiology doesn't mean It doesn't in someone else's, so I wouldn't go so far to say it does or does not in everyone’s case.

I assume the above is the "central channel" when the outside gel-coat of energy or the external alchemical elixir is done and enters the low dantian.

 

Then, I looked at Lin Chunyi's Spring Forest Qigong (and practised it for a few months too), and also realised that this did not take a "bottom-up" approach the way most kriya yoga did. (source)

CL: Kundalini is a powerful form of energy in the body. SFQ does not focus on it. It is a different system.

From practicing it, he puts a lot of emphasis on microcosmic orbit and moving-of-yin-and-yang to balance the upper and lower torso energies. Also, a lot on the heart, like lovingkindness types of meditation and his new 5-element level 1 training focusing on the 5 emotions to balance the 5 elements.

 

On the other hand, Nan Huai Jin (chan+tantric enlightened master) says that when we go through the 4 stages of "life-sustaining breath" (长养气): Wind (风), Panting (喘), Qi (气) and Xi (息), we then enter the stage of Sambhogakaya-Qi (报身气) which is what the fetus uses to nourish life. Then later on we have Original Qi (根本气). But the main thing is that he says that Yang-Qi rises from both the Du-Mai and Ren-Mai channels to open up the microcosmic orbit (Source: Tao and Longevity). He says playing around with breath-work itself does not get you to the real opening because the breath itself has to go into extreme Yin for great Yang to come forth. So he advocates the bottom-up approach here.

 

*

 

So far, I feel like kunlun seems to belong to the upper group, in that it is a little vipassana-ish/zen-ish in the way that it simply allows things to happen as they are. Just a little unsettled by some bad reviews and that its lineage comes from Maoshan, which apparently has a bad rep for black magic in its history.

 

But I've read things that say good and bad things about kunlun, so I'm pretty confused. Has anyone tried it, and have you had any good results? Has it led you towards more insight? 

 

I'm particularly interested in the Chan Buddhism way of gaining enlightenment. So do you think this would fit? 

[Aeran]

This doesn't really answer any of your questions, since I don't have any direct experience with Kunlun, but another interesting example of a "top down" technique is the Middle Pillar ritual from the Golden Dawn, which involves drawing energy down through the crown of the head and the central channel, stopping at several points to visualize and vibrate God Names, then circulating it through and around the body in various ways. In my experience, it's one of the more intense practices out there in terms of direct, quantifiable energy sensations produced (although of course that isn't necessarily a good thing).

 

The Qabbalistic Cross portion of the LBRP could also be put in this category, although for some reason it doesn't induce nearly as intense an energy flow (perhaps because the energy is run through the whole body and not just the central channel).

Edited October 13, 2016 by Aeran

[JohnC]

There hasn't been much talk on the taobums around kunlun's current version. A lot of what you are reading is probably about the previous iteration of kunlun which was yigong level 1 through 3 and some other practices that Max incorporated.

 

To speak to your questions about what WAS kunlun, I would definitely call yi gong level 1 vipassana-ish in a very powerful way. The main focus of it is yi training aka mind/insight training. I practiced it for 3 years and developed some awakening through it. I am a big fan of the system and Jenny Lamb.

 

You can read what I thought of it in 2012 here:

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/23214-my-kunlun-practice-journal-friendly-comments-welcomed/?p=332883

 

I do think it would fit in with Chan.

 

As to the current version of kunlun, I've never practiced it.

 

John

Edited October 13, 2016 by JohnC

[Andrei]

First of all just because someone says it's not Kundalni, does not mean anything. All systems use sexual energy and sexual energy is Kundalini. It does not matter if the sexual energy goes bottom up or top down, it is the same energy, same hormones. Maybe not quite same, because testosteron is made in testes, but dopamine is made in the brain, serotonine is made in the guts, noradrenaline is made in the adrenals, so no matter what system you use you still need all these ingredients in all places of the body and you need to mix them.

 

In my experience Kunlun is both Water-Fire or Kan-Li fusion and yes, it is the fusion in the central channel at the heart level. Is not at the heart, is just that the hormonal soup is so concentrated that the emotions become very intense, which feels like you are in love permanently, your heart is open constantly. And this is not necessarily a good thing, you may be taken for granted and exploited by other people.

 

But in terms of the practice it does not matter if you do microcosmic orbit or central channel or any other practice, what matters is If you make an energetic movement very fast, like uncontrolled shaking, that is the Fire effect, too much dopamine, the dopamine wears down and drops down and you start shaking. If the energetic movement is slow like a small water string, then the feeling is like water, it is a Water effect. But that depends on you, how you use the system or the exercise, not on what the master is saying. Some people have more Water in their bodies some have more Fire, it is your job to do the adjustments and achieve the optimum balance.

[joeblast]

the focus of yigong and kunlun1 are different.  I keep my sinuses clean with a variation

[liminal_luke]

the focus of yigong and kunlun1 are different.  I keep my sinuses clean with a variation

 

This is something I don´t understand.  I´ve been to several seminars with Max, and have practiced Yi Gung from Jenny Lamb´s self-healing dvd.  I know that Max says his Kunlun is different, but I´m not at all clear on what that difference is.

 

The teachers do have a different focus.  At first glance anyways, Sifu Jenny is much more focused on physical health.  Her dvd contains before and after practices that, to me, give the practice a physical-health improving quality.

 

Max includes several other practices in his Kunlun system, most notably Red Phoenix.  If Kunlun is done in conjunction with Red Phoenix it likely has different effects than just Kunlun alone.

 

So...the adjunct practices that go along with Kunlun/Yi Gung are different -- I can see that.  But as far as the basic the Kunlun practice itself goes, I don´t see what the difference is.

 

Am I missing something?  Thanks.

Edited October 13, 2016 by liminal_luke

[taoguy]

This doesn't really answer any of your questions, since I don't have any direct experience with Kunlun, but another interesting example of a "top down" technique is the Middle Pillar ritual from the Golden Dawn, which involves drawing energy down through the crown of the head and the central channel, stopping at several points to visualize and vibrate God Names, then circulating it through and around the body in various ways. In my experience, it's one of the more intense practices out there in terms of direct, quantifiable energy sensations produced (although of course that isn't necessarily a good thing).

 

The Qabbalistic Cross portion of the LBRP could also be put in this category, although for some reason it doesn't induce nearly as intense an energy flow (perhaps because the energy is run through the whole body and not just the central channel).

 

Oh yes I used to do the Middle Pillar ritual as well, it brought intense feelings. But then again it isn't anywhere as close as what I've experienced through deep meditation (even breath meditation) or simple dharani recitation (cundi/avalokitesvara).

 

 

There hasn't been much talk on the taobums around kunlun's current version. A lot of what you are reading is probably about the previous iteration of kunlun which was yigong level 1 through 3 and some other practices that Max incorporated.

 

To speak to your questions about what WAS kunlun, I would definitely call yi gong level 1 vipassana-ish in a very powerful way. The main focus of it is yi training aka mind/insight training. I practiced it for 3 years and developed some awakening through it. I am a big fan of the system and Jenny Lamb.

 

You can read what I thought of it in 2012 here:

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/23214-my-kunlun-practice-journal-friendly-comments-welcomed/?p=332883

 

I do think it would fit in with Chan.

 

As to the current version of kunlun, I've never practiced it.

 

John

 

Yeah, that's the confusion I have. So is what Jenny-Lamb teaches the same as what Max teaches?

 

From his latest book, he teaches: 

- Refined KUNLUN method posture with yin/yang hand (the ball posture)

- Laughing/Smiling

- Gold Flower Method of Maoshan

- Three Ones Meditation of Maoshan

- Taoist Traveling Hands of Maoshan(Dream Yoga)

- Maoshan Five Elements (five different postures)

 

It looks to me like they are all mainly maoshan practices.

 

First of all just because someone says it's not Kundalni, does not mean anything. All systems use sexual energy and sexual energy is Kundalini. It does not matter if the sexual energy goes bottom up or top down, it is the same energy, same hormones. Maybe not quite same, because testosteron is made in testes, but dopamine is made in the brain, serotonine is made in the guts, noradrenaline is made in the adrenals, so no matter what system you use you still need all these ingredients in all places of the body and you need to mix them.

 

In my experience Kunlun is both Water-Fire or Kan-Li fusion and yes, it is the fusion in the central channel at the heart level. Is not at the heart, is just that the hormonal soup is so concentrated that the emotions become very intense, which feels like you are in love permanently, your heart is open constantly. And this is not necessarily a good thing, you may be taken for granted and exploited by other people.

 

But in terms of the practice it does not matter if you do microcosmic orbit or central channel or any other practice, what matters is If you make an energetic movement very fast, like uncontrolled shaking, that is the Fire effect, too much dopamine, the dopamine wears down and drops down and you start shaking. If the energetic movement is slow like a small water string, then the feeling is like water, it is a Water effect. But that depends on you, how you use the system or the exercise, not on what the master is saying. Some people have more Water in their bodies some have more Fire, it is your job to do the adjustments and achieve the optimum balance.

 

Can you explain to me the relationship between the hormones and Kundalini, if you don't mind? (I'm a little new to this perspective) Isn't jing related to hormones? I thought kundalini (yang chi/sambhogakaya chi) was more of the fire element in the body, while hormones are the 'water element'.

 

So it's fusion at the "Mother Light" (in the heart), right? Basically bringing upper "Child Light" (in the head) down?

 

When I do anapanasati (breath mediation), I get to the point where the breath stops and then there's tons of heat and energy rising throughout my body. Would that be a fire or water practice? According to Nan Huai Jin, this is when yang chi rises when we get into extreme Yin.

 

It's strange because the way Max describes it is that fire is intentionally trying to start up the heat/kundalini, like in Tummo practice/Wim-hof, and water is more of a spontaneous, flow-with-the-moment, vipasssana kind of thing. And breath meditation, translated from Pali is anapanasati, sati meaning 'mindfulness' or simply what people commentarily call vipassana, since it also involves all four mindfulness cornerstones (body, sensations, thoughts, mental qualities).

 

 

This is something I don´t understand.  I´ve been to several seminars with Max, and have practiced Yi Gung from Jenny Lamb´s self-healing dvd.  I know that Max says his Kunlun is different, but I´m not at all clear on what that difference is.

 

The teachers do have a different focus.  At first glance anyways, Sifu Jenny is much more focused on physical health.  Her dvd contains before and after practices that, to me, give the practice a physical-health improving quality.

 

Max includes several other practices in his Kunlun system, most notably Red Phoenix.  If Kunlun is done in conjunction with Red Phoenix it likely has different effects than just Kunlun alone.

 

So...the adjunct practices that go along with Kunlun/Yi Gung are different -- I can see that.  But as far as the basic the Kunlun practice itself goes, I don´t see what the difference is.

 

Am I missing something?  Thanks.

 

Yeah, I'd like to know that too. Are there any problems that people face by mixing this 'yi gong' and red phoenix? 

 

Haha and that also reminds me of SpringForestqigong, because chunyi lin is more focused on healing physical ailments from what he presents, but behind he still teaches higher levels for self-enlightenment.

 

 

--- Also, if anyone knows or has experience, does anyone know if it's possible to mix breath meditation (anapanasati) with kunlun? Assuming that they are done a few hours apart of course.

Edited October 14, 2016 by taoguy

[joeblast]

hm...I think there's perhaps an underappreciation for the word 'intent' and the difference in outcomes.  perhaps mechanically and physiospiritually they are extremely similar, but for example I havent seen any of jenny's students write about outcomes I have or are even close to the way I go about doing things with the practice.  lots of similarities, yes, but...

 

I also took max's egyptian class, which is a powerful K practice of sorts, and he specifically told us to keep a day or two's separation between doing that and KL - what do you get when you mix lightning with water?  call up your sister, because she's never seen a trainwreck before...

 

there are a bunch of certain differences between what max taught there and any other K-ish material I've read, some deep things that make a ton of sense (even at the neurological level) that makes it more than your average K practice.

 

 

heh, breath stopping & anapanasati are contradictory

[Aeran]

What do the "Egyptian" practices consist of? I wonder where he picked those up.

[taoguy]

hm...I think there's perhaps an underappreciation for the word 'intent' and the difference in outcomes.  perhaps mechanically and physiospiritually they are extremely similar, but for example I havent seen any of jenny's students write about outcomes I have or are even close to the way I go about doing things with the practice.  lots of similarities, yes, but...

 

I also took max's egyptian class, which is a powerful K practice of sorts, and he specifically told us to keep a day or two's separation between doing that and KL - what do you get when you mix lightning with water?  call up your sister, because she's never seen a trainwreck before...

 

there are a bunch of certain differences between what max taught there and any other K-ish material I've read, some deep things that make a ton of sense (even at the neurological level) that makes it more than your average K practice.

 

 

heh, breath stopping & anapanasati are contradictory

Thanks for the input.

 

I agree that intent might lead to different outcomes. Just wondering.. if kunlun works, then why try the egyptian class then (since they are different)? Curious...What fruits have you seen from extended kunlun practice so far? Does it have anything to do with wisdom/insight?

 

Anapanasati is not contradictory to breath stopping though. Nan Huai Jin teaches that "ana" does not mean exhaling, but expanding, while "pana" is contracting. So when the external breath stops, it becomes the lower dan-tian that is controlling the energy that is expanding and contracting. I've also experienced this before, and the yang-qi rises and makes the body as soft as a baby. Also called "Fetal breathing". So just wondering if this practice is compatible with kunlun...

Edited October 15, 2016 by taoguy

[joeblast]

 I'm a jack of all trades, it was part of my sampling the fare at the chi restaurant.  Deciding which foods to live off of....which to consume copious amounts of, which I just need a dash of.  The human body is fantastic and amazing, man have only 2 arms and 2 legs but still so many ways one can cultivate. 

 

My path is my own just like Max's is his own.   Maybe he got something different out of it when Jenny taught him the shaking practice.  Maybe I got something different out of it, too.  But I dont teach this stuff anyway.  

 

You're misinterpreting what "external breath" means.  (I've read NHJ o'plenty.)   I was almost going to tell a crude story about breath & dining with exes, but,   Check out my other writings on the neurological aspects of anapanasati.  The differences...the threshold of air turbulence is key, that is one aspect to conquer.  Keeping respiration going when you dont feel breath at all - yet all the motions are there, continuing - this is the key to achieving the ongoing sustainable states of quasi"brightness" that one feels during a breath hold, eits just that such a stoppage is unsustainable and you run into hypoxia relatively quickly. 

 

Max teaches the "One Breath" which I learned to do before having met him, and it is precisely this mindful rolling of inhale to exhale, exhale to inhale, smoothing it out until it disappears but its still going.  Then you can sit in this state for an hour or two once you're used to existing in the state - whereas, how long are you really going to go on a breath hold before?  Breath holds are for manifesting something when the tactic is needed, these meditative "pauses" in breathing & respiration because it feels like one's energy is waxing (but its a minor waxing, that's the thing, which was sort of the point of my story I didn't tell ) are a bit counterproductive, because in a sense it is an unsmoothness in the yinyang transitions.

[RiverSnake]

 and sexual energy is Kundalini. 

 

 

IME, this statement is bullshit. 

[Cheshire Cat]

IME, this statement is bullshit. 

 

[taoguy]

I'm a jack of all trades, it was part of my sampling the fare at the chi restaurant. Deciding which foods to live off of....which to consume copious amounts of, which I just need a dash of. The human body is fantastic and amazing, man have only 2 arms and 2 legs but still so many ways one can cultivate.

 

My path is my own just like Max's is his own. Maybe he got something different out of it when Jenny taught him the shaking practice. Maybe I got something different out of it, too. But I dont teach this stuff anyway.

 

You're misinterpreting what "external breath" means. (I've read NHJ o'plenty.) I was almost going to tell a crude story about breath & dining with exes, but, Check out my other writings on the neurological aspects of anapanasati. The differences...the threshold of air turbulence is key, that is one aspect to conquer. Keeping respiration going when you dont feel breath at all - yet all the motions are there, continuing - this is the key to achieving the ongoing sustainable states of quasi"brightness" that one feels during a breath hold, eits just that such a stoppage is unsustainable and you run into hypoxia relatively quickly.

 

Max teaches the "One Breath" which I learned to do before having met him, and it is precisely this mindful rolling of inhale to exhale, exhale to inhale, smoothing it out until it disappears but its still going. Then you can sit in this state for an hour or two once you're used to existing in the state - whereas, how long are you really going to go on a breath hold before? Breath holds are for manifesting something when the tactic is needed, these meditative "pauses" in breathing & respiration because it feels like one's energy is waxing (but its a minor waxing, that's the thing, which was sort of the point of my story I didn't tell ) are a bit counterproductive, because in a sense it is an unsmoothness in the yinyang transitions.

Not sure where you read that. NHJ teaches 呼hu (movement) and 息xi (rest). He says the cycle is chu-jin-xi (出进息), meaning out-in-rest. He then teaches that when we stop exhaling, we reside in xi (rest), with solely internal breath.

 

Where did I understand wrong? Are you saying that the xi he mentions is not found after the in breath? Because that doesn't make sense at all to me? He says the bardo period between two breaths is the very space.

 

From what you're saying, you seem to be talking about the state of 气 qi and not 息xi that NHJ teaches. In qi, it is as you say... in and out breath are imperceptible and the entire body's pores feeling like it is breathing. Is that what you refer to? Then it's probably not xi but qi.

 

So... one breath is still inferior to xi then? I remember ajahn brahm also taught that the breath becomes "silky" or joyful in this way, which leads to the visual nimitta appearing.

[joeblast]

There's perhaps a half a dozen translation passages from ymaa Embryonic Breathing that are the simple keytags I derived my methods from, that and anatomy books.  There's some things I didnt necessarily agree with him about, and pauses in breathwork in general are one of them.

 

Those little pauses just prevent you from experiencing a giant moment-pause that gets to last most of a session, one cant hold his breath for an hour, hour and a half eh?    I dunno, I never sat around thinking about the pause, I sat there for months on end trying to execute a perfect breath when I was figuring this stuff out.  Not a lot of people seem to dig on the rote approach, because meditation is boring or something

[taoguy]

There's perhaps a half a dozen translation passages from ymaa Embryonic Breathing that are the simple keytags I derived my methods from, that and anatomy books. There's some things I didnt necessarily agree with him about, and pauses in breathwork in general are one of them.

 

Those little pauses just prevent you from experiencing a giant moment-pause that gets to last most of a session, one cant hold his breath for an hour, hour and a half eh? I dunno, I never sat around thinking about the pause, I sat there for months on end trying to execute a perfect breath when I was figuring this stuff out. Not a lot of people seem to dig on the rote approach, because meditation is boring or something

Ah... so the xi does come after perfecting the breath right? Which means qi--> xi?

[joeblast]

xi is not Tai Xi

[taoguy]

xi is not Tai Xi

 

Do you happen to know the chinese characters for Tai Xi? I'd like to read up on it.

[joeblast]

I dont, sorry - no reading or writing chinese for me. 

[Taoist Texts]

Do you happen to know the chinese characters for Tai Xi? I'd like to read up on it.

胎息

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/ttx/ttx04.htm